Subclasses and the impact on the balance of PvP

ForumBully · April 13

I have a question that doesn't seem to warrant its own post so I'll ask in a PvP specific post....did ZoS finally get sick enough of the Alliance War board to actually kill it? I can't find it

Edit: found it...very sneaky

Ooof...the most recent post was October last year...ghosttown...

ThoraxtheDark · April 13

I love how this thread had just abandoned all hope for balance . Pretty telling how people don't event expect the job to be done in regards to balance. That bird already flew the coop.

Now it's only about damage control , that's how low the bar is zos. Your player base will let you get away with murder if only you just keep adding changes to the game.

Doesn't even matter what changes. People will settle for anything . Pvp will never be balanced because they choose that

shezof · April 13

Actual pvpers already know subclassing destroys PvP. it was good while lasted

QB1 · April 13

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

I love it. When everything is op, nothing is. Can't wait to make tri class monstrosities.

Exactly this.

It’s only a few hours into this announcement and you already so dozens of “This class with X class skill is going to be OP” There will be lots of options and it’s going to raise the skill ceiling too.

No. It'll result in a tank meta. The hyper toxic oneshot builds will drive everyone to be as tanky as possible, which is now easier than ever and thus everyone will turtle up and we'll be in the most boring state that PvP has ever seen. And those who refuse to chase the meta will be blown up on the spot of course.

There is the fun state of "everything is OP" and there is the unfun state of "everything is OP". Three months into Update 46, we'll be wishing it never happened as ZOS will inevitably nerf the fun parts of what used to be class defining skills in Update 47 now that everyone is abusing them in ways that they were never intended to be used in.

How is that any different than what we currently have in PvP?

QB1 · April 13

"We already have an excruciating ballgroup meta and high health tanks plaguing the map."

So you're saying that subclassing isn't going to change much of anything? lol

QB1 · April 13

ArchMikem wrote: »

Did everyone forget about the Vengeance Camp? There's every possibility that will come back permanently, making this a moot point.

Would love a permanent vengeance campaign but subclassing to be included in that.

Sarannah wrote: »

OP, this feature(subclassing) is actually what most PvPers have asked for after the vengeance test... PvPers did not want the bare minimum skills available vengeance campaign where everyone was mostly equal, they(PvPers) wanted all their power in Cyrodiil to be fully available to them. In truth ZOS can't balance that power, so they now grant that power to everyone.

Instant near 100% balance!

Yup, this ^^ Vengeance was awesome overall. Adding subclassing to it and the rest of the weapon and world/guild skills and we're cooking with gas🔥

xylena_lazarow · April 13

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I think you underestimate the destruction of what is left in Gray Host Cyrodiil could be.

Like I say. Can't destroy what's already broken. Can't kill what's already dead.

If anything, subclassing will let you pack more power into a lower apm build setup if that's your concern. Jank builds will be able to crutch on 1-2 overpowered skills and close the gap, while ultra efficient narrow margin minmax builds will have to make some very painful choices over what to trade out and what to leave off their bars.

You're also underestimating Vengeance, I thought it was a kiddie pool at first too until I dueled some sweaty players, and saw a lot of room for skill expression. I think with more skills and sieges, large scale will follow.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ball groups are going to have a field day mixing and matching the skill lines.

And I'm sure they'll have more fun theorycrafting than piloting, once they realize their strat hasn't changed at all, they've merely gone from unkillable gods to... unkillable gods. Same lag and pug stomping as always.

Tandor · April 13

ForumBully wrote: »

I have a question that doesn't seem to warrant its own post so I'll ask in a PvP specific post....did ZoS finally get sick enough of the Alliance War board to actually kill it? I can't find it

Edit: found it...very sneaky

Ooof...the most recent post was October last year...ghosttown...

All the forums were reviewed and some were merged, it sounds like the one you want is PVP Activities, which you'll find on the main forum list.

PeacefulAnarchy · April 13

ForumBully wrote: »

I have a question that doesn't seem to warrant its own post so I'll ask in a PvP specific post....did ZoS finally get sick enough of the Alliance War board to actually kill it? I can't find it

Edit: found it...very sneaky

Ooof...the most recent post was October last year...ghosttown...

you're looking at an archived version. they merged a bunch of boards to clean up it is here and active

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/pvp-activities

ForumBully · April 13

Tandor wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

I have a question that doesn't seem to warrant its own post so I'll ask in a PvP specific post....did ZoS finally get sick enough of the Alliance War board to actually kill it? I can't find it

Edit: found it...very sneaky

Ooof...the most recent post was October last year...ghosttown...

All the forums were reviewed and some were merged, it sounds like the one you want is PVP Activities, which you'll find on the main forum list.

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

I have a question that doesn't seem to warrant its own post so I'll ask in a PvP specific post....did ZoS finally get sick enough of the Alliance War board to actually kill it? I can't find it

Edit: found it...very sneaky

Ooof...the most recent post was October last year...ghosttown...

you're looking at an archived version. they merged a bunch of boards to clean up it is here and active

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/pvp-activities

Great, thanks!

ADarklore · April 13

Perhaps they should just disable subclasses for PvP.

RebornV3x · April 13

Subclassing Its going to be absolutely broken for PVP. I already have some crazy combos in my head and its not pretty. I can only imagine what the sweaty theorycrafters are capable of creating when this goes live. No doubt about it subclassing will be tremendously broken and I'm not looking forward to it luckily I don't PVP anymore so I don't care if it was up to me I would get rid of PVP entirely in this game but anyways.

Lags · April 13

Poss wrote: »

I know Mr Wheeler touched on this in the stream about how the devs are going to monitor the whole effect on balance but I don’t have much hope with that.

I’m honestly excited about this for PvE, it’s going to complete shake up trial comps but I’m very VERY worried for Cyrodiil.

We already have an excruciating ballgroup meta and high health tanks plaguing the map. Adding this to PvP is a very bad idea and will likely push players away. Corrosive incap speccy builds with sorc shields and streak? Nah this really hasn’t been thought through

its torched bro. dont even worry about it. its going to be a disaster, and very chaotic, but at this point all we can do it try and have fun. Just expect having a ton of broken builds that dont get adjusted for a looooong time.

gc0018 · April 14

When they come up to the subclass, it means they don't care pvp at all. I never seen a pvp game without differential. Even CS allow everyone use different guns for different task.

My guess is pvp don't real make profits.

Wereswan · April 14

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I think you underestimate the destruction of what is left in Gray Host Cyrodiil could be.

Like I say. Can't destroy what's already broken. Can't kill what's already dead.

If anything, subclassing will let you pack more power into a lower apm build setup if that's your concern. Jank builds will be able to crutch on 1-2 overpowered skills and close the gap, while ultra efficient narrow margin minmax builds will have to make some very painful choices over what to trade out and what to leave off their bars.

You're also underestimating Vengeance, I thought it was a kiddie pool at first too until I dueled some sweaty players, and saw a lot of room for skill expression. I think with more skills and sieges, large scale will follow.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ball groups are going to have a field day mixing and matching the skill lines.

And I'm sure they'll have more fun theorycrafting than piloting, once they realize their strat hasn't changed at all, they've merely gone from unkillable gods to... unkillable gods. Same lag and pug stomping as always.

Presumably, ball groups do this the same way organized trial groups do: start with a chart of buffs, debuffs, and synergies, and then theorycraft how to cram as many as possible into one group. Subclassing opens up two possibilities: either you can build more redundancy into a group (and thus, successfully cutting one player out won't necessarily hurt as much anymore) or you can cram those same skills into a smaller, but more efficient group, at the expense of making it more brittle—and run more of them.

Imagine how much "fun" things get with 4-5 immortal ball groups running around during peak hours, instead of 3.

xylena_lazarow · April 14

Wereswan wrote: »

Imagine how much "fun" things get with 4-5 immortal ball groups running around during peak hours, instead of 3.

It doesn't change how many of them are actually good at the ball strat. The mid groups will have mid spreadsheets and still wipe to pugs. The top groups will continue to be the same immortal gods. At least this gives random zergers some new toys to play with, in between being repeatedly stomped by immortal god groups, no different from now.

PunkAben · August 6

Everything has changed with subclassification.
Because the PvP game has become very different, which has some good sides and less good sides.
In a PvP event there is usually always a long queue to get into Cyrodiil, but fortunately there is no longer, you get in immediately or only in a short queue, that is the good side.
The less good side is that when you can't gather more players for an event, it will look pretty bad after the event stops.
I think Cyrodiil will be more dead and dying than any site before, but that is probably the intention from Zenimax.
Why it will be so dead and dying you can only guess, whether it is due to the non-transparent part of the game, which has become much more opaque or other factors because people don't bother with PvP, I won't make myself the judge.
I can only see that the people who like PvP in Cyrodiil have a difficult future with few players.
With fewer players there will be a clear advantage to the ballgroups running around, which some hate, but are part of the game and it will possibly have a reinforcing effect on some players choosing the PvP part from.
In my opinion, PvP should be changed so that it becomes more attractive, like for example during the test in Cyrodiil, where a lot of people played and found it fun.

RIP Cyrodiil.