Just as a question, what do you mean you have to have a maxed out skill line at 50?

I am a sorceror main. I have an unleveled nightblade and a somewhat leveled warden as alts.

I subclassed to Dawn's Wrath, which I started at zero. I don't have any Templar alts, I haven't touched the templar class.

So, I don't quite understand what you mean by you have to have maxed out the skill to 50 to be eligible for subclassing?

Servadei wrote: »

Imperial_Archmage wrote: »

On top of that, the nature of leveling skill lines incentivizes degenerate gameplay where you slot all of the skills regardless of whether or not you’re using them just to level it faster, often making you a liability in group play.

This is me. I'm one of those degenerates. It's funny bc I used to always bring my best build and gear even in pugs but now I don't even care anymore bc I'm just so tired of all the horrible grind in this game just to even try out new systems or content.

Oh you’re not alone, lol. We’ve all done it and my point is precisely that we shouldn’t have to.

Imperial_Archmage wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Just as a question, what do you mean you have to have a maxed out skill line at 50?

I am a sorceror main. I have an unleveled nightblade and a somewhat leveled warden as alts.

I subclassed to Dawn's Wrath, which I started at zero. I don't have any Templar alts, I haven't touched the templar class.

So, I don't quite understand what you mean by you have to have maxed out the skill to 50 to be eligible for subclassing?

From the official game website: “To equip a new class skill line, you'll need to subclass a skill line from another class or master that skill line by achieving rank 50 on that skill line's primary class.” It was my understanding that you needed to have previously maxed it out on the original class in order to use it on another. I have no way of verifying whether or not you can do it otherwise because I had all skill lines maxed out on all classes before Update 46 went live. Another thing for @ZOS_Kevin to clarify, I guess.

Yeah, because I definitely haven't played Templar at all, but that is what I ultimately decided to subclass to. Was thinking of buying Arcanist and seeing if any of those skills were what I am looking for.

About the only thing I can think of is that I believe once you subclass you are locked into that particular skill line until it reaches 50. You can't switch it out (as far as I know) before then. which is why I am not trying arcanist, as I don't want to get rid of one of my other skill lines yet.

licenturion wrote: »

Servadei wrote: »

Imperial_Archmage wrote: »

On top of that, the nature of leveling skill lines incentivizes degenerate gameplay where you slot all of the skills regardless of whether or not you’re using them just to level it faster, often making you a liability in group play.

This is me. I'm one of those degenerates. It's funny bc I used to always bring my best build and gear even in pugs but now I don't even care anymore bc I'm just so tired of all the horrible grind in this game just to even try out new systems or content.

LOL I am doing this too. I have 1 useful skill I mainly use that I smash and all the rest is for levelling. So far I have been lucky the other players have their optimal kit on them

licenturion wrote: »

Servadei wrote: »

Imperial_Archmage wrote: »

On top of that, the nature of leveling skill lines incentivizes degenerate gameplay where you slot all of the skills regardless of whether or not you’re using them just to level it faster, often making you a liability in group play.

This is me. I'm one of those degenerates. It's funny bc I used to always bring my best build and gear even in pugs but now I don't even care anymore bc I'm just so tired of all the horrible grind in this game just to even try out new systems or content.

LOL I am doing this too. I have 1 useful skill I mainly use that I smash and all the rest is for levelling. So far I have been lucky the other players have their optimal kit on them

I did that in a BG yesterday but I got wrecked so after I rezzed I swapped out my skills to my proper build, helped whoop the other team, and then threw myself off a cliff to get out of combat so I could replace the skills I needed leveled just before the game ended. This is what I mean when I say “degenerate” we should not have to do this sort of nonsense!

I've spent a couple of hours in Alik'r, in full XP gear and running scrolls, and given the half-speed leveling of skill lines as subclasses, it feels like I'm looking at 3 hours per skill line to level to 50, and max out both morphs. Given I'd like to get at least 2 skill lines going to actually START USING THEM IN CONTENT, I'm looking at probably 4 more hours of grinding. And running the dolmens is exhausting. Combat in this game is kind of exhausting anyway, but when it's literally non-stop for hours on end...

Anyway, THEN comes doing a couple other skill lines to use on other base classes. THEN comes doing them for tanking and healing. I got to a point last night where I just said, "Forget this!," and quit.

And, sure, someone is going to say I'm not doing it right, and that I ought to be running BRP or Skyreach or whatever, but you have to be carried for those while you're not using any interesting skills, just like doing dolmens, and it's all a sucky grind.

Someone else is going to say, "It's just playing the game, and why would you want to speed run it? Just start using the skills like you were new!" And I say that's even less fun and more tedious.

I was convinced they'd offer insta-leveling upgrades in the Crown store. I wish they would.

GeneralGrundmann wrote: »

What would be a necessary hurdle?

You must be fun at parties…

Imperial_Archmage wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Just as a question, what do you mean you have to have a maxed out skill line at 50?

I am a sorceror main. I have an unleveled nightblade and a somewhat leveled warden as alts.

I subclassed to Dawn's Wrath, which I started at zero. I don't have any Templar alts, I haven't touched the templar class.

So, I don't quite understand what you mean by you have to have maxed out the skill to 50 to be eligible for subclassing?

From the official game website: “To equip a new class skill line, you'll need to subclass a skill line from another class or master that skill line by achieving rank 50 on that skill line's primary class.” It was my understanding that you needed to have previously maxed it out on the original class in order to use it on another. I have no way of verifying whether or not you can do it otherwise because I had all skill lines maxed out on all classes before Update 46 went live. Another thing for @ZOS_Kevin to clarify, I guess.

Just before your bolded part is the other half of the "or" - if you do not have that line leveled to 50, you may "subclass" it instead. That is the option for people who have not yet reached 50 on a class line on its native class.

Unfortunately ZOS uses this term "subclass" in an equivocating way that causes confusion: the term is sometimes used to mean the entire idea of using non-native class lines (as in, "subclassing [the game feature] will be free for all players") and sometimes used to mean the specific mechanism of "borrowing a class line you haven't yet mastered on its native class" (as opposed to using a mastered line).

Any line you have mastered (i.e. reached 50 on) you may swap in and out freely on any character by respeccing. That is the difference from a mastered line and a subclassed (specific sense) line, as any line you do not have mastered is considered "subclassed" and counts against a total of 3 such lines you may select on a character. (You may only "equip" 2 of these lines, each from a different class, as you must keep one from your native class. But you can choose a total of 3 to swap among while you level them.)

If a line has been mastered on its native class, it does not count against this 3 "subclassed" line limit on any character.

The collectible tooltips are equally confusing, as the wording "unlocks the [Class Name] class skill line [Skill Line Name] for use in subclassing" suggests you may not use the named skill line at all on another class until you earn the collectible. That's untrue (in either the specific or general sense of the term "subclassing"), as you have access to all lines via subclassing (specific sense). The collectibles unlock the free use of these lines without counting against the subclass (specific sense) limit of 3 at a time.

They probably should have chosen a different term for subclassing in the specific sense to avoid this confusion, and they certainly should have rephrased the collectible tooltips to be clear and accurate.

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

I've spent a couple of hours in Alik'r, in full XP gear and running scrolls, and given the half-speed leveling of skill lines as subclasses, it feels like I'm looking at 3 hours per skill line to level to 50, and max out both morphs. Given I'd like to get at least 2 skill lines going to actually START USING THEM IN CONTENT, I'm looking at probably 4 more hours of grinding. And running the dolmens is exhausting. Combat in this game is kind of exhausting anyway, but when it's literally non-stop for hours on end...

Anyway, THEN comes doing a couple other skill lines to use on other base classes. THEN comes doing them for tanking and healing. I got to a point last night where I just said, "Forget this!," and quit.

And, sure, someone is going to say I'm not doing it right, and that I ought to be running BRP or Skyreach or whatever, but you have to be carried for those while you're not using any interesting skills, just like doing dolmens, and it's all a sucky grind.

Someone else is going to say, "It's just playing the game, and why would you want to speed run it? Just start using the skills like you were new!" And I say that's even less fun and more tedious.

I was convinced they'd offer insta-leveling upgrades in the Crown store. I wish they would.

Dolmens are soul crushing. Having just gone through this, random dungeons are where its at.

Post level 36, I was doing multiple daily randoms on my new arcanist withj 150% scroll and getting 2-3 levels per run, which is about 10 minutes for most normals.

In the normals you don't even have to rotate. I was just weaving light attacks with another dps skill, and occasional ultimates, and doing 35% damage, which is enough.

The dolmen grind is only useful if you are also leveling JC as you can get it to about 20 on a 1-50 grind.

virtus753 wrote: »

Imperial_Archmage wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Just as a question, what do you mean you have to have a maxed out skill line at 50?

I am a sorceror main. I have an unleveled nightblade and a somewhat leveled warden as alts.

I subclassed to Dawn's Wrath, which I started at zero. I don't have any Templar alts, I haven't touched the templar class.

So, I don't quite understand what you mean by you have to have maxed out the skill to 50 to be eligible for subclassing?

From the official game website: “To equip a new class skill line, you'll need to subclass a skill line from another class or master that skill line by achieving rank 50 on that skill line's primary class.” It was my understanding that you needed to have previously maxed it out on the original class in order to use it on another. I have no way of verifying whether or not you can do it otherwise because I had all skill lines maxed out on all classes before Update 46 went live. Another thing for @ZOS_Kevin to clarify, I guess.

Just before your bolded part is the other half of the "or" - if you do not have that line leveled to 50, you may "subclass" it instead. That is the option for people who have not yet reached 50 on a class line on its native class.

Unfortunately ZOS uses this term "subclass" in an equivocating way that causes confusion: the term is sometimes used to mean the entire idea of using non-native class lines (as in, "subclassing [the game feature] will be free for all players") and sometimes used to mean the specific mechanism of "borrowing a class line you haven't yet mastered on its native class" (as opposed to using a mastered line).

Any line you have mastered (i.e. reached 50 on) you may swap in and out freely on any character by respeccing. That is the difference from a mastered line and a subclassed (specific sense) line, as any line you do not have mastered is considered "subclassed" and counts against a total of 3 such lines you may select on a character. (You may only "equip" 2 of these lines, each from a different class, as you must keep one from your native class. But you can choose a total of 3 to swap among while you level them.)

If a line has been mastered on its native class, it does not count against this 3 "subclassed" line limit on any character.

The collectible tooltips are equally confusing, as the wording "unlocks the [Class Name] class skill line [Skill Line Name] for use in subclassing" suggests you may not use the named skill line at all on another class until you earn the collectible. That's untrue (in either the specific or general sense of the term "subclassing"), as you have access to all lines via subclassing (specific sense). The collectibles unlock the free use of these lines without counting against the subclass (specific sense) limit of 3 at a time.

They probably should have chosen a different term for subclassing in the specific sense to avoid this confusion, and they certainly should have rephrased the collectible tooltips to be clear and accurate.

Thanks for the explanation, yeah I had absolutely no idea it worked like that. When I first logged in and started getting the achievements I thought that meant you had to have the skill line maxed out on the original class into order to be able to use it on a different one. Why anyone should assume otherwise given the unclear nature of the tooltip as well as how other similar achievements work is beyond me. Unless of course they just accidentally stumbled across it like the poster I was replying to.

Anyway, I don’t want to repeat myself but if the system stays the way it is now I simply won’t engage with it any further because it doesn’t respect the player’s time. I honestly wouldn’t have bothered at all had I realized we would need to relevel everything from scratch. So glad I only did it on one character and with just a single skill line.

I don't think subclassing was supposed to be that easy or fast.
I commend you folks for giving it a go anyway.

I'm still deciding whether to do it or not

ImmortalCX wrote: »

They gave us a double-XP, long weekend before the patch.

It would have been a lot kinder had they waited until after we subclassed.

Between the grinding skill lines to 50 AGAIN and the totally lackluster story quest ..

I just came back after a break because I've been around since beta. I was burned out and when I saw subclassing I was thrilled initially and I thought this would be great! Nah, not so much.

One more thing I don't understand is why are there no Solstice recipe drops? I've gotten Nord recipes and Dark Elf recipes. Yet another grind but the usual channels are netting nothing. No love at all.

HatchetHaro wrote: »

All subclass progression is account-wide. Once you max out, say, Ardent Flame on a non-DK, all of your non-DK characters will be able to use a max-level Ardent Flame skill line.

For a one-time progression, it's honestly really good.

If you really can not be bothered to level them normally, just keep doing your daily writs, stack up as many master writs as possible, and do them all in one fell swoop on the next double-exp event.

If that’s true then why didn’t they simply make them account wide if you had maxed them out already and got the achievement on logging in after Update 46 launched? Why do we have to do it one more time before its account wide? It makes no sense from a gameplay philosophy standpoint and it’s sure as hell super disrespectful to player time investment.

As for the master writ stockpiling, that’s a non starter. It takes half a dozen writs WITH a 150% exp scroll just to go from rank 3 to rank 4 on the final skill in each line.

In the original stream that ZoS did to reveal subclassing, it honestly sounded (to me at least) that if you had those skill lines maxed out on a different toon, that you wouldn't have to grind the XP once you unlocked subclassing.

I remember thinking "Yes! Finally the fact that I've leveled all the skills on all the toons has payed off!"

And then it was nothing like that. And once the double XP event ended I decided this was such a giant waste of time and only a way to pump their play time numbers and I'm just not so interested in that.

I'm sure they will introduce the "max one of your subclass skill level" scroll in the crown store soon.