Sorcerer-King Orgnum and Evolution

Soarora · May 17

Ever since Tales of Tribute was added and we got the Sorcerer-King Orgnum token I've been pondering if Orgnum is shown as an Aldmer or Maormer. Thankfully, recently I found out there's a higher res image of the token. This image is now on UESP. Based on the scales and the ears, he certainly looks like a Maormer. But the thing is... conceptually, he is an Aldmer. After all, he is THE REASON that the Maormer were kicked out of Aldmeris. So, I come to a few conclusions, but I don't know which one is most realistic...

1. Tales of Tribute shows him as a Maormer because whoever made the deck thought he was a Maormer, but he is an Aldmer
2. He polymorphs into a Maormer to seem more closely related to his people
3. He is a Maormer because Sorcerer-King Orgnum is actually a line of people, not one person
4. He is a Maormer because evolution in TES works differently than in real life and somehow he became a Maormer over time

Anyone have any thoughts on this? I would be glad to hear them!

Heren · May 18

5. No one can say for sure.

I don't think a lot of people other than ( some ) maormers themselves, and possibly prisonners, get into their islands, and most likely even fewer get back. So, aside from interrogating willing maormers, and also trusting their words, you don't have much evidence about his apparence.

But it's an interesting discussion nontheless, and I think there is also some theories about Orgnum and his supposed longevity.

Soarora · May 19

Heren wrote: »

5. No one can say for sure.

I don't think a lot of people other than ( some ) maormers themselves, and possibly prisonners, get into their islands, and most likely even fewer get back. So, aside from interrogating willing maormers, and also trusting their words, you don't have much evidence about his apparence.

But it's an interesting discussion nontheless, and I think there is also some theories about Orgnum and his supposed longevity.

I don’t know how reputable the Pocket Guide to The Empire is, but according to the UESP page I linked in my first post, the 3rd edition states that Orgnum is known to lead attacks against the Altmer and appears to grow younger over time. That said, it is true I don’t know how anyone would get this information since a lot of Altmer die in Maormer raids. That said, it is evidence that Orgnum actually comes to Tamriel. I think theres also an art piece depicting him and a female Altmer in a relationship.

Thank you for your post! I do think we won’t ever really know until we have more depictions of him, but it is interesting to theorize. I don’t know if there’s any other examples of a long-lived individual potentially changing race except for ARGUABLY Mannimarco. But I’m also not sure we even know what Aldmer looked like?

Heren · May 19

Soarora wrote: »

I don’t know how reputable the Pocket Guide to The Empire is, but according to the UESP page I linked in my first post, the 3rd edition states that Orgnum is known to lead attacks against the Altmer and appears to grow younger over time. That said, it is true I don’t know how anyone would get this information since a lot of Altmer die in Maormer raids. That said, it is evidence that Orgnum actually comes to Tamriel. I think theres also an art piece depicting him and a female Altmer in a relationship.

Well I stand corrected ! If he's leading raids on the Summerset isles, indeed there should be more reports about his apparence, and possibly more reliable ones, even if in the chaos of such events there could still be some confusion.

I'll had a 6th possibility then : just like the dunmer's appearance did not change because of evolution, but because of a curse from Azura, Orgnum appearance ( and possibly by extension the appaerance of the maormer ) could be the result of some magical ritual, daedric deal, that kind of thing, going beyond polymorphism and forever altering his own appearance, and maybe those of all it's people.

Like in many fantasy worlds, magic and surnatural things can play a big role in altering peoples appearences, and sometime more.

I would add that, for propaganda purposes, at least the altmers would depict Orgnum as a maormer rather than an altmer - and depending of the influence of Summerset, the interests of other people, etc, they might not be the only ones doing so, even if the true appearance of Orgnum is uncertain. But in doubt, as he is a prime ennemy of Summerset, let's depict him as so.

Soarora · May 19

Heren wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I don’t know how reputable the Pocket Guide to The Empire is, but according to the UESP page I linked in my first post, the 3rd edition states that Orgnum is known to lead attacks against the Altmer and appears to grow younger over time. That said, it is true I don’t know how anyone would get this information since a lot of Altmer die in Maormer raids. That said, it is evidence that Orgnum actually comes to Tamriel. I think theres also an art piece depicting him and a female Altmer in a relationship.

Well I stand corrected ! If he's leading raids on the Summerset isles, indeed there should be more reports about his apparence, and possibly more reliable ones, even if in the chaos of such events there could still be some confusion.

I'll had a 6th possibility then : just like the dunmer's appearance did not change because of evolution, but because of a curse from Azura, Orgnum appearance ( and possibly by extension the appaerance of the maormer ) could be the result of some magical ritual, daedric deal, that kind of thing, going beyond polymorphism and forever altering his own appearance, and maybe those of all it's people.

Like in many fantasy worlds, magic and surnatural things can play a big role in altering peoples appearences, and sometime more.

I would add that, for propaganda purposes, at least the altmers would depict Orgnum as a maormer rather than an altmer - and depending of the influence of Summerset, the interests of other people, etc, they might not be the only ones doing so, even if the true appearance of Orgnum is uncertain. But in doubt, as he is a prime ennemy of Summerset, let's depict him as so.

Someone else I talked to also mentioned the possibility of a curse. It’s not mentioned anywhere, but I suppose it is a possibility that when they were cast out, the Aldmer cursed them to mark them as other. I’m not sure if the Aldmer would have that kind of power, but maybe.

That is a really good point about propaganda. There’s no chance that the Altmer would want to show Orgnum as an Aldmer. After all, Altmer are known for being supremacists— having your greatest enemy be the race you wish you were is not a good look.

Another possibility could be that he doesn’t actually physically go to Summerset but rather has Maormer body doubles to pretend to be him for intimidation. After all, no one knows how he’s been able to live this long… he’s far older than even Divayth Fyr.

Mindtrait0r · May 20

My money is on 4, that he evolved into a Maormer over time. We see Veloth, who should be an Aldmer, in Chimer form when we see his projection/spirit in ESO. PGE says: "The Aldmer changed over time culturally according to their new environments, being at first temperamentally and then physically very distinct "races" separate from one another."

Soarora · May 20

Mindtrait0r wrote: »

My money is on 4, that he evolved into a Maormer over time. We see Veloth, who should be an Aldmer, in Chimer form when we see his projection/spirit in ESO. PGE says: "The Aldmer changed over time culturally according to their new environments, being at first temperamentally and then physically very distinct "races" separate from one another."

Thanks for the new evidence! I don’t think it explicitly implies #4 but I see your argument.

With your first point, ZOS does make oversights. For instance, Nerevar’s projection is a Dunmer that’s in Ancient Elf armor and doesn’t even look like him. He should be a Chimer in Ordinator armor.
That said, looking at the projection again, I’m not sure why UESP claims he is a Chimer because he’s a ghost to the point that you can’t see the skin. Aldmer, Altmer, Ayleids, and Chimer are all yellow-y so even if his projection color had anything to do with it, can’t assume it means Chimer.

For your second point, that’s how evolution works in general. “The Aldmer” seems to refer to the group as a concept and not that individual people changed race over time.

Eporem · May 21

There is this lore of Uldor - so maybe a possibility Orgnum was able to do as well..

Uldor was a powerful Maormer wizard who used to rule Khenarthi's Roost with the reign of terror. He learnt how to separate his spirit from his body, even in death. He was able to possess both alive people and corpses.[1] He was not limited to commanding one body and could "wear" hundreds of mindless forms at a time, even in his undeath.[2]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Uldor

Mindtrait0r · May 22

Soarora wrote: »

With your first point, ZOS does make oversights. For instance, Nerevar’s projection is a Dunmer that’s in Ancient Elf armor and doesn’t even look like him. He should be a Chimer in Ordinator armor.
That said, looking at the projection again, I’m not sure why UESP claims he is a Chimer because he’s a ghost to the point that you can’t see the skin. Aldmer, Altmer, Ayleids, and Chimer are all yellow-y so even if his projection color had anything to do with it, can’t assume it means Chimer.

UESP used the model viewer to remove the spectral haze from him, revealing the Chimer model: https://esomodelviewer.com/characters/post/181-saint-veloth. I think it lines up the most with the examples of Aldmer we know of to assume evolution occured within their individual lifetimes. Mannimarco appears Altmer despite claiming to be Aldmer, Orgnum appears Maormer despite chronology placing him as Aldmer, Veloth appears Chimer despite chronology placing him as Chimer, and Topal/Torval is called both Aldmeri and High Elven.

Artim_X · June 7

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The_Scaled_Elves

If you've never seen a Sea Elf, they're strange, but unremarkable. Similar to High Elves in build, their skin is the color of ocean spray and their eyes pale. Most wouldn't give them a second glance if not for their elaborate tattoos and their vicious demeanor. The ones their kind call leviathans, however, they'll make your blood run as cold as their own.

The spawn of some unholy and sorcerous coupling of Sea Elf and Sea Serpent, these giants stand a head and a half over the most towering of Nords when they draw themselves to their full height. A rare sight since these Elves mostly carry themselves in a beastly posture, bent and arced like a snake ready to strike. When they do make their move, they don't so much stride as slither along in an uneven predatory lope—like they're unused to both land and legs

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The_Chosen_People_of_Aldmeris

Many still believe that the Maormer race of Pyandonea diverged from the racial line of the Altmer when they were exiled from Summerset Isle as criminals. This is the great, traitorous lie of the Altmer!

Translations of tapestries in the Crystal Tower reveal that the great Maormer race is directly descended from the purest strain of our Aldmeri ancestors. We certainly did not come from Summerset, but originated in our ancestral homeland of Aldmeris.

The Altmer themselves are a mongrel race. They are the abomination that drove our great leader Orgnum to lead our people through the impenetrable mists to our haven of Pyandonea.

For centuries, we have marshaled our forces in preparation for our triumphant return. Summerset is ours, by our right of birth as the one true Aldmeri race. All trace of the inferior Altmer race and their mongrel blood must be wiped from the face of Tamriel!

Our time has come! Arise, Maormer! Take your place as the rightful heirs to the Aldmeri Legacy

Although it could be propaganda, one can argue that the Aldmer, Maormer, and Altmer are one in the same with the difference just being purity of blood and magic transformation. The Maormer are the same race as Orgnum and some Maormer do shenanigans to become scaled elves and that magic could be why they differ so much from the Altmer.

Soarora · June 8

Artim_X wrote: »

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The_Scaled_Elves

If you've never seen a Sea Elf, they're strange, but unremarkable. Similar to High Elves in build, their skin is the color of ocean spray and their eyes pale. Most wouldn't give them a second glance if not for their elaborate tattoos and their vicious demeanor. The ones their kind call leviathans, however, they'll make your blood run as cold as their own.

The spawn of some unholy and sorcerous coupling of Sea Elf and Sea Serpent, these giants stand a head and a half over the most towering of Nords when they draw themselves to their full height. A rare sight since these Elves mostly carry themselves in a beastly posture, bent and arced like a snake ready to strike. When they do make their move, they don't so much stride as slither along in an uneven predatory lope—like they're unused to both land and legs

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The_Chosen_People_of_Aldmeris

Many still believe that the Maormer race of Pyandonea diverged from the racial line of the Altmer when they were exiled from Summerset Isle as criminals. This is the great, traitorous lie of the Altmer!

Translations of tapestries in the Crystal Tower reveal that the great Maormer race is directly descended from the purest strain of our Aldmeri ancestors. We certainly did not come from Summerset, but originated in our ancestral homeland of Aldmeris.

The Altmer themselves are a mongrel race. They are the abomination that drove our great leader Orgnum to lead our people through the impenetrable mists to our haven of Pyandonea.

For centuries, we have marshaled our forces in preparation for our triumphant return. Summerset is ours, by our right of birth as the one true Aldmeri race. All trace of the inferior Altmer race and their mongrel blood must be wiped from the face of Tamriel!

Our time has come! Arise, Maormer! Take your place as the rightful heirs to the Aldmeri Legacy

Although it could be propaganda, one can argue that the Aldmer, Maormer, and Altmer are one in the same with the difference just being purity of blood and magic transformation. The Maormer are the same race as Orgnum and some Maormer do shenanigans to become scaled elves and that magic could be why they differ so much from the Altmer.

Well, I mean, we know evolution does exist. Chimer are yellow like Altmer but sparkly, Falmer are pale, Ayleids are a bit darker and shiny. Based on how many elves are yellow, I think it’s a fair educated guess to say Aldmer are some version of yellow. Maormer are known to not be yellow, with most of them being bluish. There’s also some other weird things like their tongues making salt water potable and webbed ears. I feel this point more implies that Aldmer don’t look exactly like how Altmer do. But also non-Tamriel locations seem to be very out there compared to Tamriel evolution.
The tongue bit could’ve been intended, but I don’t think they would have made themselves blue on purpose. All Maormer we’ve seen have pastel skin, though the scales are unique to leviathans (but I’ve noticed most people give their maormer scales anyways, I don’t blame them, I do the same).