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Vengeance while you work on next
Kungfu
✭✭✭✭
Yet another request for Vengeance while you (ZOS) develop the next steps.
Just take a look at current Gray Host populations! They are in the basement since Vengeance.
Why? Clearly a very large number of people enjoyed it and would come to play. So much so that even when there is NO choice between Gray Host & Vengeance, people are choosing to not play Cyro at all than to play Gray Host.
I am seeing this from three different demographics:
How do we know Gray Host is lacking in numbers? I have to be factual: it's mostly by feel. But I think I've gotten a pretty good feel for it having played out there multiple days each week over the last ~11 years (with a couple of 6-month to 1-year hiatuses). In recent years, Gray Host would be pop-locked at 2pm-ish Central time on any given day.
(edit) I failed to follow this point up: Prior to Vengeance, populations were much higher. Yes, there were queue times and that's less fun I suppose. But current "bars" and time-of-day those "bars" change to locks is definitely later in the day than pre-Vengeance. And even when locks start, I would submit that the queue times are much, much shorter during prime time than prior.(/edit)
Just plug in Vengeance for a week again and watch & see what happens. What could it hurt?
Best recommendation I've seen is to tuck it up as a second option in the "Under 50" group. This might hide it a bit but don't limit it to only "under 50" people. One of the great benefits of Vengeance was that it felt like a great training ground - a place where older, seasoned players often had good advice for newer ones.
Why is this important to ESO overall? It's a business decision after all, right?
Cyrodiil is a niche product. ZOS - surely you see that you have a product here that NO OTHER GAME HAS. Other games have battlegrounds and do them better. Other games have housing. Whether they do that better or not... that's really subjective. But it's not unique - that's the point. I will say nobody does dungeons and trials like ESO does - but they do have the experiences. There. Is. Nothing. Like. Cyrodiil. Anywhere else.
Do you think Apple became what they are by mimicking Microsoft? Did Google change the world by imitating Yahoo? No. These companies did what ZOS needs to do: focus on the one thing you have that NO ONE else does.
How does Cyrodiil population help the game population, in general? In short: it keeps people coming back and that brings more to the game & offers more opportunities that the crown store or a temporary event might snag their attention.
@ZOS_Kevin I say all of the above out of desperation. My primary guild has been slowly choosing not to log in at all. Fewer and fewer people are even playing PVE now and the attrition is due to having had a taste of Vengeance & having that rug yanked out from under them.
A shorter version of what's happening from the two guilds I'm playing with & one other I've been monitoring discussions in:
Vengeance was first and foremost readily accessible by all and all were able to find some form of success without feeling stomped on by the usual complaints (ball groups, unkillable builds, poor server performance, massive CP discrepancies, etc. etc.).
Now these people don't want to play Gray Host or non-CP... they even tire of battlegrounds after a few rounds. And I hear the same every time - "It's just not Vengeance. I would be out there if they had it."
So we go PVE. We run a trial. Do some pledges. Maybe a DLC vet hard mode. One or two of those and they're PVE'd out. People who played for 4+ hours at a time just a few weeks ago are logging out after a couple of hours, if they log in at all. And the time between logging out and back in is growing to days between now for many.
I will not stop this until we are heard. Kill the thread, ban me, do whatever you need... I am just the collective voice for others right now. I will have them come post if I cannot.
Edited by Kungfu on April 10, 2025 2:52PM Just take a look at current Gray Host populations! They are in the basement since Vengeance.
Why? Clearly a very large number of people enjoyed it and would come to play. So much so that even when there is NO choice between Gray Host & Vengeance, people are choosing to not play Cyro at all than to play Gray Host.
I am seeing this from three different demographics:
- The seasoned old veterans of Cyro that I've run with for a decade or more now. Two of them last night alone logged into Gray Host for an hour and left because
- Even the "biggest fight of the day" up to that point according to zone chat was ... maybe 50 people total - both sides. The third faction even started showing up. Presumably because they had to in order to find a decent fight.
- The only "large" battles that could be found beyond that included nigh-unkillable builds. Sure, we can beat them. We are usually the ones that eventually do. But it's not fun. Chasing someone around a resource or keep tower for 30 minutes with neither side losing someone gets tiresome.
- Neither of the above happened in Vengeance. Especially the longer, small team fights: either we killed them or they killed us and we all moved on.
- A few players who have been around for a couple of years now. Pretty casual folks who love PVP'ing in Cyrodiil's large scale battles.
- These folks won't even try Gray Host right now. When I invite them, all I hear is "I'll wait until next phase of Vengeance is back. Gray Host isn't fun."
- Two of them who were logging in every day didn't even log in three days over the past weekend because they both said something similar to "I got sick of only having PVE or battlegrounds and all I want to do is Vengeance"
- Four VERY new players - having played less than a year. All are CP but very low... like 600ish or less
- Not one of them will touch Gray Host. Though they did not before Vengeance, either. All four absolutely loved Vengeance and the most common comment I've gotten from them is a combination of "Why would I go out there just to get wrecked?" and "I will wait for Vengeance so I can play on an equal level again with you guys"
- The other explanation is: "Even if I go into the no-CP campaign, I have to have a build and I'll still get wrecked. None of the campaigns are new-player friendly."
How do we know Gray Host is lacking in numbers? I have to be factual: it's mostly by feel. But I think I've gotten a pretty good feel for it having played out there multiple days each week over the last ~11 years (with a couple of 6-month to 1-year hiatuses). In recent years, Gray Host would be pop-locked at 2pm-ish Central time on any given day.
(edit) I failed to follow this point up: Prior to Vengeance, populations were much higher. Yes, there were queue times and that's less fun I suppose. But current "bars" and time-of-day those "bars" change to locks is definitely later in the day than pre-Vengeance. And even when locks start, I would submit that the queue times are much, much shorter during prime time than prior.(/edit)
Just plug in Vengeance for a week again and watch & see what happens. What could it hurt?
Best recommendation I've seen is to tuck it up as a second option in the "Under 50" group. This might hide it a bit but don't limit it to only "under 50" people. One of the great benefits of Vengeance was that it felt like a great training ground - a place where older, seasoned players often had good advice for newer ones.
Why is this important to ESO overall? It's a business decision after all, right?
Cyrodiil is a niche product. ZOS - surely you see that you have a product here that NO OTHER GAME HAS. Other games have battlegrounds and do them better. Other games have housing. Whether they do that better or not... that's really subjective. But it's not unique - that's the point. I will say nobody does dungeons and trials like ESO does - but they do have the experiences. There. Is. Nothing. Like. Cyrodiil. Anywhere else.
Do you think Apple became what they are by mimicking Microsoft? Did Google change the world by imitating Yahoo? No. These companies did what ZOS needs to do: focus on the one thing you have that NO ONE else does.
How does Cyrodiil population help the game population, in general? In short: it keeps people coming back and that brings more to the game & offers more opportunities that the crown store or a temporary event might snag their attention.
-
Players who love your niche product have to come here to play it and people who fall in love with Cyro gameplay keep logging in. That means they come back. The more that come back, the more chances each one of them will get tempted by and hooked on housing, pve content, costumes, tokens like faction swaps, race change, name change, etc. etc. etc.
Your Cyrodiil players are FEIRCELY loyal. Often to a fault
And that loyalty reaches much farther than alliance & cyrodiil... it's indicative of a personality trait that reaches into the game itself.@ZOS_Kevin I say all of the above out of desperation. My primary guild has been slowly choosing not to log in at all. Fewer and fewer people are even playing PVE now and the attrition is due to having had a taste of Vengeance & having that rug yanked out from under them.
A shorter version of what's happening from the two guilds I'm playing with & one other I've been monitoring discussions in:
Vengeance was first and foremost readily accessible by all and all were able to find some form of success without feeling stomped on by the usual complaints (ball groups, unkillable builds, poor server performance, massive CP discrepancies, etc. etc.).
Now these people don't want to play Gray Host or non-CP... they even tire of battlegrounds after a few rounds. And I hear the same every time - "It's just not Vengeance. I would be out there if they had it."
So we go PVE. We run a trial. Do some pledges. Maybe a DLC vet hard mode. One or two of those and they're PVE'd out. People who played for 4+ hours at a time just a few weeks ago are logging out after a couple of hours, if they log in at all. And the time between logging out and back in is growing to days between now for many.
I will not stop this until we are heard. Kill the thread, ban me, do whatever you need... I am just the collective voice for others right now. I will have them come post if I cannot.
10
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JustLovely✭✭✭✭✭
✭I hated vengence mode. And so did most PvP mains. That's why there wasn't even a queue during prime time on the weekend for the last two days of the "test". I'd rather never see vengeance mode again in any capacity. And if it becomes mandatory, my days of playing ESO are over.
However, this might not be a bad idea. Then ZOS can see first hand how fast people get bored with it and quit playing vengeance mode. The PvP mains won't stick around for it, and the PvE crowd won't ever play any version of PvP long term.3 -
Kungfu✭✭✭✭JustLovely wrote: »And if it becomes mandatory, my days of playing ESO are over.
And yet, nothing in what I'm recommending even remotely suggests that.5 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭✭✭
✭JustLovely wrote: »I hated vengence mode. And so did most PvP mains. That's why there wasn't even a queue during prime time on the weekend for the last two days of the "test". I'd rather never see vengeance mode again in any capacity. And if it becomes mandatory, my days of playing ESO are over.
However, this might not be a bad idea. Then ZOS can see first hand how fast people get bored with it and quit playing vengeance mode. The PvP mains won't stick around for it, and the PvE crowd won't ever play any version of PvP long term.
"I didnt like vengeance, therefore the majority didn't" Please, vengeance saw 3x the full pop lock for multiple days straight with no performance issues. Greyhost barely sustains pop lock a few days a week with catastrophic performance issues.
Best case scenario is zos has GH and vengeance, and requires new players to only play in vengeance until they hit a certain cp to be able to try GH. Old players can choose whether they want proc soup or a "dumbed down" pvp experience. With a running vengeance server they can test as they please and continue to work on what is enabled. Eventually vengeance would ideally have all the normal systems in place, but reworked for performance.We should use the insightful and awesome buttons more10 -
JustLovely✭✭✭✭✭
✭MincMincMinc wrote: »JustLovely wrote: »I hated vengence mode. And so did most PvP mains. That's why there wasn't even a queue during prime time on the weekend for the last two days of the "test". I'd rather never see vengeance mode again in any capacity. And if it becomes mandatory, my days of playing ESO are over.
However, this might not be a bad idea. Then ZOS can see first hand how fast people get bored with it and quit playing vengeance mode. The PvP mains won't stick around for it, and the PvE crowd won't ever play any version of PvP long term.
"I didnt like vengeance, therefore the majority didn't" Please, vengeance saw 3x the full pop lock for multiple days straight with no performance issues. Greyhost barely sustains pop lock a few days a week with catastrophic performance issues.
Best case scenario is zos has GH and vengeance, and requires new players to only play in vengeance until they hit a certain cp to be able to try GH. Old players can choose whether they want proc soup or a "dumbed down" pvp experience. With a running vengeance server they can test as they please and continue to work on what is enabled. Eventually vengeance would ideally have all the normal systems in place, but reworked for performance.
I'm not basing my statement on only my opinion. I run in a guild raid daily for almost 8 years now. Nobody in the guild liked vengeance. Most people in other PvP guilds I've spoken to also did not like vengeance mode in any way. It was horribly bad and boring.
Your mischaracterization of my comment is inaccurate and inappropriate.
Additionally, there is virtually zero chance ZOS will support 2 entirely different game modes for PvP going forward. They will pick the one they see fit, and it will probably be the end of the original version of PvP us PvP mains log in to play.
Edited by JustLovely on April 10, 2025 3:41PM2 -
Iriidius✭✭✭✭✭JustLovely wrote: »I hated vengence mode. And so did most PvP mains. That's why there wasn't even a queue during prime time on the weekend for the last two days of the "test". I'd rather never see vengeance mode again in any capacity. And if it becomes mandatory, my days of playing ESO are over.
However, this might not be a bad idea. Then ZOS can see first hand how fast people get bored with it and quit playing vengeance mode. The PvP mains won't stick around for it, and the PvE crowd won't ever play any version of PvP long term.
At primetime Vengeance was pop locked and there was queue even the last two days and considering Vengeance as failed and dead when it is not full and has no queue is double standard when Vengeance has multiple times the capacity of other campaigns replacing all four of them and even at primetime the population was rarely enaugh to fill a second campaign.
When Vengeance is only campaign and you can not switch to other campaign when it is full having a queue is also not wanted.
ZOS claimed before they had removed population cap not expecting that anyone would reach cap.2 -
Einstein_✭✭✭✭only because there where high player numbers in cyrodil doesnt mean it was acually liked by the PvP community.
vengence was played for the following reaons:
- verry high AP rewards
- something new that most checked out at least, but most got bored pretty quick
- Since it was almost purely about numbers and not "pvp skill" everybody had the feeling to be on the same lvl, so naturally it attracted a lot of ppl that are: let's called it...... "not pvp experienced"
i am sure that 95%+ of the actual pvp community didn't like it !!!1 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭✭✭
✭JustLovely wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »JustLovely wrote: »I hated vengence mode. And so did most PvP mains. That's why there wasn't even a queue during prime time on the weekend for the last two days of the "test". I'd rather never see vengeance mode again in any capacity. And if it becomes mandatory, my days of playing ESO are over.
However, this might not be a bad idea. Then ZOS can see first hand how fast people get bored with it and quit playing vengeance mode. The PvP mains won't stick around for it, and the PvE crowd won't ever play any version of PvP long term.
"I didnt like vengeance, therefore the majority didn't" Please, vengeance saw 3x the full pop lock for multiple days straight with no performance issues. Greyhost barely sustains pop lock a few days a week with catastrophic performance issues.
Best case scenario is zos has GH and vengeance, and requires new players to only play in vengeance until they hit a certain cp to be able to try GH. Old players can choose whether they want proc soup or a "dumbed down" pvp experience. With a running vengeance server they can test as they please and continue to work on what is enabled. Eventually vengeance would ideally have all the normal systems in place, but reworked for performance.
I'm not basing my statement on only my opinion. I run in a guild raid daily for almost 8 years now. Nobody in the guild liked vengeance. Most people in other PvP guilds I've spoken to also did not like vengeance mode in any way. It was horribly bad and boring.
Your mischaracterization of my comment is inaccurate and inappropriate.
Additionally, there is virtually zero chance ZOS will support 2 entirely different game modes for PvP going forward. They will pick the one they see fit, and it will probably be the end of the original version of PvP us PvP mains log in to play.
Ok, well I am in several raid guilds and they all said the opposite....... using anecdotal evidence as fact or statistics is silly.
The only evidence we have is zos claims we achieved 3x the cap and with a 200-300 player que on top of that. All attempts at getting zos to release the actual cap value have been shot down or removed which sucks for us making any comparisons. Judging by the abismal decline of MyM event participation it is safe to say there is a much larger demographic open to the concept of vengeance being flushed out further.
Yeah no pvper wants template pvp, but a clean slate vengeance persisting and being added to may keep the game alive. Otherwise the next option is probably GH with an even smaller player cap.....at some point it will just be a 30man bg.We should use the insightful and awesome buttons more2 -
JustLovely✭✭✭✭✭
✭MincMincMinc wrote: »JustLovely wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »JustLovely wrote: »I hated vengence mode. And so did most PvP mains. That's why there wasn't even a queue during prime time on the weekend for the last two days of the "test". I'd rather never see vengeance mode again in any capacity. And if it becomes mandatory, my days of playing ESO are over.
However, this might not be a bad idea. Then ZOS can see first hand how fast people get bored with it and quit playing vengeance mode. The PvP mains won't stick around for it, and the PvE crowd won't ever play any version of PvP long term.
"I didnt like vengeance, therefore the majority didn't" Please, vengeance saw 3x the full pop lock for multiple days straight with no performance issues. Greyhost barely sustains pop lock a few days a week with catastrophic performance issues.
Best case scenario is zos has GH and vengeance, and requires new players to only play in vengeance until they hit a certain cp to be able to try GH. Old players can choose whether they want proc soup or a "dumbed down" pvp experience. With a running vengeance server they can test as they please and continue to work on what is enabled. Eventually vengeance would ideally have all the normal systems in place, but reworked for performance.
I'm not basing my statement on only my opinion. I run in a guild raid daily for almost 8 years now. Nobody in the guild liked vengeance. Most people in other PvP guilds I've spoken to also did not like vengeance mode in any way. It was horribly bad and boring.
Your mischaracterization of my comment is inaccurate and inappropriate.
Additionally, there is virtually zero chance ZOS will support 2 entirely different game modes for PvP going forward. They will pick the one they see fit, and it will probably be the end of the original version of PvP us PvP mains log in to play.
Ok, well I am in several raid guilds and they all said the opposite....... using anecdotal evidence as fact or statistics is silly.
The only evidence we have is zos claims we achieved 3x the cap and with a 200-300 player que on top of that. All attempts at getting zos to release the actual cap value have been shot down or removed which sucks for us making any comparisons. Judging by the abismal decline of MyM event participation it is safe to say there is a much larger demographic open to the concept of vengeance being flushed out further.
Yeah no pvper wants template pvp, but a clean slate vengeance persisting and being added to may keep the game alive. Otherwise the next option is probably GH with an even smaller player cap.....at some point it will just be a 30man bg.
Ok, now you're claiming to be in 3 PvP guilds. I've seen other posts from you claiming you don't play in GH anymore. So which is it?
Then you go on to use anecdotal evidence about MYM populations and say there was a 200-300 player que on the last couple days of the "test" when I know first hand that there was not a queue on PC NA for the last couple days of the "test". There was no queue at all the last couple days of the test on PC NA. I was there. You must be playing on console or PC EU because your description of what was happening is absolutely not what was happening on PC NA.
Edited by JustLovely on April 10, 2025 5:08PM1 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭✭✭
✭JustLovely wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »JustLovely wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »JustLovely wrote: »I hated vengence mode. And so did most PvP mains. That's why there wasn't even a queue during prime time on the weekend for the last two days of the "test". I'd rather never see vengeance mode again in any capacity. And if it becomes mandatory, my days of playing ESO are over.
However, this might not be a bad idea. Then ZOS can see first hand how fast people get bored with it and quit playing vengeance mode. The PvP mains won't stick around for it, and the PvE crowd won't ever play any version of PvP long term.
"I didnt like vengeance, therefore the majority didn't" Please, vengeance saw 3x the full pop lock for multiple days straight with no performance issues. Greyhost barely sustains pop lock a few days a week with catastrophic performance issues.
Best case scenario is zos has GH and vengeance, and requires new players to only play in vengeance until they hit a certain cp to be able to try GH. Old players can choose whether they want proc soup or a "dumbed down" pvp experience. With a running vengeance server they can test as they please and continue to work on what is enabled. Eventually vengeance would ideally have all the normal systems in place, but reworked for performance.
I'm not basing my statement on only my opinion. I run in a guild raid daily for almost 8 years now. Nobody in the guild liked vengeance. Most people in other PvP guilds I've spoken to also did not like vengeance mode in any way. It was horribly bad and boring.
Your mischaracterization of my comment is inaccurate and inappropriate.
Additionally, there is virtually zero chance ZOS will support 2 entirely different game modes for PvP going forward. They will pick the one they see fit, and it will probably be the end of the original version of PvP us PvP mains log in to play.
Ok, well I am in several raid guilds and they all said the opposite....... using anecdotal evidence as fact or statistics is silly.
The only evidence we have is zos claims we achieved 3x the cap and with a 200-300 player que on top of that. All attempts at getting zos to release the actual cap value have been shot down or removed which sucks for us making any comparisons. Judging by the abismal decline of MyM event participation it is safe to say there is a much larger demographic open to the concept of vengeance being flushed out further.
Yeah no pvper wants template pvp, but a clean slate vengeance persisting and being added to may keep the game alive. Otherwise the next option is probably GH with an even smaller player cap.....at some point it will just be a 30man bg.
Ok, now you're claiming to be in 3 PvP guilds. I've seen other posts from you claiming you don't play in GH anymore. So which is it?
Then you go on to use anecdotal evidence about MYM populations and say there was a 200-300 player que on the last couple days of the "test" when I know first hand that there was not a queue on PC NA for the last couple days of the "test". There was no queue at all the last couple days of the test on PC NA. I was there. You must be playing on console or PC EU because your description of what was happening is absolutely not what was happening on PC NA.
No I was pointing out how anecdotal evidence is useless. You cant prove or disprove it and any argument is pointless.
Not sure what you mean but when I played on PCNA during the tests I sat through a 200+ player que during primetime. Plenty of streams to comb through if you want to find que numbers.
Again the only fact is they 3x the population and actually brought new players in to experience pvp. For the longevity of the game that is the most important fact.We should use the insightful and awesome buttons more3 -
DUTCH_REAPER✭✭✭✭✭
✭Vengeance was absolutely epic! So much fun!
absolutely best part about Vengeance was NO BROKEN/EXPLOITABLE sets could be used! it was beautiful.
Agree with everything you said Foo. New guildies wont even go into a camp to pvp now in its present state.0 -
DUTCH_REAPER✭✭✭✭✭
✭only because there where high player numbers in cyrodil doesnt mean it was acually liked by the PvP community.
vengence was played for the following reaons:
- verry high AP rewards
- something new that most checked out at least, but most got bored pretty quick
- Since it was almost purely about numbers and not "pvp skill" everybody had the feeling to be on the same lvl, so naturally it attracted a lot of ppl that are: let's called it...... "not pvp experienced"
i am sure that 95%+ of the actual pvp community didn't like it !!!
I am willing to bet people who couldn't use their little cheat engine or broken/exploits didn't like it. And ballgroups hated it for sure due to lack of shield/heal overlap.Edited by DUTCH_REAPER on April 10, 2025 11:50PM5 -
DUTCH_REAPER✭✭✭✭✭
✭JustLovely wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »JustLovely wrote: »I hated vengence mode. And so did most PvP mains. That's why there wasn't even a queue during prime time on the weekend for the last two days of the "test". I'd rather never see vengeance mode again in any capacity. And if it becomes mandatory, my days of playing ESO are over.
However, this might not be a bad idea. Then ZOS can see first hand how fast people get bored with it and quit playing vengeance mode. The PvP mains won't stick around for it, and the PvE crowd won't ever play any version of PvP long term.
"I didnt like vengeance, therefore the majority didn't" Please, vengeance saw 3x the full pop lock for multiple days straight with no performance issues. Greyhost barely sustains pop lock a few days a week with catastrophic performance issues.
Best case scenario is zos has GH and vengeance, and requires new players to only play in vengeance until they hit a certain cp to be able to try GH. Old players can choose whether they want proc soup or a "dumbed down" pvp experience. With a running vengeance server they can test as they please and continue to work on what is enabled. Eventually vengeance would ideally have all the normal systems in place, but reworked for performance.
I'm not basing my statement on only my opinion. I run in a guild raid daily for almost 8 years now. Nobody in the guild liked vengeance. Most people in other PvP guilds I've spoken to also did not like vengeance mode in any way. It was horribly bad and boring.
Your mischaracterization of my comment is inaccurate and inappropriate.
Additionally, there is virtually zero chance ZOS will support 2 entirely different game modes for PvP going forward. They will pick the one they see fit, and it will probably be the end of the original version of PvP us PvP mains log in to play.
Ahhh there it is. A ball group "raid guild" for pvp. Yeah of course none of you liked it. You couldn't go shield/heal spamming could you?
Been playing since beta, Vengeance was the best pvp mass player event since launch. And if you were there in 2014 and saw it, you would be saying the same thing.3 -
reazea✭✭✭✭✭
✭MincMincMinc wrote: »JustLovely wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »JustLovely wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »JustLovely wrote: »I hated vengence mode. And so did most PvP mains. That's why there wasn't even a queue during prime time on the weekend for the last two days of the "test". I'd rather never see vengeance mode again in any capacity. And if it becomes mandatory, my days of playing ESO are over.
However, this might not be a bad idea. Then ZOS can see first hand how fast people get bored with it and quit playing vengeance mode. The PvP mains won't stick around for it, and the PvE crowd won't ever play any version of PvP long term.
"I didnt like vengeance, therefore the majority didn't" Please, vengeance saw 3x the full pop lock for multiple days straight with no performance issues. Greyhost barely sustains pop lock a few days a week with catastrophic performance issues.
Best case scenario is zos has GH and vengeance, and requires new players to only play in vengeance until they hit a certain cp to be able to try GH. Old players can choose whether they want proc soup or a "dumbed down" pvp experience. With a running vengeance server they can test as they please and continue to work on what is enabled. Eventually vengeance would ideally have all the normal systems in place, but reworked for performance.
I'm not basing my statement on only my opinion. I run in a guild raid daily for almost 8 years now. Nobody in the guild liked vengeance. Most people in other PvP guilds I've spoken to also did not like vengeance mode in any way. It was horribly bad and boring.
Your mischaracterization of my comment is inaccurate and inappropriate.
Additionally, there is virtually zero chance ZOS will support 2 entirely different game modes for PvP going forward. They will pick the one they see fit, and it will probably be the end of the original version of PvP us PvP mains log in to play.
Ok, well I am in several raid guilds and they all said the opposite....... using anecdotal evidence as fact or statistics is silly.
The only evidence we have is zos claims we achieved 3x the cap and with a 200-300 player que on top of that. All attempts at getting zos to release the actual cap value have been shot down or removed which sucks for us making any comparisons. Judging by the abismal decline of MyM event participation it is safe to say there is a much larger demographic open to the concept of vengeance being flushed out further.
Yeah no pvper wants template pvp, but a clean slate vengeance persisting and being added to may keep the game alive. Otherwise the next option is probably GH with an even smaller player cap.....at some point it will just be a 30man bg.
Ok, now you're claiming to be in 3 PvP guilds. I've seen other posts from you claiming you don't play in GH anymore. So which is it?
Then you go on to use anecdotal evidence about MYM populations and say there was a 200-300 player que on the last couple days of the "test" when I know first hand that there was not a queue on PC NA for the last couple days of the "test". There was no queue at all the last couple days of the test on PC NA. I was there. You must be playing on console or PC EU because your description of what was happening is absolutely not what was happening on PC NA.
No I was pointing out how anecdotal evidence is useless. You cant prove or disprove it and any argument is pointless.
Not sure what you mean but when I played on PCNA during the tests I sat through a 200+ player que during primetime. Plenty of streams to comb through if you want to find que numbers.
Again the only fact is they 3x the population and actually brought new players in to experience pvp. For the longevity of the game that is the most important fact.
There was no queue the last two days of the vengeance test on PC NA. And the population was higher than the massively reduced cap of 10% the original cap, but there still weren't even half the original cap of 600/faction. This water is getting awfully muddy with misinformation and misdirection. The future of ESO looks really grim at this point, and not just for PvP.1 -
Kungfu✭✭✭✭How about we get back to the original purpose of this?
I understand JustLovely's concern... I do. I ran in ball groups, in raid groups, and zerg surfed. I get why all of them probably have the opinions they do.
And I think it's a moot point whether two different forms of Cyro would exist or not. See @MincMincMinc 's post about consolidating Cyrodiil. There are some great points made in that one.
ALL THIS THREAD is intended to do is to request a copy of the most current Vengeance be made available for those of us who DO prefer that playstyle.
Again tonight, I've got two in our guild who will not be logging in for regular PVE because they only want to PVP and the current options are not viable for them. They are playing other games today.
That's a warning sign for EVERYONE. Not just ZOS. Even ball groups will agree that an empty Cyrodiil is boring.
Surely it's not THAT big of an ask to keep a copy of Vengeance active. Hell, test it on the fly! Make a change whenever you want and roll it back.
Or don't! WHATEVER WORKS. Just asking to play the version of the game that gave many of us joy.4 -
Pepegrillos✭✭✭✭✭Vengeance in any capacity would be better for the overall health of ESO's PvP than anything we have now.7
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reazea✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pepegrillos wrote: »Vengeance in any capacity would be better for the overall health of ESO's PvP than anything we have now.
Couldn't disagree more. Vengeance mode is a totally different game. A mobile phone has enough computing power to play vengeance mode. It's that dumbed down from the Cyrodiil that we've been playing since release.0 -
Kungfu✭✭✭✭Arguing now over whether people liked Vengeance or not is futile. They have the data and they have the responses. Brian said himself in the stream today that it was very well liked and that he saw (as did most of us who are honest about it) zone chat exploding with how much people liked it.
Thus, arguing against it and trying to generate a false narrative to achieve the goal of further forcing players to play this game the way a specific few want to play it only serves, in the long run, to degrade population.
Having both available theoretically means the people who have to rely on the current Gray Host's crutches to win can still go do so - they'd just have others like them to go up against. From what I see: that's the real argument people are making against this idea. These folks just want to have their special builds and weak opponents all over to stomp on without regard for the longevity of the game.
I can build a tower *** geologist or a block tank or even run a ball group. I've done them all before. Hell, I was burning out on ball group runs by the time CBB & Drac were on the field. This has nothing to do with any of that though.
THIS request is intended to keep the average player's pvp momentum going.
To keep players logging in for the fun they had.
And my OP is laying out the experience and warning signs I'm seeing today that demonstrate the game population will continue to decrease until the next test is available. Thus, providing the OPTION of Vengeance for those that want it in the meantime would serve to benefit the greater good of ALL ESO as getting people to log in is the first step. And a great way to do that for people who tasted Vengeance and liked it is... to provide it.Edited by Kungfu on April 11, 2025 12:30AM6 -
Pepegrillos✭✭✭✭✭Pepegrillos wrote: »Vengeance in any capacity would be better for the overall health of ESO's PvP than anything we have now.
Couldn't disagree more. Vengeance mode is a totally different game. A mobile phone has enough computing power to play vengeance mode. It's that dumbed down from the Cyrodiil that we've been playing since release.
Current Cyrodiil doesn't work and they have shown, over a decade, that they can't fix it. On top of that there are no new players coming in and its regulars aren't getting any younger. If anything, we need a PvP mode that gets new players (or old players that have avoided PvP) a foot in the door. Vengeance plays that role.5 -
aetherix8✭✭✭I participated in the test because ZOS needed players en masse, and because there’s nothing better for me to do now that proclag is the only option. That said, I wouldn’t stick around for Vengeance. No-proc raven was my piece of cake (half-baked, but a cake nonetheless), Vengeance felt like raw material for a cake, not good enough. And too. damn. slow.
I will be probably joining in for more testing but Vengeance is definitely not what I’m waiting for and find fun to play.
My point is, please stop asking for Vengeance being a permament game mode. It was a setting designed to test performance, and lacking many aspects that are necessary to make it engaging in the long term. Please keep asking ZOS to keep up the good work and roll out more tests, because this way we might yet see something much better than Vengeance.
Edit: add 2nd paragraphEdited by aetherix8 on April 12, 2025 4:23PMPC EU - V4hn11 -
Deimus✭✭✭✭I've played on and off since beta almost exclusively PvP, and I pretty much dropped Cyro for IC and the new battlegrounds before the test even happened. Vengeance while needing a bit more if it was a campaign option I'd pick it over the current GH any day.
After Vengeance refreshed the memory of how much fun Cyrodiil used to be, I see zero reason to play current Cyro until the next test or they implement some long requested changes like removing heal/shield stacking.Grave Robber - Robbed
Harmony - Shattered
Stalking Blastbones - Sacrificed
Corpse Consumers - Buried8