Be a non-pet mag Sorc, I think its the only class that has to rely on Max Stat.

If they took away hybridization, I think it would be bad for the player base. I'll be honest I think I'd enjoy it if they did implement your idea because it'd "lower the floor and raise the ceiling" again restoring the skill gap player between players who really understand complexities of the game from those that don't.

I think ZoS is catching onto the idea that nerfing things in the game people enjoy about the game has driven away some of the player base away. When your selling things to people to make money, you really need to sell people what they want, instead of selling them what they don't want and telling them to live with it. People will just go else where. I almost quit the game after a Warden nerf. I played Elden Ring for 8 months before I came back to it, I decided to pick up Sorc because it was the weakest class there was, and I kept thinking they are bound to buff this someday. lol

There was no illusion of choice when stamina and magicka mattered, and spell / weapon damage were separate. One had to make choices.

Break free and roll dodge are purely physical activities. One should never be able to choose between the two. This somewhat makes my point...that stam users while not having access to the spell damage or spell heal abilities...had their own benefits with a larger pool for roll/breakaway, not being silenced, etc.

You actually had to decide how much regen do I need vs. hvy attack vs potions, how much max stat do i need vs health, and crit vs pen vs raw dmg. - this was strategic and essentially each class had 2 classss... a stam version and magicka version. Now they don't. The hybridization dumbed down.

If subclassing is going to be the new thing, the hybridization of everything should not stay with it.

Saber I think the more complicated skill system your referring to was probably spell crafting. I can only think it would have erased class identity more than subbing classes do. I'm not sure class I identity will be erased all that much in PvP, due to the necessity of passives to make the classes work in an open world pvp setting where it is necessary to be tank, healer, and dps all in one, unless your in a very organized group, at which point the roles are Pull, Healer, Bomber, Rapids Bot, and Negate Bot or some combination thereof. PvE maybe a different animal altogether since the roles of dps, healer, and tank are so distinctly separated.

Wow, pvp in eso is pretty cool when you think about he diversities of roles. Here's wishing stat build would get a little buff over proc builds though, it'd sure make dealing with Ball Groups a bit easier if your not inclined to join one.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Sabre wrote: »

There was no illusion of choice when stamina and magicka mattered, and spell / weapon damage were separate. One had to make choices.

Break free and roll dodge are purely physical activities. One should never be able to choose between the two. This somewhat makes my point...that stam users while not having access to the spell damage or spell heal abilities...had their own benefits with a larger pool for roll/breakaway, not being silenced, etc.

You actually had to decide how much regen do I need vs. hvy attack vs potions, how much max stat do i need vs health, and crit vs pen vs raw dmg. - this was strategic and essentially each class had 2 classss... a stam version and magicka version. Now they don't. The hybridization dumbed down.

If subclassing is going to be the new thing, the hybridization of everything should not stay with it.

I'm not against mechanical niches for things. But was there really that much mechanical difference between a stamina and a magicka build before hybridization? If there was, was it just a difference between melee and ranged?

Is your question sincerely asking because you were not in ESO prior to hybridization, or a rhetorical question to suggest that you don't think there was a difference?

From my perspective, there was a huge difference. Several variables had to be always under consideration because max stamina effected Weapon damage and all Stamina abilities. The same variable existed for max magicka and magical abilities. The need for actual weapon and spell damage in addition to the max stat was needed. One might even think that max magicka or stamina should have been MORE important than maxing weapon or spell damage (as stam/mag functioned as a 'strength' stat vs only being a larger pool from which to use abilities. Physical Damage seemed to feel like it hit the hardest in general.

This effected pvp greatly because one couldn't simply stack health and mag/stam regen. In pve it was less of an issue - but survivability is at an all time high where one can have 5k+ weapon AND spell damage with health above 30-40k.
Surviveability in pve dumbs down the game, too. If there is a move to make the game more challenging with overland, delves, and public dungeons being more difficult - one might consider the dumbed down issue of overall survivability, too.
As a sidenote - health regen was also nerfed a bit (and for that matter should not be something that can be silenced with heal reduction curses). Health regen functioned as a constitution type of passive of character health, not just max life vs death.

The difference was not just a difference between melee and ranged. Stamina users without a bow for ranged hvy attack regen was an issue. Perhaps that is still an issue - although simplified because one can switch to a back bar and use a destruction or healing staff then switch back to their melee weapon. Large dynamic gameplay and character builds are the issue.

The main point is that hybridization basically opened up all skills to stamina users who it benefitted more. With subclassing, stamina builds are now being offered the stam morphs from all classes where less of an extant need for dumbing down with hybridization.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Sabre wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Sabre wrote: »

There was no illusion of choice when stamina and magicka mattered, and spell / weapon damage were separate. One had to make choices.

Break free and roll dodge are purely physical activities. One should never be able to choose between the two. This somewhat makes my point...that stam users while not having access to the spell damage or spell heal abilities...had their own benefits with a larger pool for roll/breakaway, not being silenced, etc.

You actually had to decide how much regen do I need vs. hvy attack vs potions, how much max stat do i need vs health, and crit vs pen vs raw dmg. - this was strategic and essentially each class had 2 classss... a stam version and magicka version. Now they don't. The hybridization dumbed down.

If subclassing is going to be the new thing, the hybridization of everything should not stay with it.

I'm not against mechanical niches for things. But was there really that much mechanical difference between a stamina and a magicka build before hybridization? If there was, was it just a difference between melee and ranged?

Is your question sincerely asking because you were not in ESO prior to hybridization, or a rhetorical question to suggest that you don't think there was a difference?

From my perspective, there was a huge difference. Several variables had to be always under consideration because max stamina effected Weapon damage and all Stamina abilities. The same variable existed for max magicka and magical abilities. The need for actual weapon and spell damage in addition to the max stat was needed. One might even think that max magicka or stamina should have been MORE important than maxing weapon or spell damage (as stam/mag functioned as a 'strength' stat vs only being a larger pool from which to use abilities. Physical Damage seemed to feel like it hit the hardest in general.

This effected pvp greatly because one couldn't simply stack health and mag/stam regen. In pve it was less of an issue - but survivability is at an all time high where one can have 5k+ weapon AND spell damage with health above 30-40k.
Surviveability in pve dumbs down the game, too. If there is a move to make the game more challenging with overland, delves, and public dungeons being more difficult - one might consider the dumbed down issue of overall survivability, too.
As a sidenote - health regen was also nerfed a bit (and for that matter should not be something that can be silenced with heal reduction curses). Health regen functioned as a constitution type of passive of character health, not just max life vs death.

The difference was not just a difference between melee and ranged. Stamina users without a bow for ranged hvy attack regen was an issue. Perhaps that is still an issue - although simplified because one can switch to a back bar and use a destruction or healing staff then switch back to their melee weapon. Large dynamic gameplay and character builds are the issue.

The main point is that hybridization basically opened up all skills to stamina users who it benefitted more. With subclassing, stamina builds are now being offered the stam morphs from all classes where less of an extant need for dumbing down with hybridization.

Question because my memory is hazy from back then. And I played PvE/VMA back then.

Far as I remember the "nuance" was for PvE DPS: Are you using Magicka? Stack Magicka/SP. If Stamina, then Stamina/WD. Same thing just with more restrictions. And with VMA just needed to add some heals depending on resource and sustain helped (EG: Vigor/Vicious Ophidian since I was StamNB)

As far as HP stacking in PvP, that's not really a hybridization issue. It's a Battle Spirit issue. All defensive abilities are effectively twice as beneficial over offensive abilities given offensive damage is halved. Which also means that an optimal attritionist build will typically want to be running lower resources in favor of regen in order to be able to more frequently use their defensive abilities that aren't halved on themselves.

Because of battle-spirit, defensive resources are twice as effective as offensive ones.

I guess another question I have for you is:
In your vision of distinguished ability costs, should an ultimate Magicka damage ability do the same damage as an ultimate Stamina damage ability?

My main point is that both hybridization and subclassing is too much of a candy store with no balance. Further, that hybridization has made your Weapon and Armor Warrior or Rogue a full fledged Mage, too.

The need for maximizing a main stat (mag or stam) offered balance and limitation to the abilities of a character. One could split them equally, but, while having access to all skills, would not be powerful in ALL skills. Hybridization eliminated this balance. Now, one can simply stack up weapon damage and become a magic user with equal power. This is ridiculously simple and removes all challenge to the articulation of class and skill choice. While giving all skills to everyone regardless...it simplified it. As was mentioned above - each class was divided into two classes, perhaps 3 if one includes a tanky high health character two. But the division between the two classes - such as a magicka nightblade or stam sorcerer...they were totally different in theory and skill use than their counterparts of stamina nightblade or magicka sorcerer...and the same could be said for all classes.

With subclassing - the elimination of hybridization would of course limit some skill use again because of the inherent choice that must be made between mag/stam spl/wpn dmg etc. But it would divide the classes into 2 again. Stamina users would have all of these subclassed stamina options without the need for hybridization. Of course, magicka users would have an immense 'spellbook' of skills across all classes with all of the magicka morphs of skills. However, to reiterate the point - choices would have to be made, character building would be more interesting. Giving everything to everyone with no balance, consequential choice is simply too much with both hybridization and subclassing combined. Followers and scribing did not exist back in the pre-hybrid days, with those added to the mix...hybridization is even more non-necessary (if it ever was) because more choices exist.

To address your question at the end of your post regarding ultimates. Pre-hybridization, most ultimate abilities did not seem as effected by max stat except where there was a physical dmg ultimate choice or magicka damage choice. Things like the fighter'ss guild skill line and the Dawnbreaker ultimate were more powerful - but rightfully so because it is 'fighter's guild' = it is for stamina / weapon / physical damage users at it's core.

Ultimates should work for either choice - mag or stam - except where a stam or magicka choice is present. This is a good question - as I can say I sometimes felt that ultimates should not be dependent on either one or the other except in some specific cases. For example..a warden with a bear would expect the bear to not be nerfed because they chose mag or stam, etc. The bear should work either way, as with most other ultimates.