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I went onto Skinny Cheek's website and noticed something odd about the latest patch 46 builds....
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Elvenheart✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Sadly, I can’t use Banner Bearer because I find the big stick that holds up the banner to be very uncomfortable sticking up out of my back.4 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭DenverRalphy wrote: »DenverRalphy wrote: »I'm still trying to wrap my head around Banner Bearer being in those builds.
I mean, I get WHY it's on there for individual purposes. But in practice, in group content multiple players running BB with the same buffs because they're meta results in a lot of wasted buffs because they don't stack. So all you need is one player running with it.
It's used almost entirely for the individual crux gen. The raid lead just takes advantage of it to fill in some buff gaps.DenverRalphy wrote: »I'm still trying to wrap my head around Banner Bearer being in those builds.
I mean, I get WHY it's on there for individual purposes. But in practice, in group content multiple players running BB with the same buffs because they're meta results in a lot of wasted buffs because they don't stack. So all you need is one player running with it.
Banner Bearer generates 1 Crux every 5 seconds if you use the Class Mastery Script as a main Arcanist. This Crux is generated passively, which basically means that you can use 3 Crux Fatecarver more often since you waste less time using Flail.
This is also why every build that relies on Fatecarver for damage is superior if run by a main Arcanist.
Yeah, I'm aware of why it's used. But you can get the same class mastery with other scribed skills. Won't require 2 skill bar slots.
The tradeoff may be that you have to cast it in your rotation, but the results would be more beneficial to all. Less selfish, less waste, a tad more work, and benefits everyone.
It's entirely to save gcds. Time spent casting is time not spent beaming.6 -
CAB_LifeClass RepresentativeApplying punitive levels of nerfing to the Templar beam while buffing Arcanist beam through passives and gear beyond nuclear levels is one of the biggest head scratchers of this patch. Idk what the dev team are doing or thinking and don’t even get upset by their wild balance swings anymore. I feel like there’s too many cooks in the kitchen.Fitness/ Gaming/ Fantasy: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2qoTV-kge_bU90i2lgkyvA4 -
ApoAlaia✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Applying punitive levels of nerfing to the Templar beam while buffing Arcanist beam through passives and gear beyond nuclear levels is one of the biggest head scratchers of this patch. Idk what the dev team are doing or thinking and don’t even get upset by their wild balance swings anymore. I feel like there’s too many cooks in the kitchen.
I don't either.
I enjoy it when it 'swings in my favour' - like the current patch, because to me personally depending of what kind of day I'm having 'imbalance' feels a lot like how other players experience 'balance' - and when it doesn't - which happens quite often - I just do guild-related chores in ESO and go find my fix of fun elsewhere.
Edited by ApoAlaia on June 18, 2025 9:44AM1 -
ADarklore✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I've always found these threads interesting... because we have so many people saying, "ESO content is too easy" and yet they will spend all their time trying to develop builds to make it easier, to get through content faster... and then say, "ZOS, why can't you balance the game... why is it so easy?" When the MAJORITY of the players aren't doing this... but those that are, tend to be the most vocal about it. Yet, they are doing it to themselves... and I think subclassing has really shown that even more.CP: 2078 ** ESO+ 2025 Content Pass ** ~~ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****
~~Started Playing: May 2015 | Stopped Playing: July 2025~~8 -
Gadamlub14_ESO✭✭✭✭I've always found these threads interesting... because we have so many people saying, "ESO content is too easy" and yet they will spend all their time trying to develop builds to make it easier, to get through content faster... and then say, "ZOS, why can't you balance the game... why is it so easy?" When the MAJORITY of the players aren't doing this... but those that are, tend to be the most vocal about it. Yet, they are doing it to themselves... and I think subclassing has really shown that even more.
i mean, i still remember when Zos did a 50% damage nerf to all player cast DOT effects because one guy cheesed a trial. the question of balance has never really been about content being too easy or hard, thats a different debate entirely, but more trying to figure out why their balance changes over the years appears to be dictated by a spinning dart board in the office when they werent obviously nerfing a previous gear set or mythic right before releasing a new even better one.3 -
Gabriel_H✭✭✭✭✭Arc gives cleave, pen, a unique 5% damage done buff, and easy access to major prophecy, along with a pretty cheap high damage ultimate.
Templar gives cleave, extra weapon/spell damage and extra resistance, reduced cost to all skills/ulti, sundered status effect on demand, major brutality, major savagery, cheap AoE high damage ulti, and a powerful execute.
What's your point - other than bringing one arcanist along might be a good idea?I mean, go look at something like Ossein Cage rankings at ESO Logs and filter by DPS. Out of the 95 entries(at the moment I post this), 91 are Arcanists.
DPS only is a poor metric. It doesn't account for deaths, or completing mechs, or rezzing.0 -
Gabriel_H✭✭✭✭✭The beam is so overpowered, and because you light attack less, it synergizes well with Velothi, which has the extra advantage of not needing to slot-a skill for minor force, and use the slot for something else, unlike other classes. It's a perfect combination that's a step above everything else. The issue is not just with balance, and how Herald of the Tome leaves everything in the dust, it's with the playstyle: it revolves around the beam, and I bet I'm not the only DD who doesn't enjoy the rotation. I wish other subslass combos were as powerful, with a similar amount of effort in the rotation, but sadly that's not the case, and hasn't been since the Arcanist came out. There have been so many posts with ESO logs statistics calling the attention of the devs over the last two years, but I think they gave up on balancing, and you either play Arc to be the most effective or you play something else and do less damage (provided your group doesn't require optimization).
What, for example, is your dps in vLC with your sub-classed arcanist vs another dps spec without sub-classing?
Just an FYI: ESOlogs current standings (prior to U-46) don't have arcanists as the top dps, just the most played.
I don't have trial numbers only dummy parses, but don't disregard the point about the rotation difficulty: as it stands you can't do the same numbers with the same casts, swaps and so on, with another spec. My closest was still 15k behind and it was a complex roto with necro/nb/warden. Also, don't disregard the huge mitigation arcanists have without sacrificing a single thing in their bars, simply by having the pragmatic morph of the beam, which is what almost all DDs are using in live content, and the heal from flail. It's an OP kit: more damage, easier to play, baked in healing/mitigation, nothing else can really compare.
I'm not denying they have those things, I'm saying they do not help in content anywhere near as much as people think. Taking healing/mitigation - you ever looked at ESOlogs and seen the overheal from healers in trials - ~90%.1 -
Gabriel_H✭✭✭✭✭Sometimes doing as much damage as possible, as efficiently as possible, IS the goal of the group.
Then their goal is too narrow: Sometimes doing as much damage as possible, without anyone dying, completing the mechs, and killing the boss, as efficiently as possible, IS the goal of the group
That's a very different goal. And does mean that in-content the differential between the meta and the 99% meta is a missed key press.
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Jaimeh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The beam is so overpowered, and because you light attack less, it synergizes well with Velothi, which has the extra advantage of not needing to slot-a skill for minor force, and use the slot for something else, unlike other classes. It's a perfect combination that's a step above everything else. The issue is not just with balance, and how Herald of the Tome leaves everything in the dust, it's with the playstyle: it revolves around the beam, and I bet I'm not the only DD who doesn't enjoy the rotation. I wish other subslass combos were as powerful, with a similar amount of effort in the rotation, but sadly that's not the case, and hasn't been since the Arcanist came out. There have been so many posts with ESO logs statistics calling the attention of the devs over the last two years, but I think they gave up on balancing, and you either play Arc to be the most effective or you play something else and do less damage (provided your group doesn't require optimization).
What, for example, is your dps in vLC with your sub-classed arcanist vs another dps spec without sub-classing?
Just an FYI: ESOlogs current standings (prior to U-46) don't have arcanists as the top dps, just the most played.
I don't have trial numbers only dummy parses, but don't disregard the point about the rotation difficulty: as it stands you can't do the same numbers with the same casts, swaps and so on, with another spec. My closest was still 15k behind and it was a complex roto with necro/nb/warden. Also, don't disregard the huge mitigation arcanists have without sacrificing a single thing in their bars, simply by having the pragmatic morph of the beam, which is what almost all DDs are using in live content, and the heal from flail. It's an OP kit: more damage, easier to play, baked in healing/mitigation, nothing else can really compare.
I'm not denying they have those things, I'm saying they do not help in content anywhere near as much as people think. Taking healing/mitigation - you ever looked at ESOlogs and seen the overheal from healers in trials - ~90%.
I think that's highly group dependent, but regardless, there are fights where you need your own mitigation: portal mechanics and so on, and it's very useful there, again without sacrificing anything else damage-wise. It's not how high the difference is--you can sweat hard on another combo and reach decent numbers, sweat being the operative word, but you will still miss all the extra advantages the arc has. It's not a coincidence that most groups have a majority of arc DD compositions. It's too good not to run it. And to be clear, I'm not saying they should be hammer nerfed, only that other specs are brought on par, variety is a good thing.1 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Arc gives cleave, pen, a unique 5% damage done buff, and easy access to major prophecy, along with a pretty cheap high damage ultimate.
Templar gives cleave, extra weapon/spell damage and extra resistance, reduced cost to all skills/ulti, sundered status effect on demand, major brutality, major savagery, cheap AoE high damage ulti, and a powerful execute.
What's your point - other than bringing one arcanist along might be a good idea?I mean, go look at something like Ossein Cage rankings at ESO Logs and filter by DPS. Out of the 95 entries(at the moment I post this), 91 are Arcanists.
DPS only is a poor metric. It doesn't account for deaths, or completing mechs, or rezzing.
A plar in the current meta is also an arc. You swap beams from green to yellow at 28%. But you play base arc so you can run banner.
In the new trial at least, the bosses (2&3) also enrage if they are brought closer than 18m from each other. Beam goes 28m and you can hit both.
Why would someone need to rez if they're getting the trifecta? Besides, I play with most of those top leaderboard folks (on PC NA). They play the mechanics incredibly well, typically get the most rezzes in training runs, and if they don't rez it's because they're handling some other wipe mechanics when someone else is rezzing.3 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Sometimes doing as much damage as possible, as efficiently as possible, IS the goal of the group.
Then their goal is too narrow: Sometimes doing as much damage as possible, without anyone dying, completing the mechs, and killing the boss, as efficiently as possible, IS the goal of the group
That's a very different goal. And does mean that in-content the differential between the meta and the 99% meta is a missed key press.
We do the damage to skip the mechs so we don't have to do them. The goal is to clear as fast as possible, ideally with nobody dying but sometimes it just happens.0 -
twisttop138✭✭✭✭DenverRalphy wrote: »DenverRalphy wrote: »I'm still trying to wrap my head around Banner Bearer being in those builds.
I mean, I get WHY it's on there for individual purposes. But in practice, in group content multiple players running BB with the same buffs because they're meta results in a lot of wasted buffs because they don't stack. So all you need is one player running with it.
It's used almost entirely for the individual crux gen. The raid lead just takes advantage of it to fill in some buff gaps.DenverRalphy wrote: »I'm still trying to wrap my head around Banner Bearer being in those builds.
I mean, I get WHY it's on there for individual purposes. But in practice, in group content multiple players running BB with the same buffs because they're meta results in a lot of wasted buffs because they don't stack. So all you need is one player running with it.
Banner Bearer generates 1 Crux every 5 seconds if you use the Class Mastery Script as a main Arcanist. This Crux is generated passively, which basically means that you can use 3 Crux Fatecarver more often since you waste less time using Flail.
This is also why every build that relies on Fatecarver for damage is superior if run by a main Arcanist.
Yeah, I'm aware of why it's used. But you can get the same class mastery with other scribed skills. Won't require 2 skill bar slots.
The tradeoff may be that you have to cast it in your rotation, but the results would be more beneficial to all. Less selfish, less waste, a tad more work, and benefits everyone.
We're using different scribed skill as of today. Mine will be heroism or courage, I can't remember. The others will have different ones. You're right about wasted buffs, but not everyone has the exact same.0 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭twisttop138 wrote: »DenverRalphy wrote: »DenverRalphy wrote: »I'm still trying to wrap my head around Banner Bearer being in those builds.
I mean, I get WHY it's on there for individual purposes. But in practice, in group content multiple players running BB with the same buffs because they're meta results in a lot of wasted buffs because they don't stack. So all you need is one player running with it.
It's used almost entirely for the individual crux gen. The raid lead just takes advantage of it to fill in some buff gaps.DenverRalphy wrote: »I'm still trying to wrap my head around Banner Bearer being in those builds.
I mean, I get WHY it's on there for individual purposes. But in practice, in group content multiple players running BB with the same buffs because they're meta results in a lot of wasted buffs because they don't stack. So all you need is one player running with it.
Banner Bearer generates 1 Crux every 5 seconds if you use the Class Mastery Script as a main Arcanist. This Crux is generated passively, which basically means that you can use 3 Crux Fatecarver more often since you waste less time using Flail.
This is also why every build that relies on Fatecarver for damage is superior if run by a main Arcanist.
Yeah, I'm aware of why it's used. But you can get the same class mastery with other scribed skills. Won't require 2 skill bar slots.
The tradeoff may be that you have to cast it in your rotation, but the results would be more beneficial to all. Less selfish, less waste, a tad more work, and benefits everyone.
We're using different scribed skill as of today. Mine will be heroism or courage, I can't remember. The others will have different ones. You're right about wasted buffs, but not everyone has the exact same.
I've been following logs from a group using other scribed skills for courage and their uptimes are absolutely horrible due to the 6 target cap, since none of the skills smart target.0 -
mdjessup4906✭✭✭✭I've been following logs from a group using other scribed skills for courage and their uptimes are absolutely horrible due to the 6 target cap, since none of the skills smart target.
Liberal use of battle spirit and smart targeting: 2 under the hood things they could do that would not only improve player experience but also build diversity.Edited by mdjessup4906 on June 18, 2025 3:40PM0 -
Imperial_Archmage✭✭✭✭BretonMage wrote: »ALL the builds rely on Assassination too.
What am I missing here, is it just for the Minor Savagery from Hemorrhage? Master Assassin relies on flanking and that’s such a jank mechanic which is nearly impossible to leverage when playing solo and hard to manage even in a group.0 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Imperial_Archmage wrote: »BretonMage wrote: »ALL the builds rely on Assassination too.
What am I missing here, is it just for the Minor Savagery from Hemorrhage? Master Assassin relies on flanking and that’s such a jank mechanic which is nearly impossible to leverage when playing solo and hard to manage even in a group.
It's the weapon damage from keeping up 10 stacks of relentless focus at all times. It's a passive buff.1 -
twisttop138✭✭✭✭twisttop138 wrote: »DenverRalphy wrote: »DenverRalphy wrote: »I'm still trying to wrap my head around Banner Bearer being in those builds.
I mean, I get WHY it's on there for individual purposes. But in practice, in group content multiple players running BB with the same buffs because they're meta results in a lot of wasted buffs because they don't stack. So all you need is one player running with it.
It's used almost entirely for the individual crux gen. The raid lead just takes advantage of it to fill in some buff gaps.DenverRalphy wrote: »I'm still trying to wrap my head around Banner Bearer being in those builds.
I mean, I get WHY it's on there for individual purposes. But in practice, in group content multiple players running BB with the same buffs because they're meta results in a lot of wasted buffs because they don't stack. So all you need is one player running with it.
Banner Bearer generates 1 Crux every 5 seconds if you use the Class Mastery Script as a main Arcanist. This Crux is generated passively, which basically means that you can use 3 Crux Fatecarver more often since you waste less time using Flail.
This is also why every build that relies on Fatecarver for damage is superior if run by a main Arcanist.
Yeah, I'm aware of why it's used. But you can get the same class mastery with other scribed skills. Won't require 2 skill bar slots.
The tradeoff may be that you have to cast it in your rotation, but the results would be more beneficial to all. Less selfish, less waste, a tad more work, and benefits everyone.
We're using different scribed skill as of today. Mine will be heroism or courage, I can't remember. The others will have different ones. You're right about wasted buffs, but not everyone has the exact same.
I've been following logs from a group using other scribed skills for courage and their uptimes are absolutely horrible due to the 6 target cap, since none of the skills smart target.
Interesting. It must be heroism then. I know mine was flame with major sav and prophecy. My group is far from optimized, just doing vet trials and learning hard mode. I will mention that to my lead though.0 -
Renato90085✭✭✭✭✭
still 2nd good dd line,Imperial_Archmage wrote: »BretonMage wrote: »ALL the builds rely on Assassination too.
What am I missing here, is it just for the Minor Savagery from Hemorrhage? Master Assassin relies on flanking and that’s such a jank mechanic which is nearly impossible to leverage when playing solo and hard to manage even in a group.
in solo ,if you main use good assassin skill,you total have 10% crit chance/10%crit dmg(Pressure Points passive)/500wd/100% time 3k pen/20% dmg buff/heal/execution/60s Major Breach,in a dd line
in fact,in solo Assassin only Teleport Strike very suck..0 -
Imperial_Archmage✭✭✭✭Imperial_Archmage wrote: »BretonMage wrote: »ALL the builds rely on Assassination too.
What am I missing here, is it just for the Minor Savagery from Hemorrhage? Master Assassin relies on flanking and that’s such a jank mechanic which is nearly impossible to leverage when playing solo and hard to manage even in a group.
It's the weapon damage from keeping up 10 stacks of relentless focus at all times. It's a passive buff.
Ah, I only play one bar builds, no back bar to put it on and no room in the front. I definitely see Relentless Focus getting nerfed though, 400 spell damage for doing nothing is crazy.0 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Imperial_Archmage wrote: »Imperial_Archmage wrote: »BretonMage wrote: »ALL the builds rely on Assassination too.
What am I missing here, is it just for the Minor Savagery from Hemorrhage? Master Assassin relies on flanking and that’s such a jank mechanic which is nearly impossible to leverage when playing solo and hard to manage even in a group.
It's the weapon damage from keeping up 10 stacks of relentless focus at all times. It's a passive buff.
Ah, I only play one bar builds, no back bar to put it on and no room in the front. I definitely see Relentless Focus getting nerfed though, 400 spell damage for doing nothing is crazy.
It was 600 at the start of pts.0 -
Gabriel_H✭✭✭✭✭I think that's highly group dependent, but regardless, there are fights where you need your own mitigation: portal mechanics and so on, and it's very useful there, again without sacrificing anything else damage-wise. It's not how high the difference is--you can sweat hard on another combo and reach decent numbers, sweat being the operative word, but you will still miss all the extra advantages the arc has. It's not a coincidence that most groups have a majority of arc DD compositions. It's too good not to run it. And to be clear, I'm not saying they should be hammer nerfed, only that other specs are brought on par, variety is a good thing.
Back to what I said earlier. It isn't a coincidence becuase people do not make and test their own builds - they get from places like skinnycheeks.
One other consideration in terms of efficiency: The human - if a playstyle is boring that will have a negative impact on efficiency. Boredom breeds inattention and complacency. Which would you rather have on a trifecta run, a ArcBladePlar doing 120k dps but bored and zoning out, or a DK dps doing 119k who is engaged with the content?
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sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
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I have over 30 Gryphon hearts on multiple roles. We are trying to triple mini skip.
I also have 5 or 6 DBs, a patch high score in vMoL, 4 godslayers (I don't do sunspire much), 4 or 5 ttts, 6 planesbreakers, and 2 swashes. The other tris I don't have are because I've never tried for them (I don't do cores often).Edited by sarahthes on June 18, 2025 6:10PM1 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
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Well, you won't get crux from it. And the whole point of arc banner is crux gen.4 -
Renato90085✭✭✭✭✭
I have over 30 Gryphon hearts on multiple roles. We are trying to triple mini skip.
I also have 5 or 6 DBs, a patch high score in vMoL, 4 godslayers (I don't do sunspire much), 4 or 5 ttts, 6 planesbreakers, and 2 swashes. The other tris I don't have are because I've never tried for them (I don't do cores often).
I just curiosity,Is your 30 GH have other 0p in old patch or it your first time?0 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Renato90085 wrote: »
I have over 30 Gryphon hearts on multiple roles. We are trying to triple mini skip.
I also have 5 or 6 DBs, a patch high score in vMoL, 4 godslayers (I don't do sunspire much), 4 or 5 ttts, 6 planesbreakers, and 2 swashes. The other tris I don't have are because I've never tried for them (I don't do cores often).
I just curiosity,Is your 30 GH have other 0p in old patch or it your first time?
My first few GH were years ago, I've gotten 25+ since last fall when I started running in sweatier open runs. I think 3 or 4 this patch? I don't always remember to track them.
Edit: misunderstood your question but all except the first few have been 0 portal Galenwe skips. I only have 1 or 2 triple skip GHs.Edited by sarahthes on June 18, 2025 6:23PM0 -
M1SHAAN✭✭✭✭Back to what I said earlier. It isn't a coincidence becuase people do not make and test their own builds - they get from places like skinnycheeks.
I recommend joining skinnycheeks' Discord, there are a ton of people making and testing their own builds, and not just for arcanist base. If there are viable non-beam builds, they'll find them; I know skinny was playing with a non-arc storm-cursed setup that did crazy aoe dps, for example. Unfortunately, beam builds are the most viable right now, which is why he has so many of them on his website.
Also, saying that people can choose to play off-meta is not a counterargument to the argument that the current meta is too unbalanced. The whole issue with an unbalanced meta is that there's too large a power differential between meta and non-meta builds, which increases the social pressure to conform to the meta. Sure, I could "make better friends" (which btw as an autistic person is nontrivial), but even when I'm in groups that don't enforce meta builds, if we're struggling with the content and I know I could be doing 20k+ more dps with a beam build, I feel like I'm letting the team down. I'm in one prog which has no class restrictions whatsoever, as a support z'en dps, and I still feel guilty that I didn't take the Herald line so I could beam in trash. Even if most of the progress that must be made is in the mechs, knowingly not doing your best feels bad.
If the meta is equal enough, the low/mid tier endgame runs will often accept the entire plateau rather than trying to find the zenith. I've seen a lot of runs asking for herald/assassination/flex because the third skill line doesn't change the dps enough to be worth specifying. I dream of a meta where picking 3 dps lines is close enough to meta to be the only requirement for my level of endgame.5