I went onto Skinny Cheek's website and noticed something odd about the latest patch 46 builds....

moderatelyfatman · June 17

Can you help me work out what's going on here? I just can't put my finger on it?

colossalvoids · June 17

Wonder how much time zos would need to figure it out. Took players one patch note read, so might take awhile.

ApoAlaia · June 17

Beam goes brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Most fun I've had in ESO since the stamplar of yore.

GeneralGrundmann · June 17

Beam will be nerfed to death, the question is: how?

-less damage?
-higher cost?
-less cleave? (target cap of 3 or 4?)
-less beam time (only 2 or 3 seconds?)

...we'll see...

BretonMage · June 17

ALL the builds rely on Assassination too.

Heronisan · June 17

Next patch assasination, herald of the tome and aedric spear getting that sweet U35 templar treatment

GeneralGrundmann · June 17

Yeah, but mostly for the nice backbar damage bonus. That's not annoying compared to the light show you see during trials these days. Everybody and their grandma got beam.

ApoAlaia · June 17

GeneralGrundmann wrote: »

Yeah, but mostly for the nice backbar damage bonus. That's not annoying compared to the light show you see during trials these days. Everybody and their grandma got beam.

Some of us have two beams \o/

GeneralGrundmann · June 17

Double-beam 😉

ApoAlaia · June 17

GeneralGrundmann wrote: »

Double-beam 😉

Yep

Said that the 'noise' from player abilities pales in comparison to the amount of 'noise' generated by the encounters themselves.

The last boss in OC, my eyes want to roll out of their sockets while my brain goes AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

Wish GPU drivers had an option to render the graphics on wireframe and leave everything else out.

I just need: green for where to stand, red for where not to stand and a wireframe model to whack, leave the flashy stuff for RP runs.

Gabriel_H · June 17

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Can you help me work out what's going on here? I just can't put my finger on it?

I can put my finger on it - players are relying on websites and youtubers for their builds rather than understanding the games mechanics, which is then further enforced by raid leads who think they can break world record scores (99.9% of whom won't).

Is Tome/Assass/Spear(or Wrath) a very strong dps build? Absolutely. Is it the only strong dps build? No.

There are two things to consider:

1. Parse damage
2. Content damage

As a raid lead myself, I've never been particularly interested in what someone can do on a static dummy with skills that, for some skills in a parse build, will not make it to content.

The differential between parse and content damage has grown since U-46, with much higher numbers on the dummy compared to is being done in the content. But a skilled DD can produce close to the same numbers with a non-subclassed character as they can with an ArcBladePlar.

The difference, applied across the group and across a trial or dungeon, can be measured in seconds. You don't need to spec the "meta" to get things done. Sure the meta is 100% efficiency, but there are dozens of builds at 99.9%, and even more at 99% - the difference is a lag spike or one mis-pressed key.

The hardest achievements in-game are the trifectas. The devs are balancing things around that not world record scores.

Renato90085 · June 17

as a only one use real combat build 140k pure nb in log
yep ,i cant close to same dps in any subclass member and all time is lowest dps, i alway lose 30-70k dps
because new meta is no alk/ec sup set so your other subclass/pure dps suck than dummy parse dps(full crit dmg/pen time)

Jaimeh · June 17

The beam is so overpowered, and because you light attack less, it synergizes well with Velothi, which has the extra advantage of not needing to slot-a skill for minor force, and use the slot for something else, unlike other classes. It's a perfect combination that's a step above everything else. The issue is not just with balance, and how Herald of the Tome leaves everything in the dust, it's with the playstyle: it revolves around the beam, and I bet I'm not the only DD who doesn't enjoy the rotation. I wish other subslass combos were as powerful, with a similar amount of effort in the rotation, but sadly that's not the case, and hasn't been since the Arcanist came out. There have been so many posts with ESO logs statistics calling the attention of the devs over the last two years, but I think they gave up on balancing, and you either play Arc to be the most effective or you play something else and do less damage (provided your group doesn't require optimization).

Gabriel_H · June 17

Jaimeh wrote: »

The beam is so overpowered, and because you light attack less, it synergizes well with Velothi, which has the extra advantage of not needing to slot-a skill for minor force, and use the slot for something else, unlike other classes. It's a perfect combination that's a step above everything else. The issue is not just with balance, and how Herald of the Tome leaves everything in the dust, it's with the playstyle: it revolves around the beam, and I bet I'm not the only DD who doesn't enjoy the rotation. I wish other subslass combos were as powerful, with a similar amount of effort in the rotation, but sadly that's not the case, and hasn't been since the Arcanist came out. There have been so many posts with ESO logs statistics calling the attention of the devs over the last two years, but I think they gave up on balancing, and you either play Arc to be the most effective or you play something else and do less damage (provided your group doesn't require optimization).

What, for example, is your dps in vLC with your sub-classed arcanist vs another dps spec without sub-classing?

Just an FYI: ESOlogs current standings (prior to U-46) don't have arcanists as the top dps, just the most played.

Cellithor · June 17

Gabriel_H wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Can you help me work out what's going on here? I just can't put my finger on it?

I can put my finger on it - players are relying on websites and youtubers for their builds rather than understanding the games mechanics, which is then further enforced by raid leads who think they can break world record scores (99.9% of whom won't).

Is Tome/Assass/Spear(or Wrath) a very strong dps build? Absolutely. Is it the only strong dps build? No.

There are two things to consider:

1. Parse damage
2. Content damage

As a raid lead myself, I've never been particularly interested in what someone can do on a static dummy with skills that, for some skills in a parse build, will not make it to content.

The differential between parse and content damage has grown since U-46, with much higher numbers on the dummy compared to is being done in the content. But a skilled DD can produce close to the same numbers with a non-subclassed character as they can with an ArcBladePlar.

The difference, applied across the group and across a trial or dungeon, can be measured in seconds. You don't need to spec the "meta" to get things done. Sure the meta is 100% efficiency, but there are dozens of builds at 99.9%, and even more at 99% - the difference is a lag spike or one mis-pressed key.

The hardest achievements in-game are the trifectas. The devs are balancing things around that not world record scores.

I have never understood why people care about what can be parsed on a dummy using a build made specifically for the dummy parse. If that's not the build you're going to be using to complete content, then it's an utterly irrelevant benchmark.

Parses in general don't seem incredibly reliable anyway because this only shows what your build can do under optimal circumstances and without needing to dodge, fall back to recover resources, or even account for inconsistencies in the support roles - things that would need to account for more skill than just being able to put some gear on and hit a rotation over and over.

There are so many variables that can happen in content that it feels like most builds will perform similarly anyway when it comes down to the action, unless someone is literally using a build that has no cohesion and makes no sense.

Gabriel_H · June 17

Cellithor wrote: »

There are so many variables that can happen in content that it feels like most builds will perform similarly anyway when it comes down to the action, unless someone is literally using a build that has no cohesion and makes no sense.

Which is borne out by the data we have, just not by people's "feelings" or what skinnycheeks may have to say. Which comes back to my first point: People use these websites, rather than work it out for themselves, and test, and re-visit, and re-test; and that creates a problem known in psychiatry as "Anchoring Theory" - cognative bias towards the first thing someone hears on a subject they are unfamiliar with.

The game has dozens of skill lines, hundreds of sets, multiple ways of dealing with most mechanics. The current drive is simply to find the highest damage possible and power through the mechanics, rather than simply solving the problem. The former sucks a lot of fun out of it for a lot of people. Lets try the latter for a while and see how that goes.

tomofhyrule · June 17

Gabriel_H wrote: »

The game has dozens of skill lines, hundreds of sets, multiple ways of dealing with most mechanics. The current drive is simply to find the highest damage possible and power through the mechanics, rather than simply solving the problem. The former sucks a lot of fun out of it for a lot of people. Lets try the latter for a while and see how that goes.

This is truly a noble concept, and is the way that new strategies are found.

In single player games.

But the one thing that nobody bothers to explain when saying "ugh you don't have to do meta!" is how do you find a group to do the content that will allow everyone to play off-meta? You can't really say "lol just don't follow the meta!" and expect that you'll be able to get into any group without getting at minimum vitriol thrown for not willing to work with others.

sarahthes · June 17

Arc gives cleave, pen, a unique 5% damage done buff, and easy access to major prophecy, along with a pretty cheap high damage ultimate.

Nightblade gives crit, weapon damage, and the chance for free ult gen plus a very cheap ultimate and an execute.

Everyone should be running both Herald of the Tome and Assassination in group content unless on a support DD that requires other lines. Pretty much trolling if you aren't because you're looking at free damage and saying "no thanks!"

El_Borracho · June 17

Huh, so you're saying subclassing has led to less diversity in builds? If only people were saying this before U46 dropped...

Now cue the next two months of nerfing every "overperforming" skill into the ground.

sarahthes · June 17

El_Borracho wrote: »

Huh, so you're saying subclassing has led to less diversity in builds? If only people were saying this before U46 dropped...

Now cue the next two months of nerfing every "overperforming" skill into the ground.

I was saying it before.

I think they should leave it as it is though. My biggest fear about subclassing was an overcorrection and major damage reduction in U47. I think that would hit population numbers far worse than everyone having to beam.

Gabriel_H · June 17

tomofhyrule wrote: »

But the one thing that nobody bothers to explain when saying "ugh you don't have to do meta!" is how do you find a group to do the content that will allow everyone to play off-meta? You can't really say "lol just don't follow the meta!" and expect that you'll be able to get into any group without getting at minimum vitriol thrown for not willing to work with others.

You need to find better friends to play with. I don't play meta, I've never had a problem because my skill speaks for itself. I've seen people with meta builds play atrociously, and I've seen people with non-meta builds play fantastically.

Is playing non-meta for everyone? No, of course not. But the idea that in a game with such small differentials that someone's skill can't compensate for a small "drag" on their build is just nonsensical. Does it require more work and can be more of a challenge? Absolutely, but that's what makes it fun for some people.

As I said, the end-game is balanced around trifectas; and there are dozens if not hundreds of builds and group compositions who can achieve that - if they have the skill. Which is the whole point of the game right? It's not a deckbuilder where you get the best cards and just plough through, it's designed to test your ability as a player.

While gear and skills do form part of that ability, it is no where near as important as speed, reaction, situational awareness, understanding the mechs, understanding the skills, knowing when to do and when not to do something.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

getting at minimum vitriol thrown for not willing to work with others.

Do they do the mechs? Do they dodge when needed? Do they block when needed? Do they move to the right position? Do they do damage/taunt/heal? etc.

If the answer is yes, then they ARE working with others. The notion that not being 100% meta isn't working with others is just silly.

disky · June 17

GeneralGrundmann wrote: »

Beam will be nerfed to death, the question is: how?

-less damage?
-higher cost?
-less cleave? (target cap of 3 or 4?)
-less beam time (only 2 or 3 seconds?)

...we'll see...

If it were me, I'd lower the range dramatically. There's just no reason why it has to be as long as it is.

Frayton · June 17

Long live the arcanist meta!

sarahthes · June 17

Gabriel_H wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

But the one thing that nobody bothers to explain when saying "ugh you don't have to do meta!" is how do you find a group to do the content that will allow everyone to play off-meta? You can't really say "lol just don't follow the meta!" and expect that you'll be able to get into any group without getting at minimum vitriol thrown for not willing to work with others.

You need to find better friends to play with. I don't play meta, I've never had a problem because my skill speaks for itself. I've seen people with meta builds play atrociously, and I've seen people with non-meta builds play fantastically.

Is playing non-meta for everyone? No, of course not. But the idea that in a game with such small differentials that someone's skill can't compensate for a small "drag" on their build is just nonsensical. Does it require more work and can be more of a challenge? Absolutely, but that's what makes it fun for some people.

As I said, the end-game is balanced around trifectas; and there are dozens if not hundreds of builds and group compositions who can achieve that - if they have the skill. Which is the whole point of the game right? It's not a deckbuilder where you get the best cards and just plough through, it's designed to test your ability as a player.

While gear and skills do form part of that ability, it is no where near as important as speed, reaction, situational awareness, understanding the mechs, understanding the skills, knowing when to do and when not to do something.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

getting at minimum vitriol thrown for not willing to work with others.

Do they do the mechs? Do they dodge when needed? Do they block when needed? Do they move to the right position? Do they do damage/taunt/heal? etc.

If the answer is yes, then they ARE working with others. The notion that not being 100% meta isn't working with others is just silly.

It depends entirely on the goals of the group. You can't just make a general statement like that.

Sometimes doing as much damage as possible, as efficiently as possible, IS the goal of the group.

Alaztor91 · June 17

I mean, go look at something like Ossein Cage rankings at ESO Logs and filter by DPS. Out of the 95 entries(at the moment I post this), 91 are Arcanists.

Jaimeh · June 17

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

The beam is so overpowered, and because you light attack less, it synergizes well with Velothi, which has the extra advantage of not needing to slot-a skill for minor force, and use the slot for something else, unlike other classes. It's a perfect combination that's a step above everything else. The issue is not just with balance, and how Herald of the Tome leaves everything in the dust, it's with the playstyle: it revolves around the beam, and I bet I'm not the only DD who doesn't enjoy the rotation. I wish other subslass combos were as powerful, with a similar amount of effort in the rotation, but sadly that's not the case, and hasn't been since the Arcanist came out. There have been so many posts with ESO logs statistics calling the attention of the devs over the last two years, but I think they gave up on balancing, and you either play Arc to be the most effective or you play something else and do less damage (provided your group doesn't require optimization).

What, for example, is your dps in vLC with your sub-classed arcanist vs another dps spec without sub-classing?

Just an FYI: ESOlogs current standings (prior to U-46) don't have arcanists as the top dps, just the most played.

I don't have trial numbers only dummy parses, but don't disregard the point about the rotation difficulty: as it stands you can't do the same numbers with the same casts, swaps and so on, with another spec. My closest was still 15k behind and it was a complex roto with necro/nb/warden. Also, don't disregard the huge mitigation arcanists have without sacrificing a single thing in their bars, simply by having the pragmatic morph of the beam, which is what almost all DDs are using in live content, and the heal from flail. It's an OP kit: more damage, easier to play, baked in healing/mitigation, nothing else can really compare.

DenverRalphy · June 17

I'm still trying to wrap my head around Banner Bearer being in those builds.

I mean, I get WHY it's on there for individual purposes. But in practice, in group content multiple players running BB with the same buffs because they're meta results in a lot of wasted buffs because they don't stack. So all you need is one player running with it.

TheMajority · June 17

i notice skinny cheek whomever this is likes arcanists, that is all I notice

sarahthes · June 17

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I'm still trying to wrap my head around Banner Bearer being in those builds.

I mean, I get WHY it's on there for individual purposes. But in practice, in group content multiple players running BB with the same buffs because they're meta results in a lot of wasted buffs because they don't stack. So all you need is one player running with it.

It's used almost entirely for the individual crux gen. The raid lead just takes advantage of it to fill in some buff gaps.

Alaztor91 · June 17

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I'm still trying to wrap my head around Banner Bearer being in those builds.

I mean, I get WHY it's on there for individual purposes. But in practice, in group content multiple players running BB with the same buffs because they're meta results in a lot of wasted buffs because they don't stack. So all you need is one player running with it.

Banner Bearer generates 1 Crux every 5 seconds if you use the Class Mastery Script as a main Arcanist. This Crux is generated passively, which basically means that you can use 3 Crux Fatecarver more often since you waste less time using Flail.

This is also why every build that relies on Fatecarver for damage is superior if run by a main Arcanist.

DenverRalphy · June 17

sarahthes wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I'm still trying to wrap my head around Banner Bearer being in those builds.

I mean, I get WHY it's on there for individual purposes. But in practice, in group content multiple players running BB with the same buffs because they're meta results in a lot of wasted buffs because they don't stack. So all you need is one player running with it.

It's used almost entirely for the individual crux gen. The raid lead just takes advantage of it to fill in some buff gaps.

Alaztor91 wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I'm still trying to wrap my head around Banner Bearer being in those builds.

I mean, I get WHY it's on there for individual purposes. But in practice, in group content multiple players running BB with the same buffs because they're meta results in a lot of wasted buffs because they don't stack. So all you need is one player running with it.

Banner Bearer generates 1 Crux every 5 seconds if you use the Class Mastery Script as a main Arcanist. This Crux is generated passively, which basically means that you can use 3 Crux Fatecarver more often since you waste less time using Flail.

This is also why every build that relies on Fatecarver for damage is superior if run by a main Arcanist.

Yeah, I'm aware of why it's used. But you can get the same class mastery with other scribed skills. Won't require 2 skill bar slots.

The tradeoff may be that you have to cast it in your rotation, but the results would be more beneficial to all. Less selfish, less waste, a tad more work, and benefits everyone.