Asikoo wrote: »

But that’s exactly the problem, we keep defining DPS value purely by theoretical peak damage and ignore context. Oakensoul builds do lower damage, yes, but they open up content for players who might not be able to manage full rotations, barswapping, and constant buff upkeep. That accessibility is the point. It’s not trying to replace high-end builds, it’s providing a bridge to them.

As I've explained, that bridge leads to a dead-end. At some point, if you're not doing at least 35% of group dps in regular dungeon comps, you're not carrying your weight. That's all fine in base game hardmodes and non-hardmode vet DLC dungeons, but if you attempt to do harder content in a sub-par build, people will get frustrated for missing damage checks, and you will be guilty.

There's no standard of accessibility when it comes to clearing harder content; you either carry your weight, or you get ostracized. If you don't like it, you should stop weighing the team down by not queueing for that content.

Asikoo wrote: »

And frankly, if we’re really worried about low skill ceilings, where’s the outrage over 1bar Arcanists spamming Beam for 130k+? That takes barely more input than a HA build, yet it’s perfectly accepted, why? Only because it does more DPS?

Yes.

Asikoo wrote: »

This isn’t about preserving high skill. It’s about maintaining a culture where "big numbers" matter more than inclusivity or fun. And when the game keeps punishing accessible builds instead of overtuned ones, it’s no wonder we end up with 6 Arcanists in every pug group and a shrinking pool of casuals in endgame.

If balance only means chasing peak damage, we’ve already lost sight of what makes ESO’s combat great.

More damage = faster fights = fewer mechanics = fewer chances to die = fewer deaths = more damage. You won't ever be able to get rid of this fundamental loop on the basis that dealing damage is literally the core mechanic on every single fight. This is every combat loop in every combat encounter in every game.

Asikoo wrote: »

And honestly, we should ask ourselves: what kind of community are we building here? One where a player who runs 2bars and parses 180k, or a 1bar Arcanist who hits 130+k, is celebrated and welcomed into score pushes and World Record attempts, while a Oakensoul player, doing 95–100k, gets gatekept out of Hard Mode Trials entirely, even when they have no interest in score runs at all?

1-bar Arcanists are not welcome in score pushes and WR attempts. If you see someone doing it claiming to be a "score-pusher", they're lying.

Also, hard-mode in trials is an entirely different beast compared to hard-mode in dungeons. again, you're comparing 180k Arc vs 100k Oakensoul; the Oakensoul player is literally 45% worse.

If you're in Oakensoul, I know you'd be 45% worse compared to a meta Arcanist, so why would I keep you in the group when meta Arcs are dime-a-dozen? I want to clear the content, so I want more damage = faster fights = fewer mechanics = fewer chances to die = fewer deaths = more damage. If I wasn't the group leader, why would I want to stay in the group with an Oakensoul player who everyone knows wouldn't be carrying their weight? Why should I give 100% effort when someone else insists on 55% and still expecting 100% of rewards?

Asikoo wrote: »

Why is it okay to have low-effort high-output builds like 1bar Beam Arcanists dominate group content, but not okay for someone to run a simpler build that fits their needs and still clears content? If we only care about DPS numbers, and not player goals, team cooperation, or actual clear rates, then we’re not chasing balance, we’re just chasing elitism.

I guarantee you that if Oakensoul builds got buffed to be as good as 1-bar Beam Arcanists in terms of damage, we'd treat both more equally.

Look, if you just want to do vet dungeons, go nuts, run any build you want; but if you're chasing hardmodes of the dungeons from Dragon Bones onwards, people will give you the side-eye if you choose to continue using Oakensoul. Same goes for trials from Sunspire onwards.

The thing is, power isn't what holds oakensoul players back. As content creators have shown, individual skill still matters with one bar builds.

Trial players sometime meme HM content and even trifectas with 1-bar builds. This shows power isn't the issue.

So why does prejudice exist towards one-bar players? Because frankly, they often just not great gamers in terms of action mechanics. They tend to be out of position a lot, are slow to react and stand in red a lot. I'm not shaming anyone because THERE SHOULD BE NO SHAME FOR BEING BAD AT A VIDEO GAME!!!

I'm not saying all 1-bar players aren't great at ESO. I'm in a couple of small guilds which makes it easy to know players -- unlike the 500 player guilds. One is a tri guild in which I probably represent the floor! No one-bar builds there. it is 100000% meta, perform or gtfo (f doesn't stand for what you think it does there).

The other guild is a sweaty casual guild with members who are in tri cores, but also a lot of much more casual members. This guild has a few one bar players, and there's no problem because they can execute the mechs perfectly. They're good gamers who happen to prefer one bar builds. I just want to be clear that I am generalizing. But also, they perform fine. They don't need a buff.

So if someone feels a one bar build is holding them back, they should probably look within and either find ways to improve or just be comfortable with it. This is a competitive environment. Not everyone can have a gold star by default. And it doesn't really matter anyway because it's just a game. Plus we're talking a tiny percentage of the content in which this is actually relevant. Be humble and have fun.

Sincerely,

Mr. Old Squirrel with figuratively fat fingers who has figured out how to keep up by constantly looking within for solutions. (including asking others for advice and accepting criticism.)

Asikoo wrote: »

What if the developers added a new passive effect to the Oakensoul Ring like this:


"Increase the damage of your Heavy Attacks by 10% for every other Oakensoul user within 12 meters of you."

Image from ESO-Hub.com, edited by your friendly neighborhood OP! let the 3WW begin!



Why this change would be amazing:
This bonus would encourage Oakensoul players to team up and play together rather than being isolated or excluded from group content. It would create a sense of synergy and community among Oakensoul users, allowing them to form their own effective groups with a unique playstyle built around Heavy Attacks.

This would be a win-win for everyone. Oakensoul players would be empowered to create their own groups, just like other players often suggest when gatekeeping these builds with comments like “we don’t want to carry easy-mode builds, make your own group.” With a mechanic that rewards Oakensoul cooperation, those players could do exactly that, form focused, synergized groups that don’t rely on anyone else’s approval to perform well or feel welcome.

This change wouldn't just be a buff — it would add identity and group value to Oakensoul users, encouraging teamwork without compromising the accessibility and simplicity that make the ring so popular in the first place.

Note:

I honestly can't wait to hear all the excuses now. If the developers actually made this change, and of course, they probably won’t, because it would be fun, it would bring joy back to Oakensoul players, and it would break the gatekeeping, but if they did...

What excuse would you have left to oppose it?

my excuses to oppose it are:

1) there is no cap on damage increases
2) its not restricted to PVE damage
3) its not restricted to group members
4) the % damage increase is too high
5) It stacks with empower

explanations:

1) No cap on damage increases means that in trial groups you would be granted up to 120% damage boost when stacked on a boss pluse empower. Depending on the trial and mechanics this could lead to trial groups requiring oakensoul ONLY in groups to the exclusion of all others. Meaning that while your preferred build is not preferential, others would be "gatekept out" all this would do would be to shift the goal post.
2) In PVP this would be broken. in a stacked zerg of 40+ players you could achieve over 400% damage increases, and would be the meta in PVP, and again, ruin any build diveristy, again causing more gatekeeping.
3) As mentioned in 1 and 2, its not limited to people in a group, as mentioned in PVP this would be broken, same applies to PVE in the Overland. its hard enough to get credit in an overland boss kill if there are a lot of people there, but if this were impletementd then it would be required to run inorder to come even close to getting credit.
4) Percentage increases in ESO are the most powerful boosts available in the game, they are exponentional increases and not additive. there are reasons why the vast majority of them are flat rates now and not % based. The skills, gear, and CP that are % based often have limits and downsides, or have low increases.
5) Empower is still on the item, which in PVE is arguably one of the more powerful buffs in the game. Adding in your increase on top of empower well its too much.


how to fix. Cap the damage increase, limit to group members, limit to damage versus monters, it replaces Empower.

example: while in combat gain 10% damage increase to Heavy Attack damage vs monsters for every other living user of this mythic within your group that is within 12 meters of you. This can stack up to 10 times. Empower can not be active while this mythic is equipped. (all other bonuses and downsides would remain the same)

this would balance it out more, and with stacking it would make it better than regular Oakensoul withouth making it busted, It would make content where stacking is not optimal a chore, but that would be a reasonable downside, and smaller groups would get downsides as well. I would also make this a new mythic vs standard Oakensoul, so that both options could exist, but not be used at the same time.


regarding 1 bar Arcanist issue. why not run it? if its better than oakensoul and only needs 1 bar what is wrong with the option? isn't more 1 bar options better than just one? why not have build diversity? why are you so set on changing oakensoul when its best for the community as a whole that new 1 bar mythics and skills are released in its place?

Asikoo wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

"...
I guarantee you that if Oakensoul builds got buffed to be as good as 1bar Beam Arcanists in terms of damage, we'd treat both more equally. ..."

So… maybe we actually agree? Because that’s all I’ve been saying from the start.

Nope. I'm saying they'd be treated more equally, but I never said it'd be for better for Oakensoul players. For what it's worth, maybe the 1-bar Arcanists will be ostracized too.

Asikoo wrote: »

If 1bar Arcanists get respect because they can perform well on one bar, then why can't Oakensoul users get the same chance, especially those who also perform well within what their builds allow?

Because 1-bar Arcanists who perform well within what their builds allow deal more damage than Oakensoul users who perform well within what their builds allow. "What their builds allow" is the key phrase here. If you're punching enemies with no armour on and timing your light attacks perfectly, you're doing a great job "within what your build allows"; that's still garbage damage.

Asikoo wrote: »

The problem isn’t just balance, it’s how the community treats players based on assumptions, not results. If we would treat both equally based on performance, then that’s exactly what I’m asking for too: a buff to Oakensoul so that all 1bar builds can perform on a similar level. That way, we’re not gatekeeping based on how someone plays, but on how well they play.

There'd still be gatekeeping. It's just this time it'll be the 1-bar players vs the 2-bar players. Why? Because 130k dps from a 1-bar build is still 28% lower than 180k dps from a meta Arcanist. You can maybe push the threshold of non-acceptable dungeons to pug to Wrathstone onwards.

Also, you seem to be repeatedly missing the point that no one cares how you play or how well you play; people want results, and that means damage numbers. If I'm a group leader and I'm looking for a dps, I'd be filtering by damage numbers and not by your playstyle. If you can deal competitive damage on an Oakensoul build, hell yeah get in, but if you can't (and I know you can't), I'd pick a meta Arcanist over you. It's not my job to accomodate for your playstyle.

Asikoo wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Gosh, this thread makes me really glad to be a PvE soloist. I went to Oakensoul primarily to be free of active 'buff management' and ridiculously short buff times. After the dumpster fire that was Update 35, I tried Oakensoul as a desperate last effort to keep myself from rage quitting ESO. Fell in love with the ring and haven't taken it off since.

So I'll continue to happily solo Alliance zone WBs and Alliance zone normal dungeons and have a great time running with an Oakenelf and her companion tank.

Don't care about or even know how to spell tryals or vette.

If all I wanted was heavy attack, I'd just keep Solar Barrage (Templar Dawn's Wrath) up for full time empower and tweak a couple CP's.

Totally get where you’re coming from. Oakensoul really is a lifeline for many of us.

But that’s exactly why some of us are frustrated with the current state of things. If the goal is accessibility and simplicity, then shouldn't Oakensoul users deserve the same potential that other "easy" setups have, like 1bar Arcanists?

I mean, even in casual content like zone bosses or normal dungeons, a 1-bar Arcanist with a beam can delete everything in their path, often hitting 80~160k DPS with ease. Meanwhile, Oakensoul builds struggle to break 50~60k, even when fully optimized (normal game). That’s a pretty big gap for two playstyles that are supposed to offer a similar kind of simplified, accessible experience.

HatchetHaro wrote: »

"...
I guarantee you that if Oakensoul builds got buffed to be as good as 1bar Beam Arcanists in terms of damage, we'd treat both more equally. ..."

So… maybe we actually agree? Because that’s all I’ve been saying from the start.

If 1bar Arcanists get respect because they can perform well on one bar, then why can't Oakensoul users get the same chance, especially those who also perform well within what their builds allow?

The problem isn’t just balance, it’s how the community treats players based on assumptions, not results. If we would treat both equally based on performance, then that’s exactly what I’m asking for too: a buff to Oakensoul so that all 1bar builds can perform on a similar level. That way, we’re not gatekeeping based on what someone uses, but on how well they play.

I would like to point out that accessability isn't a focus for ZOS. otherwise we would have had colorblind modes at launch, and they wouldnt have color based mechanics in game.

I get that Oakensoul is an accessibility item for many people, and its an easy build. but there are other issues that remain un adressed. I for one have trouble identifying mobs and bosses by name due to this, as often the names blend into the backround, and its NOT something i can natively change, and the same applies to many other attacks that are not AOE ground affects. I still deal with it and do the best i can.

Also, consider this. You can't force players to play with you. If you want to join an existing group that has a certain goal in mind, and your input won't help them reach said goals, then its reasonable to be excluded. Does it stink that you didnt make the cut? yes. Is it fair? thats subjective (always is), is it reasonable? yes. forcing a player to play with people they dont want to isnt exactly conductive to a good enviroment and will lead to escalation of issues and ultimately cause problems.

As is the case of dungeon speed runners, fake tanks, and other issues of a controversal issue here on the forums... the best thing to do is to find a group of like minded players, create a guild if needed, and play with those players for your content.

personally i dont care what you build is, i just want to play how i want to play. i dont want ZOS, the meta, or other players to dictate how i play. I will accept suggestions, and work on improving, and offer the same. I only really will oppose ideas and topics that, for me, raise major concerns about balance and gameplay.

Asikoo wrote: »

“People want results”, that’s easy to understand. Well, I’ll keep making my arguments until every single class can show those same results. That’s what I call balance!

But in this case what you are asking for is the ability to gain the same results as 2-bar Arcanists while still running your Oakensoul build. That's a massive disparity in this effort-result ratio. That's not balance; that's delusion.

If I put in extra effort into learning my rotations and timing my barswaps and keeping my buffs up, I expect more damage. If someone can do the same without having to do all that, then everyone would be using Oakensoul, and you'd see a massive decrease in players because now doing damage is no longer challenging, so there would no longer be a goal for players to actually work for.

You need a crash-course on how game progression systems work. If over 10 years of active gameplay and meta shifts ends up in everyone just holding left-click for maximum damage, that's not accessibility; that's insanity.

OP: describes Oakensoul as a training wheel/bridge item (sure, I agree)

OP: compares their oakensoul lightning heavy attack setup to a NON oakensoul one bar fatecarver setup with subclassing (they must do the same damage, just because I said so!)

At least just say you want your specific setup to be strong without having to make any modifications, and don't hide behind this facetious championing of "alternate playstyles" when your suggested buff to Oakensoul was extremely narrow and only targeted to your personal playstyle anyway and not one bar users as a whole.

Oakensoul used to be an accessibility item that meant people who for example had some form of disability, lack of ability or otherwise were just not that adept at playing the game (compared to some people who's entire personality it is to exist entirely on the game - You know who you/they are) could therefore participate in some of the games more challenging content. I was one such player. When Oakensoul first got nerfed, I felt it.

Actual Edit: Oakensoul is there to ease the stress/sweat of buff management for those who struggle, not create sweaty 1 bar heavy attack gankers for PVP

Some people in this community really forgot to do the growing up part of getting older and think it's their divine duty to sit and gate-keep how other people play and enjoy the game because it isn't how they choose to do so. And so forum posts get made, complaints get shrieked like it's 2004 Xbox Live Lobby again and the people who needed the support of such things suffer and get pushed to the side to appease the squeakers and loudest and more toxic members of the community.

doabhi wrote: »

Oakensoul used to be an accessibility item that meant people who for example had some form of disability, lack of ability or otherwise were just not that adept at playing the game (compared to some people who's entire personality it is to exist entirely on the game - You know who you/they are) could therefore participate in some of the games more challenging content. I was one such player. When Oakensoul first got nerfed, I felt it.

Some people in this community really forgot to do the growing up part of getting older and think it's their divine duty to sit and gate-keep how other people play and enjoy the game because it isn't how they choose to do so. And so forum posts get made, complaints get shrieked like it's 2004 Xbox Live Lobby again and the people who needed the support of such things suffer and get pushed to the side to appease the squeakers and loudest and more toxic members of the community.

@doabhi I want to address this because I'm getting the impression that you think OP is on your side, somehow a champion of accessibility. They've spent multiple threads complaining that there are setups that are both easier/as easy as Oakensoul heavy attack used to be and hitting higher numbers and calling for those to be nerfed. OP is a gatekeeper as well, just of a different flavour. No playstyle can be allowed to perform better than their own. All their posts are basically fatecarver nerf threads, disguised as a plea for accessibility.

doabhi wrote: »

Neither agreeing or disagreeing with OP, just saying what Oakensoul is/was all about as a reminder that it's there to help take the strain of buff management so a player can focus more on the task at hand without the need to become the furious sweaty key tapping guy meme.

@doabhi if you look at their most recent comment, they've fully wrapped around to arguing that their Oakensoul heavy attack setup needs to do equal or more damage because "they press more buttons". Not directed at you specifically, but if that doesn't betray the true sentiment of the OP I don't know what else it would take. OP is very much a gatekeeper, they just happen to be on the wrong side of the gate at this point in time.

Asikoo wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Asikoo wrote: »

“People want results”, that’s easy to understand. Well, I’ll keep making my arguments until every single class can show those same results. That’s what I call balance!

But in this case what you are asking for is the ability to gain the same results as 2-bar Arcanists while still running your Oakensoul build. That's a massive disparity in this effort-result ratio. That's not balance; that's delusion.

If I put in extra effort into learning my rotations and timing my barswaps and keeping my buffs up, I expect more damage. If someone can do the same without having to do all that, then everyone would be using Oakensoul, and you'd see a massive decrease in players because now doing damage is no longer challenging, so there would no longer be a goal for players to actually work for.

You need a crash-course on how game progression systems work. If over 10 years of active gameplay and meta shifts ends up in everyone just holding left-click for maximum damage, that's not accessibility; that's insanity.

I think you're missing the point a bit. You're talking about 2bar effort vs 1bar effort, but the issue is that some 1bar builds (like Arcanist) already achieve 130K+ DPS with barely any rotation at all. No weaving, no buff juggling, no bar swapping, just hit a 2 buttons.

First of all, even 1-bar Arcanists have to light attack. Velothi Ur-Mage's Amulet may decrease light-attack damage, but light attacks still generate ult and apply enchantments, so there's no reason not to continue light attacking.

But at this point, with your incessant complaining about Oakensoul power vs 1-bar Arcanist power as well as your constant comparisons between the two, I have a fantastic solution for you:

Just play 1-bar Arcanist! By your metrics, it's just as accessible! You get to have more damage, and by your accounts you'd also be more widely accepted within groups! Just play 1-bar Arcanist!

Asikoo wrote: »

kevkj wrote: »

You've been disingenuously comparing optimized non Oakensoul setups to your non optimized Oakensoul one the entire time over multiple threads. If we're doing that, then one bar heavy attack pet sorcs can actually hit 138k on the current patch. Perhaps I would be more sympathetic to your argument if you at least tried to be sincere in presenting your arguments and evidence.

When it was at its best, I too enjoyed using Oakensoul heavy attack. Then other setups for the same playstyle became better and I adjusted accordingly (a change of 6 pieces of gear and a REDUCTION in active skills to cast). You instead have chosen to invest your time into masquerading as a saviour of every one bar build (which I would like to reiterate does not need to have oakensoul).

Let me clarify my perspective:

1. I genuinely love Oakensorc. It’s not just a convenience thing for me — I enjoy the way it plays more than any other setup.
2. The problem is that I’m constantly being gatekept or excluded from content because of that choice.
3. I’m told I can’t join guild HM runs or groups unless I give up my build, even though I can do mechanics and contribute meaningfully.
4. Meanwhile, other 1bar builds, especially 1bar Arcanist are doing far more DPS with less effort, and that imbalance doesn’t seem fair.
5. I paid for the Arcanist too, but I don’t enjoy it as much. And yet I feel like I’m being “forced” into it because the gap is just too big.

I’m not trying to be a "savior" of 1bar builds. I’m just a player who wants to use what I love without being punished for it. You can call that ego, but for me it’s about build diversity and playstyle choice. It feels like we’ve reached a point where only one of those options is considered "valid," and that’s frustrating.

If you’ve moved on to a better setup and enjoy it, more power to you, but please don’t assume bad faith just because I’m still holding out hope for a bit more balance and acceptance for alternatives like Oakensorc.

Call me selfish, call me whatever you want, but this balance isn't fair. It's ridiculous. It makes no sense... it's just stupid!

Okay, I'll give you another chance. What about Oakensoul is it that you specifically enjoy? The dazzling visual effects? Do you open your character sheet after every combat encounter to make sure it's still equipped? When I say I made changes to my setup, it is still a one bar lightning heavy attack sorc. I just updated the gear to do better damage (one of the changes being to drop oakensoul). Don't tell me why you really enjoy one bar heavy attack sorc (I and many others do as well), explain why the Oakensoul ring specifically is key to the enjoyment. Once again, I am not calling for every Oakensoul user to immediately destroy theirs. I still keep it on some characters, but when I feel like I need more damage it's not what I use. Do you feel pressured to use a second bar if you don't have Oakensoul on? Don't! No one can force you to use your second bar. Unbind the bar swap key!

To preface any justification about buffs, you can source Major Brutality through Banner (fully passive). Empower and Minor Force through Contingency (cast at the same frequency as Wall of Elements). Major Savagery through a front bar Camo Hunter or Mage Light (moving Relentless Focus to the back bar, where it just generates a passive benefit).

Asikoo wrote: »

1. My fingers start to hurt if I maintain long, intense rotations, it’s just not comfortable for me after a while.
2. I sometimes deal with lag or input delay, which makes tight rotations or bar swapping unreliable and frustrating.
3. I simply can't sustain long, intricate rotations without it becoming physically tiring or mentally draining.

I specifically asked you why you need Oakensoul, and instead you tell me why you (as well as I and many others) play one bar heavy attack sorc (or fatecarver for that matter). You keep drawing this false equivalence between one bar and Oakensoul despite repeatedly being told the difference.

I and several others have been trying to explain to you that if you swap out oakensoul, you can have a setup with FEWER active skills that hits HIGHER damage but still plays the same. You're clearly even open to the idea of making small changes, as you yourself have chosen to add Relentless Focus to your setup, recognizing the increased damage that brings. If you would just get over equating the Oakensoul ring with a one bar setup, you would be almost there.

Again, why do you love Oakensoul? Not One bar builds, not lightning heavy attack builds, not pet sorc builds. But Oakensoul. Did it raise you from birth as a single parent? Is it sentimental reasons because it got you your first trifecta? I too, keep my first Oakensoul ring in a storage coffer for sentimental reasons.