The 50k Health, High Resist, High Damage is ruining PVP

Veinblood1965 · May 19

To start off with I am quite a decent PVPer. I get my kills in whether solo or in a group. I know how to dodge, use line of site, etc. So this is not coming from a newbie who is sick of dying. I'm not dying all that much but what I mentioned in the subject line is just plain chasing people away from PVP.

We've all noticed it for a while now. You see entire groups running upper 40's, low 50k health. I'll be honest it's fun taking them down when you have a group yourself that is capable of coordinating. What I'm referring to is the mid to upper 50k health SOLO player who you cannot damage and they can pretty much one shot you. It's bad enough when this is something that a player is able to build, but it's even worse when they are grouped. It's causing less and less people to play the last few months. The only way to counter it is to do the same yourself. At first it was ok as it was just a few people here and there using such builds but now it's half a server or more. It's chasing the new people out of PVP. There is a hard enough of a learning curve in PVP that this is making it worse.

That being said no amount of theory crafting should allow anyone to be able to build such a build. You should have to sacrifice something. High health, then low resists or damage. Period. I decided to test it last night. There was a lone Warden player who had 53k health. I ran up and stood beside him and just blocked. I have high resists on my toon. He literally killed me within a second WHILE blocking. Seriously, while blocking with decent resists? Normally I'd roll dodge, use LoS etc. I absolutely did not expect that.

I'm probably just rambling it feels like but I cannot even imagine how this must be from a new players PVP perspective. I mean we all got one shotted when we first started, still do from time to time but if I was new and ran into entire groups like this I'd have gone back to Trials. I'm not saying it's not happening on my faction either. Last night we were taking a keep and we were attacked. I stopped and just started taking note of the health of the attacking team. Most were upper 40's low 50k health builds paired with heals. Same with our side. Anyone running less than that were pushing up daisies. I actually run low health on my NB but know how to avoid damage so it's normally not an issue, just not liking where all this is heading. Another few months and 90% of players will be using these builds.

Summary after my rant...High health, you should HAVE to sacrifice something. Period. I know it's probably hard to balance PVE expectations with PVP when ZoS is designing new sets etc but it's time to look at making some serious counters such as a set allowing you to being able to do more damage the more health someone has etc. Making it PVP specific so it does not make OP PVE builds for bosses etc.

CameraBeardThePirate · May 19

Yeeeahhh you're gonna be hard pressed to find people above 50k HP that are one shotting other players. 35k-40k? Sure, but the only 50k players that are one shotting people with proper builds are emperors. You just physically cannot get that high without sacrificing a lot.

Veinblood1965 · May 19

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Yeeeahhh you're gonna be hard pressed to find people above 50k HP that are one shotting other players. 35k-40k? Sure, but the only 50k players that are one shotting people with proper builds are emperors. You just physically cannot get that high without sacrificing a lot.

That's what I thought until I tested it yesterday, I seriously was just chalking it up to sever lag or something. I've started to notice it more and more lately. Once in a great while I'd see a high health "supposed tank" killing people left and right quickly, then lately more often(not rampant just more often) which is why I tested it. I'll try it again when I get the opportunity. I think it's been theory crafted by those that do spend the time to do so which is their right to do so but at a certain health cap you just should just plain have to give up something.

xylena_lazarow · May 19

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

To start off with I am quite a decent PVPer.

No disrespect intended, just being honest: If you are being bursted down by high hp builds, that's on you.

High hp Bash and Corrosive builds got some real nice buffs from subclassing too. It's a legit playstyle now but still pretty easy to counter once you figure out their trick, generally animation cancelling a stun-bash combo. They're good into the meta burstplars who prefer to sit in their circle, but struggle into mobile Storm Calling builds. They're rarely as tanky as they look, and can be melted with pressure since they don't have as much room to stack hots.

Major_Mangle · May 19

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Yeeeahhh you're gonna be hard pressed to find people above 50k HP that are one shotting other players. 35k-40k? Sure, but the only 50k players that are one shotting people with proper builds are emperors. You just physically cannot get that high without sacrificing a lot.

If we´re strictly talking getting bursted by a 50k solo player then sure I tend to agree a bit, but you can easily run a 2-3 man in 45-50k HP setups without really sacrificing anything (have been able to do for a while to be honest, scribing just made it 10x easier).

Veinblood1965 · May 19

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

To start off with I am quite a decent PVPer.

No disrespect intended, just being honest: If you are being bursted down by high hp builds, that's on you.

High hp Bash and Corrosive builds got some real nice buffs from subclassing too. It's a legit playstyle now but still pretty easy to counter once you figure out their trick, generally animation cancelling a stun-bash combo. They're good into the meta burstplars who prefer to sit in their circle, but struggle into mobile Storm Calling builds. They're rarely as tanky as they look, and can be melted with pressure since they don't have as much room to stack hots.

No disrespect taken. You are correct in that if I'm getting blasted down quick it is on me. The only thing I really didn't expect was for it to happen so quickly while I was "blocking". Of course I have not just stood there either like that in a long time if ever. I have just noticed that lately there are more and more and now more such high health builds. For a long time high health did mean sacrificing something and it those builds were an annoyance and just leave them alone. Good for building your ultimate on though. The last few months this has not been the case.

Personally it does not really bother me as I'm usually grouped and we run a good guild. Just thinking back to when I first started it was tough. Now? Think were this is heading. No where good IMO. Us old players we will keep playing but we need new people to start enjoying and the way this is heading they will come in, then leave. I stayed when I first started, but if I started now I don't think I would.

xylena_lazarow · May 19

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

For a long time high health did mean sacrificing something and it those builds were an annoyance and just leave them alone. Good for building your ultimate on though. The last few months this has not been the case.

They sacrifice speed and range. They struggle to even hit my Streak DK at all, while I literally run circles around them as I melt them down. There's a neat little dueling RPS with the BurstPlar strats playing strong into Storm Calling pressure strats, which are strong into Corrosive Bash strats, which are strong into the BurstPlars.

cuddles_with_wroble · May 19

You guys are playing semantics with 50k vs 40k hp but his point is good and it stands either way.

We all know certain classes ability to stack nothing but health and resistance and source their damage purely thru procs and nothing else is a bit absurd atm (vamp abusers, vate ice enjoyers, jerals stackers, etc).

not to mean shield stacking with scribing skills which is also insane for group play and has made people way harder to kill in general

xylena_lazarow · May 19

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

We all know certain classes ability to stack nothing but health and resistance and source their damage purely thru procs and nothing else is a bit absurd atm (vamp abusers, vate ice enjoyers, jerals stackers, etc).

We do? Are you a time traveler from the Zaan Vamp Mist meta from like 4 years ago? All that stuff got nerfed hard, high HP pressure proc builds have been dead since the MDW nerf, which was the intended goal, most of those players moved onto Acuity Warden or similar for doing offensive tank playstyles. The pressure builds still around are modified dueling builds with midrange survival, not tanks, you very quickly lose too much pressure if you invest too much in defense.

Ball comps were already unkillable with Arcanist shields before Scribing hit, so nothing changed there.

cuddles_with_wroble · May 19

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

We all know certain classes ability to stack nothing but health and resistance and source their damage purely thru procs and nothing else is a bit absurd atm (vamp abusers, vate ice enjoyers, jerals stackers, etc).

We do? Are you a time traveler from the Zaan Vamp Mist meta from like 4 years ago? All that stuff got nerfed hard, high HP pressure proc builds have been dead since the MDW nerf, which was the intended goal, most of those players moved onto Acuity Warden or similar for doing offensive tank playstyles. The pressure builds still around are modified dueling builds with midrange survival, not tanks, you very quickly lose too much pressure if you invest too much in defense.

Ball comps were already unkillable with Arcanist shields before Scribing hit, so nothing changed there.

Well I was just talking about proc builds and ball groupers bcs they more often have 40 - 45k health but yes acuity warden is over performing as well but that’s an entirely different set of problems with it’s own solution

xylena_lazarow · May 19

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Well I was just talking about proc builds and ball groupers bcs they more often have 40 - 45k health but yes acuity warden is over performing as well but that’s an entirely different set of problems with it’s own solution

Comp groups are also their own problem, there's way too much power in spreadsheets and not nearly enough on the field. Praise Sithis for 8v8 solo BGs, group PvP is so much fun without comps skewing the power level.

kurbbie_s · May 19

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

To start off with I am quite a decent PVPer. I get my kills in whether solo or in a group. I know how to dodge, use line of site, etc. So this is not coming from a newbie who is sick of dying. I'm not dying all that much but what I mentioned in the subject line is just plain chasing people away from PVP.

We've all noticed it for a while now. You see entire groups running upper 40's, low 50k health. I'll be honest it's fun taking them down when you have a group yourself that is capable of coordinating. What I'm referring to is the mid to upper 50k health SOLO player who you cannot damage and they can pretty much one shot you. It's bad enough when this is something that a player is able to build, but it's even worse when they are grouped. It's causing less and less people to play the last few months. The only way to counter it is to do the same yourself. At first it was ok as it was just a few people here and there using such builds but now it's half a server or more. It's chasing the new people out of PVP. There is a hard enough of a learning curve in PVP that this is making it worse.

That being said no amount of theory crafting should allow anyone to be able to build such a build. You should have to sacrifice something. High health, then low resists or damage. Period. I decided to test it last night. There was a lone Warden player who had 53k health. I ran up and stood beside him and just blocked. I have high resists on my toon. He literally killed me within a second WHILE blocking. Seriously, while blocking with decent resists? Normally I'd roll dodge, use LoS etc. I absolutely did not expect that.

I'm probably just rambling it feels like but I cannot even imagine how this must be from a new players PVP perspective. I mean we all got one shotted when we first started, still do from time to time but if I was new and ran into entire groups like this I'd have gone back to Trials. I'm not saying it's not happening on my faction either. Last night we were taking a keep and we were attacked. I stopped and just started taking note of the health of the attacking team. Most were upper 40's low 50k health builds paired with heals. Same with our side. Anyone running less than that were pushing up daisies. I actually run low health on my NB but know how to avoid damage so it's normally not an issue, just not liking where all this is heading. Another few months and 90% of players will be using these builds.

Summary after my rant...High health, you should HAVE to sacrifice something. Period. I know it's probably hard to balance PVE expectations with PVP when ZoS is designing new sets etc but it's time to look at making some serious counters such as a set allowing you to being able to do more damage the more health someone has etc. Making it PVP specific so it does not make OP PVE builds for bosses etc.

too many proc sets and mythics have done this man. BG and below 50 pvp are the best places to pvp

CameraBeardThePirate · May 19

Major_Mangle wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Yeeeahhh you're gonna be hard pressed to find people above 50k HP that are one shotting other players. 35k-40k? Sure, but the only 50k players that are one shotting people with proper builds are emperors. You just physically cannot get that high without sacrificing a lot.

If we´re strictly talking getting bursted by a 50k solo player then sure I tend to agree a bit, but you can easily run a 2-3 man in 45-50k HP setups without really sacrificing anything (have been able to do for a while to be honest, scribing just made it 10x easier).

Sure, but OP gave a specific example of one person with 50k HP one shotting them.

It's either on OP, or the person they found was emp. Thats not really going to happen otherwise.

Theignson · May 20

You can’t really point to one thing that has made the game out of balance.

There has been error on top of error, dozens, that have led to the current PvP being hopelessly out of balance.

It’s been documented in literally hundreds of posts on these forums, so I won’t bother to recap once again

MISTFORMBZZZ · June 17

there is 50k hp nb´s with RoA and 50k hp wardens with mechanical.. Unkillable solo and doing still decent damage. This game is out of place

RealLoveBVB · June 17

kurbbie_s wrote: »

too many proc sets and mythics have done this man. BG and below 50 pvp are the best places to pvp

Because 8v8 is flooded with 18k hp casuals. Of course every "PvPer" have fun farming them and praising those BGs then.

If you can 1-or 2 shot players with a tanky bash build, then you have a safe proof how broken and unbalanced PVP is.

Investing in HP is meant to be defensive. This means you sacrifice damage to last longer.
Sword & board is meant to block damage and overall to last longer too.
Those defensive options can actually kill players as fast as a fully buffed nightblade.

Do you notice something? How can players even defend that?

PvP can easily balanced, if they reduce the damage output, the higher your HP and resistances are.

I miss the times, when real PVPer had 20k life, high burst damage, and their only survivability was their APM.

Sitting on 40k life and S&B or froststaff is cowardish and is far from being a skilled PVPer.

dark_hunterxmg · June 17

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

PvP can easily balanced, if they reduce the damage output, the higher your HP and resistances are.

I miss the times, when real PVPer had 20k life, high burst damage, and their only survivability was their APM.

Sitting on 40k life and S&B or froststaff is cowardish and is far from being a skilled PVPer.

Some classes/playstyles have heals that scale on max health. This would put them at a disadvantage to those who have heals which scale on weapon damage.

I don't think high health is the problem. High self-healing capacity is the problem. No single heal is really an issue. The amount of total healing provided by HoTs and heal return skills in addition to the burst heal is the problem. A player can have 6 of 12 skills with a healing mechanic slotted and still have an incredibly high damage output.

I proposed this once before. Damage output should scale inversely with healing output.

Udrath · June 17

I’ve noticed a lot of cyrodiil builds do not perform so well in battlegrounds as they do in cyrodiil, except a few. CP perks and all the other buffs from cyrodiil really do make some builds way better than they seem. Some players really know how use this to their advantage and get the most out of it, and it’s impressive from a min/max point of view.

I don’t really theorycraft anymore and do fine with last aeylid pretty much all the time now. While it’s good I do feel outmatched in cyrodiil sometimes but never in battlegrounds. Too me cyrodiil is a different playstyle and requires a lot more testing with a build or class.

I used to be a no-cp campaign guy and when I came to cp it was a huge difference, and never found the same interest I had with no-cp because of the different flow. If you dive deep into similar theory crafting you might enjoy it more, or que up for battlegrounds!

I agree with you though, and really wish ravenwatch was the main pvp hub.

xylena_lazarow · June 17

Udrath wrote: »

I agree with you though, and really wish ravenwatch was the main pvp hub.

It was never gonna happen, but yeah these days I've changed my mind and like the nocp environment better, mostly because it deals with the infinite sustain problem relatively well, and that alone really clamps down on the extreme builds that make everyone miserable. Broken proc sets, overpowered NB skills, and group heal stacking are still pain points, but the solution isn't a half measure like that weird restricted set list, it's to start over from the ground up: Vengeance.

xFocused · June 19

This is one of the main reasons I've quit playing PvP entirely, not the sole reason but definitely one of the top ones. It gets absolutely exhausting to constantly run into ball/comped groups where everyone has 50k+ health and is still putting out high numbers of damage. Even the small scale comped groups are running this way, added with multiple RoA sets in the group

thedude33 · June 29

I've been involved in PvP in all my games. EQ, DaoC, WoW, GW2. I have not experienced anything as wacky as ESO pvp. It's nonsensical for all the reasons listed here.

OccultOverload · June 30

The game really does seem to be losing the trade off of late. Extremely tanky players are able to do insane amounts of damage, while people building glass cannon can still hardly scratch a tank. It is concerning for sure.

MincMincMinc · July 1

Its not entirely impossible to wipe groups of players on a 50khp build. You really pigeon hole yourself though and become very obvious when burst is happening.

slot infused block cost reduction jewelry and 7 heavy immovable
Run a backbar setup of skills to sustain blocking (mag/stam restore sources)
Get damage from GUARANTEED sources.
Acuity(100% critchance)
Onslaught/corrosive(100% pen), granted onslaught gives pen based on your resists
Slot skills that scale without stats........ Master2h carve and Proxy det
Then fill in the rest of your build with %Crit damage since most sources are 2x of any %damage stat. For clarity ESO has 3 tiers of damage with each tier being worth nearly 50% more than the previous. 1. Max stats....near worthless 2. Weapon/spell damage 3. %damage done{pen} and {Critchance x %critdamage done}

OP sounds like they are complaining about ball groups though. Where their damage stats don't matter at all. 12 players hitting 12 ultimates at the same time will kill anything regardless of stats.

moo_2021 · July 1

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

If you can 1-or 2 shot players with a tanky bash build, then you have a safe proof how broken and unbalanced PVP is.

How is it unbalanced when everyone can just make their high defense / mobile and high attack builds? People running trials rely on theocrafting for min/max all the time. It's no different except in pvp many builds are not published.

I have seen such builds in mag/stam sorcs, cloaking NBs, necros, ... even a templar using the classic skills.

Mayrael · July 3

Alright, I hear you, and I get where you're coming from but if I won't see the build I won't believe it. To me, it sounds like a matter of player skill. From years of playing ESO PvP, I’ve learned to always expect the unexpected. Sometimes I overreact when someone attacks me, trying to actively defend the moment I sense a combo coming. Maybe that’s why I haven’t been “one-shot” or killed without a chance to react in a 1v1 for years.

Ganking or getting jumped in Xv1 situations? Sure, that can happen. But in a 1v1, when I’m actively defending, it’s a different story.

So, based on my experience, it’s tough to believe someone with a solid build and active defense could get one-shot by a 50k HP build that's why some evidence would be appreciated.

Thumbless_Bot · July 3

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

I agree with you though, and really wish ravenwatch was the main pvp hub.

It was never gonna happen, but yeah these days I've changed my mind and like the nocp environment better, mostly because it deals with the infinite sustain problem relatively well, and that alone really clamps down on the extreme builds that make everyone miserable. Broken proc sets, overpowered NB skills, and group heal stacking are still pain points, but the solution isn't a half measure like that weird restricted set list, it's to start over from the ground up: Vengeance.

It shouldn't be the solution but it probably is their ultimate solution. It will likely only solve the problem temporarily because zos is still zos and they will most likely start to introduce new things like sets and skills without fully understanding the strain these new things have on their servers and the impact to the gaming experience no matter what anyone tells them in these forums or elsewyer. That's why we are where we are with cyro in the first place.

That being said, literally anything that doesn't allow aoe pulls is a good idea.

Not what this thread is about, I know, but it also solves the 50k hp thing, which is what this thread is about, but I'm not sure that was a problem to begin with.

RealLoveBVB · July 3

Minute 15- 54.

Enjoy some "I bash everyone to death with my S&B and 44k HP

If you call that valid gameplay, then you have no sense what balancing is

Major_Mangle · July 3

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2464596262

Minute 15- 54.

Enjoy some "I bash everyone to death with my S&B and 44k HP

If you call that valid gameplay, then you have no sense what balancing is

It´s valid gameplay in the sense that once you know what the person is up to, the counterplay is so easy it´s ridiculous. You see the necro transform you´ve a decent amount of time to get out (with subclassing there are 0 excuses to not have good mobility on a character). From the gameplay shown from Decimus stream from the first BG I see nothing that´s "unbalanced", the kills he get are mainly vs people who are poorly geared without any proper PvP setup (and let me tell you, the amount of people who don´t play an actual PvP setup in BG´s these days are an overwhelming MAJORITY. I´ve logged enough BG´s and inspected enough players to know that).

The unbalanced 45-50k HP damage setups aren´t the "solo-builds" like you see Decimus play in that stream but rather those you see run in a 2-4 man with min/maxed buff-sets that allows you to sit at those HP levels without any real downsides.

Tcholl · July 3

No one with this amount of HP should be able to output any decent damage. This is not healthy PvP.

Of course, it will be worst with 2 or 3. It is a matter of logic. The issue is the still ongoing power creep in this game, which ultimately affects PvP as well.

It was a problem before and with sub classing and scribing it is much worse. This is the so called tank/healing meta, that have been going on for ages.

This situation lead to players either playing in group or in a zerg, at least in Cyro. Solo play is dead in this game.

moo_2021 · July 4

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Enjoy some "I bash everyone to death with my S&B and 44k HP

If you call that valid gameplay, then you have no sense what balancing is

Yes it is. If you see it performing in Cyrodiil or duels, you'd know it's not superior to any meta, and his other builds are far more impressive. Bash builds have high damage pressure but weak burst, because bash-based attacks have flat output while all weapon/spell damage have been traded for defense to make up for weak healing. The low resource and low recovery makes it susceptible to CCs, and low healing with high health and defense makes it vulnerable to oblivion damage and Hrothgar.

Do those weaknesses matter? Probably not. Many BG players never adepted. They don't even use scribing. When I first used a similar build I got 30 kills in every games despite not able to win any duel in IC or Cyro, with a much simpler rotation and just chased people around the map.

Mayrael · July 4

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2464596262

Minute 15- 54.

Enjoy some "I bash everyone to death with my S&B and 44k HP

If you call that valid gameplay, then you have no sense what balancing is

I still don’t see one-shots happening. You’ve got plenty of time to react when someone turns into a golem, uses Northern Storm, or pulls off similar moves.

I remember when Necro was first introduced—it was *the* Zerg-buster because Necro Bash was so broken, wiping out entire groups in under a second. Now, it’s pretty easy to counter it.

What a lot of people overlook in PvP is movement. It doesn’t show up on stat sheets, so it feels less important compared to damage, resistance, or max stats. But in ESO PvP, movement is everything. Master it, and you can 1vX way better than relying on resistances. In 1v1, it feels straight-up overpowered.