The inevitable monetization of subclassing

Elowen_Starveil · April 17

Alcast has a writeup about subclassing here: https://alcasthq.com/eso-how-to-prepare-for-subclassing/. He points out that you have to level a skill line to 50 on a class in order to unlock it for use in subclassing, then you have to re-level it to 50 as a subclass line, at half the normal rate of advancement. However, at least that subclass skill line is shared among your other characters.

When they announced this feature was going to be free for base game, I was surprised. Given previous history, I expected this to cost 1500 or 2000 Crowns per character. Now the monetization angle becomes clear. They'll offer instant subclass skill leveling in the Crown store, and the only question becomes will it be 1500 or 2000 Crowns, and will that be for all 3 skill lines as a class, or per individual skill line? My guess is 1500 per skill line.

Major_Toughness · April 17

Hasn't been datamined which means this won't exist, at least on release.

Pevey · April 17

I have many concerns about subclassing, and I am very negative about ZOS's approach to monetization (and I think they could actually make MORE money with a different approach), but this is not an aspect of subclassing that concerns me. Leveling skill lines doesn't take very long, and many players already have at least one toon of each class anyway.

Elowen_Starveil · April 17

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Hasn't been datamined which means this won't exist, at least on release.

I'd be sorely tempted to hand over 31,500 Crowns to be done with it in one go. Suit yourself if you think 1) I'm alone, 2) launch wouldn't be the best time to do this, and 3) they're going to leave this kind of money on the table.

Elowen_Starveil · April 17

Pevey wrote: »

I have many concerns about subclassing, and I am very negative about ZOS's approach to monetization (and I think they could actually make MORE money with a different approach), but this is not an aspect of subclassing that concerns me. Leveling skill lines doesn't take very long, and many players already have at least one toon of each class anyway.

To each his own. I think leveling the whole thing, including both morphs, takes forever, and I get utterly sick of running Spellscar doing it. (And that's WITH a full XP gear setup and running pots and scrolls.) And, again, as subclass skill lines, they'll take twice as long.

Pevey · April 17

If you pay to level the skill line, you'll miss out on experimenting with it to learn how it actually works and how to properly use it. The option may be there eventually for anyone who wants to buy it, and I think that's fine. To me, there is nothing predatory about that. Some people like to buy skyshards, skill lines, etc. For me personally, I don't see the point of paying money so that I can avoid playing the game. The fun part to me is actually playing the game. In the past, whenever I've given in to taking shortcuts in any game I've played (via mods or whatever), I usually ended up regretting it because then the game feels pointless.

Stridig · April 17

Personally I hope they do make class skill lines purchasable through the crown store. Nothing wrong with a business doing business things. As long as it's obtainable by playing the game too.

Elowen_Starveil · April 17

Pevey wrote: »

If you pay to level the skill line, you'll miss out on experimenting with it to learn how it actually works and how to properly use it.

But in this case, a person has already leveled the skill line to 50 on at least one character, and presumably experimented with it already in that process.

Pevey · April 17

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

Pevey wrote: »

If you pay to level the skill line, you'll miss out on experimenting with it to learn how it actually works and how to properly use it.

But in this case, a person has already leveled the skill line to 50 on at least one character, and presumably experimented with it already in that process.

I haven't tested it on the PTS (don't want to download it this time, not too interested in the 2025 content), but my understanding is that it is either/or. If you don't already have an alt with the skill line maxed to 50, you can level it through the subclassing system.

Whichever is true, I think it's fine. People who are into trading keep complaining no one wants to buy anything. Pretty soon, people will be wanting XP consumables and training gear and consumables master writs.

Major_Toughness · April 17

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Hasn't been datamined which means this won't exist, at least on release.

I'd be sorely tempted to hand over 31,500 Crowns to be done with it in one go. Suit yourself if you think 1) I'm alone, 2) launch wouldn't be the best time to do this, and 3) they're going to leave this kind of money on the table.

[snip] what a waste of money.

How long does it take you to level a new characters skill lines to 50? Then break that down into XP Scrolls also available on the crown store, and see the cost that already exists.

They would be making one or the other purchases obsolete, and remove the aspect of having to play and experience class/skill lines once, which is a requirement for all of the Guild Skill Lines.

For me, it takes half an hour in BRP with a friend to max my character out, which I already have 20 of.

[edited for profanity bypass]

SeaGtGruff · April 17

I don't know whether there are any plans to eventually add "already-maxed-out" class skill lines in the Crown Store, but the more immediate potential for monetization is in slots for the Armory Station. A lot of players will probably want to buy several slots for at least one character-- if not the maximum number of slots, and if not for most or all of their characters-- so they can quickly swap between different subclassed builds depending on the situations they find themselves in.

Note, some players have probably done that, anyway, before subclassing was even on the drawing board. But I imagine that now there will be more players wanting to maximize their use of the Armory Station.

Pevey · April 17

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I don't know whether there are any plans to eventually add "already-maxed-out" class skill lines in the Crown Store, but the more immediate potential for monetization is in slots for the Armory Station. A lot of players will probably want to buy several slots for at least one character-- if not the maximum number of slots, and if not for most or all of their characters-- so they can quickly swap between different subclassed builds depending on the situations they find themselves in.

Note, some players have probably done that, anyway, before subclassing was even on the drawing board. But I imagine that now there will be more players wanting to maximize their use of the Armory Station.

Possibly, but for that to actually work, they need to fix the armory system to work with different versions of scribed skills.

I have never bought an outfit slot token or armory slot token in 11 years and never will until the make it account-wide. This is just one example where egregious pricing most likely leads to less revenue, because people who might otherwise buy are just completely turned off by the outrageous of it.

LPapirius · April 17

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

Alcast has a writeup about subclassing here: https://alcasthq.com/eso-how-to-prepare-for-subclassing/. He points out that you have to level a skill line to 50 on a class in order to unlock it for use in subclassing, then you have to re-level it to 50 as a subclass line, at half the normal rate of advancement. However, at least that subclass skill line is shared among your other characters.

When they announced this feature was going to be free for base game, I was surprised. Given previous history, I expected this to cost 1500 or 2000 Crowns per character. Now the monetization angle becomes clear. They'll offer instant subclass skill leveling in the Crown store, and the only question becomes will it be 1500 or 2000 Crowns, and will that be for all 3 skill lines as a class, or per individual skill line? My guess is 1500 per skill line.

I've already got every class leveled to 50 in every skill line. So for me it would just be a matter of leveling the skill line on a new toon, right?

thedocbwarren · April 17

If it costs something, I'll skip and leave alone. I think this feature is only for group and PVP, correct?

allochthons · April 17

I think you're misreading Alcast, or Alcast is incorrect. The page is unclear, he says both.

See this comment:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8299462/#Comment_8299462

licenturion wrote: »

This is completely wrong.

On the PTS the unlock conditions are tied to the class master achievements (this is clearly stated in the PTS help section). You can also see the reward is 'Upgrade: Skill Line Ardent Flame'. Those achievements and unlocks are not present in the current live version.

So when the update goes live there are 2 possibities:
- (Best case) ZOS already granted you server side the achievements when you boot you character for all you level 50 class skills.
- (Not best case) You have to log in and log out with each alt character one time to sync the achievement progress with your class skill levels.

But under no circumstance do you have to level those skills again from zero at half speed if you already have alts that either have already progressed or maxed out the skill line. Those master achievement progress is account wide. The only info missing is the fact if this progress still counts if you deleted alts with maxed out skill lines in the past.

There are no 2 versions of the same class skills.

Wereswan · April 17

LPapirius wrote: »

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

Alcast has a writeup about subclassing here: https://alcasthq.com/eso-how-to-prepare-for-subclassing/. He points out that you have to level a skill line to 50 on a class in order to unlock it for use in subclassing, then you have to re-level it to 50 as a subclass line, at half the normal rate of advancement. However, at least that subclass skill line is shared among your other characters.

When they announced this feature was going to be free for base game, I was surprised. Given previous history, I expected this to cost 1500 or 2000 Crowns per character. Now the monetization angle becomes clear. They'll offer instant subclass skill leveling in the Crown store, and the only question becomes will it be 1500 or 2000 Crowns, and will that be for all 3 skill lines as a class, or per individual skill line? My guess is 1500 per skill line.

I've already got every class leveled to 50 in every skill line. So for me it would just be a matter of leveling the skill line on a new toon, right?

This is actually untrue. It's linked to an account-wide achievement for reaching level 50 in a given line, so if you've already got everything levelled, it should just be a matter of logging in once patch 46 drops.

Pixiepumpkin · April 17

Solid point OP.

I mean 1500 PER skill line, sounds about right.

Why you ask?

Because ZOS charges 1500 crowns for a single outfit slot.

Lets do some math.

1500 crowns per outfit slot x 9 outfit slots = 13500 crowns PER character if you want 10 outfit slots (you are allowed 10 outflit slots per character, 1 is "free")

13500 crowns PER character x 20 characters = 270,000 crowns

The most cost efficient crown pack is the 21000 crown pack

270,000 divided by 21000 = 12.85 (rounded down) 21000 pack purchases

The best value crown pack (21000) at retail is &149.99, on sale it is $89.99

$149.99 x 12.85 = $1927.37 in order to unlock all outfit slots.
on sale $89.99 x 12.85 = $1156.37 in order to unlock all outfit slots.

The same scenario above also takes place with the armory slots. 10 per character, except 2 are "free".

1500 crowns per outfit slot x 8 armory slots = 12000 crowns PER character if you want 10 armory slots (you are allowed 10 armory slots per character, 2 are "free")

12000 crowns PER character x 20 characters = 240,000 crowns

The most cost efficient crown pack is the 21000 crown pack

240,000 divided by 21000 = 11.42 (rounded down) 21000 pack purchases

The best value crown pack (21000) at retail is &149.99, on sale it is $89.99

$149.99 x 11.42 = $1712.88 in order to unlock all armory slots.
on sale $89.99 x 11.42 = $1027.68 in order to unlock all armory slots.

So in total, if you intend to unlock all the outfit slots on an account and all the armory slots you will spend a grand total of

"Retail" price = $3640.25 yes, Three Thousand Six Hundred Fourty Dollars and 25 cents.
"Sale" price = $2184.05

And the worst part is, these are not things you can work towards.
Capitalism is one thing, this is something else in my opinion.

Please check my math, I am terrible at math.

Elowen_Starveil · April 17

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I don't know whether there are any plans to eventually add "already-maxed-out" class skill lines in the Crown Store, but the more immediate potential for monetization is in slots for the Armory Station. A lot of players will probably want to buy several slots for at least one character-- if not the maximum number of slots, and if not for most or all of their characters-- so they can quickly swap between different subclassed builds depending on the situations they find themselves in.

Note, some players have probably done that, anyway, before subclassing was even on the drawing board. But I imagine that now there will be more players wanting to maximize their use of the Armory Station.

I've brought this up before, that they should make this account wide. Fallout 76 -- by sister company Bethesda, and which is managed and monetized very, very similarly -- has a similar system, and it is account wide, except that the current max number of characters is 5.

But you can't make everyone happy, and that's nowhere proven more true than on this forum. People will complain that they've spent money buying slots that will be "lost." Fine. Make it account-wide, make it the highest number of slots you've paid for, and give Crown credits based on refunding duplicate purchases. I have 1 toon with 10 slots, one with 6, and a couple with 4. Give me 10 on all characters, and credit me for 14 others. Simple? Not around here.

Ragnarok0130 · April 17

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I don't know whether there are any plans to eventually add "already-maxed-out" class skill lines in the Crown Store, but the more immediate potential for monetization is in slots for the Armory Station. A lot of players will probably want to buy several slots for at least one character-- if not the maximum number of slots, and if not for most or all of their characters-- so they can quickly swap between different subclassed builds depending on the situations they find themselves in.

Note, some players have probably done that, anyway, before subclassing was even on the drawing board. But I imagine that now there will be more players wanting to maximize their use of the Armory Station.

Given that there's already guild and cyrodiil skill lines that you can buy in the crown store as long as you've already maxxed it out on one toon as well as skyshards I would not be the least bit surprised to see a "buy fully maxxed subclass lines" in the crown store.

SeaGtGruff · April 17

Pevey wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I don't know whether there are any plans to eventually add "already-maxed-out" class skill lines in the Crown Store, but the more immediate potential for monetization is in slots for the Armory Station. A lot of players will probably want to buy several slots for at least one character-- if not the maximum number of slots, and if not for most or all of their characters-- so they can quickly swap between different subclassed builds depending on the situations they find themselves in.

Note, some players have probably done that, anyway, before subclassing was even on the drawing board. But I imagine that now there will be more players wanting to maximize their use of the Armory Station.

Possibly, but for that to actually work, they need to fix the armory system to work with different versions of scribed skills.

I have never bought an outfit slot token or armory slot token in 11 years and never will until the make it account-wide. This is just one example where egregious pricing most likely leads to less revenue, because people who might otherwise buy are just completely turned off by the outrageous of it.

I've never purchased an outfit slot token, because I don't use outfits, except on rare occasions for completing an Endeavor, and then I only use it with free outfit styles (the Hide Helmet option and the Imperial style). If I ever do decide to embrace the Outfitting system, I expect I'll be able to manage with just one outfit slot per character.

I did buy an extra Armory slot for each of my two main characters (PCNA and PCEU), because they were on sale and I had some spare Crowns on hand. But I've never actually used the Armory Station yet. I've never been a big fan of creating multiple setups and having to swap between them in a game-- that's one thing about Blades that's held me back from playing it more. But if I ever do start using the Armory Station-- which I do plan to do, eventually-- I expect I'll be able to manage with just one or two slots per character, so I probably won't be inclined to purchase any more slots unless they're on sale, and even then they'd be a low-priority item for me.

A lot of players will probably just try to use the best all-around build they can find for whichever role they play on a particular character, so they might not be inclined to purchase any more slots, either. But surely there are a lot of players who do use the Armory Station to swap between different builds based on whatever situation they're in, and they are probably the ones who'll be most interested in purchasing more slots once Subclasses go live-- that is, if they haven't already purchased the maximum number of slots on their favorite characters.

PrinceShroob · April 17

Having tried the system on PTS:

1. You have to log into each character to receive the achievements for that character's class.
2. Having a character of a class who is level 50 only skips the quest for acquiring the skill line.
3. Your characters' progress on a subclass skill line is independent of the skill levels of your characters with that actual class. That is, if you have a level 50 Templar, it doesn't matter that you have Aedric Spear at 50--you're leveling it from 1 if you add Aedric Spear to another non-Templar character.
4. The subclass-specific skill lines are account-wide.

So when the system makes its entrance, you'll have 21 new skill lines to level at half speed. I hope you like Hiath the Battlemaster's voice, you'll be hearing it a lot.

allochthons · April 17

During the live stream (timestamped link: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2429316140?t=00h42m18s,) Carrie Day, a systems designer who is specifically working on subclassing, clearly says that if you have a skill-line fully leveled on a character, it will be automatically unlocked for subclassing on other characters. ETA: Unlocked, but not leveled.

The subclass leveling only applies if you don't already have a skill line unlocked on any existing(*) character.

You also have to have at least 1 level 50 character.

* Deleted character's skill lines won't count.

h/t to licenturion for the timestamped link.

Elowen_Starveil · April 17

allochthons wrote: »

During the live stream (timestamped link: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2429316140?t=00h42m18s,) Carrie Day, a systems designer who is specifically working on subclassing, clearly says that if you have a skill-line fully leveled on a character, it will be automatically unlocked for subclassing on other characters.

The subclass leveling only applies if you don't already have a skill line unlocked on any existing(*) character.

You also have to have at least 1 level 50 character.

* Deleted character's skill lines won't count.

h/t to licenturion for the timestamped link.

This seems to be in direct disagreement with the Alcast article and the previous commenters direct experience. Am I missing something? Are you disputing that you have to re-level the subclassed skills (one time) on other classes? (I watched the comment, but it's confusing.)

PrinceShroob · April 17

allochthons wrote: »

During the live stream (timestamped link: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2429316140?t=00h42m18s,) Carrie Day, a systems designer who is specifically working on subclassing, clearly says that if you have a skill-line fully leveled on a character, it will be automatically unlocked for subclassing on other characters.

The subclass leveling only applies if you don't already have a skill line unlocked on any existing character.

Unlocked, yes. Leveled, no.

I can assure you that, regardless of what the stream seemed to imply, as the system is implemented on PTS right now, your characters' skill line progress is irrelevant except insofar as unlocking the account-wide version of the subclass skill line to level.

My understanding is that, if you do not have a character of a certain class, you must perform a quest to unlock that class' skill lines for subclassing. However, as I have characters of every class, I was unable to see these quests. I also haven't heard any discussion of them. In hindsight, it's a bit odd that I'm not aware of any limitations--shouldn't subclassing into Necromancer, Arcanist, and Warden require that you have purchased those classes?

allochthons · April 17

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

This seems to be in direct disagreement with the Alcast article and the previous commenters direct experience. Am I missing something? Are you disputing that you have to re-level the subclassed skills (one time) on other classes? (I watched the comment, but it's confusing.)

I am disputing Alcast and the others.
It's clear to me what the dev is saying. I think what people are seeing on the PTS is either misunderstood, or, (more likely) a bug.

Jessica: "If a player doesn't have a skill-line, does the player have to get those skill-lines on a different character, before they have it unlocked in subclassing, or no?"
Carrie: "No. There are two ways you can have access to the skill-lines you using in subclassing. The first is if you have the prerequisite experience, so if you have alts, and those alts are level 50 in those other classes, those skill lines that have hit level 50 are unlocked for your account."
(and then she explains leveling the skills if you don't have them already unlocked.)

Timestamp: 1:31:40

But I could be wrong. I'm just another player.

Never mind. I've re-watched. She does say they're *unlocked* but not leveled. And I just asked a streamer who had access to the beta. They confirm: Skills have to be leveled.

Mea Culpa.

Elowen_Starveil · April 17

PrinceShroob wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

During the live stream (timestamped link: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2429316140?t=00h42m18s,) Carrie Day, a systems designer who is specifically working on subclassing, clearly says that if you have a skill-line fully leveled on a character, it will be automatically unlocked for subclassing on other characters.

The subclass leveling only applies if you don't already have a skill line unlocked on any existing character.

Unlocked, yes. Leveled, no.

I can assure you that, regardless of what the stream seemed to imply, as the system is implemented on PTS right now, your characters' skill line progress is irrelevant except insofar as unlocking the account-wide version of the subclass skill line to level.

My understanding is that, if you do not have a character of a certain class, you must perform a quest to unlock that class' skill lines for subclassing. However, as I have characters of every class, I was unable to see these quests. I also haven't heard any discussion of them. In hindsight, it's a bit odd that I'm not aware of any limitations--shouldn't subclassing into Necromancer, Arcanist, and Warden require that you have purchased those classes?

Yeah, this clarifies the unlock quest thing. I get it now.

And, yeah, re-leveling a skill line at half speed is going to be a drag.

old_scopie1945 · April 17

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

Alcast has a writeup about subclassing here: https://alcasthq.com/eso-how-to-prepare-for-subclassing/. He points out that you have to level a skill line to 50 on a class in order to unlock it for use in subclassing, then you have to re-level it to 50 as a subclass line, at half the normal rate of advancement. However, at least that subclass skill line is shared among your other characters.

When they announced this feature was going to be free for base game, I was surprised. Given previous history, I expected this to cost 1500 or 2000 Crowns per character. Now the monetization angle becomes clear. They'll offer instant subclass skill leveling in the Crown store, and the only question becomes will it be 1500 or 2000 Crowns, and will that be for all 3 skill lines as a class, or per individual skill line? My guess is 1500 per skill line.

I'm sure that you have a point here.

old_scopie1945 · April 17

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

During the live stream (timestamped link: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2429316140?t=00h42m18s,) Carrie Day, a systems designer who is specifically working on subclassing, clearly says that if you have a skill-line fully leveled on a character, it will be automatically unlocked for subclassing on other characters.

The subclass leveling only applies if you don't already have a skill line unlocked on any existing(*) character.

You also have to have at least 1 level 50 character.

* Deleted character's skill lines won't count.

h/t to licenturion for the timestamped link.

This seems to be in direct disagreement with the Alcast article and the previous commenters direct experience. Am I missing something? Are you disputing that you have to re-level the subclassed skills (one time) on other classes? (I watched the comment, but it's confusing.)

I had the same take as dk_dunkirk, but have also read on PTS is what Alcast stated. It is ZOS after all, incorrect communications or PTS balls up. Take your pick.

old_scopie1945 · April 17

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

Pevey wrote: »

I have many concerns about subclassing, and I am very negative about ZOS's approach to monetization (and I think they could actually make MORE money with a different approach), but this is not an aspect of subclassing that concerns me. Leveling skill lines doesn't take very long, and many players already have at least one toon of each class anyway.

To each his own. I think leveling the whole thing, including both morphs, takes forever, and I get utterly sick of running Spellscar doing it. (And that's WITH a full XP gear setup and running pots and scrolls.) And, again, as subclass skill lines, they'll take twice as long.

I am getting more depressed every hour over all these shenanigans. Good lesson on how to generate less interest. With the world going to hell in a handcart, I don't need all this malarkey.

LunaFlora · April 17

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/676209/pts-patch-notes-v11-0-0#latest
• Introduction of a new champion star: Disicipline Artisan on the green champion star which increases the amount of experience gained for active skill lines and abilities.

^ will help with leveling subclass skill lines.
along with Experience Scrolls and Master Writs, it doesn't seem like leveling new lines will be super long.

to comment on the start of the thread,
i doubt we'll get monetisation related to Subclassing besides needing to purchase a DLC class if you don't own it, but that isn't new.
The progress on subclass lines is account-wide so it's not similar to the other skill lines in the crown store.

WhiteScythe · April 18

The entire leadership knows the game is predatory. We as the players, have to stand against it.