Subclassing Is a Huge Step Forward — Let’s Go Even Further

QB1 · April 2025

With the news of subclassing being added to ESO, I have to admit that I’m thrilled. This is exactly the kind of evolution the game needs, imo. Huge props to ZOS for taking this step. Subclassing opens up so many creative possibilities and addresses a long-standing community desire for more customization within the existing class framework. Scribing and skill styling have also added a ton of build customization as well.

That said, I’d love to see this as a stepping stone toward an entirely classless system in the future.

Here’s why:

Creative Freedom: A classless system would allow players to fully express their playstyle without being locked into a single class identity. The game already has a strong foundation of skill lines that can be mixed and matched, expanding that further only enhances the sandbox feel.

Ease of Future Content: Instead of ZOS having to design and balance entire new classes (which is a massive lift), a classless system would make it easier to add new single skill lines without breaking the game.

Balance Opportunities: Instead of balancing whole classes, the devs could focus on tweaking individual skill lines, passives, and synergies, making the meta more dynamic and shifting.

I understand the move to a full classless system would be a huge change and likely not feasible overnight, but subclassing is a fantastic step in the right direction. It shows that ZOS is listening and willing to evolve the game systems.

ESO has the best combat system in any MMO, and giving players more freedom to explore it their way only strengthens that.

Curious what others think. Would you support the game moving toward a classless system in the future?

Gilvoth · April 2025

i would Love this!
Excellent idea.

Parasaurolophus · April 2025

Come on. Do you really not see what a disaster this could turn into? How badly power creep will spiral out of control? How much nerf potential this opens up? Sure, there’ll be that “new toy” effect for a while. But then what?

SeaGtGruff · April 2025

I'm not in favor of doing away with classes. Even though I personally tend to play my characters a certain way regardless of their class, there are a lot of players who take class identity very seriously. If only for role-playing purposes, I think it's in the best interests of the game to keep classes.

However, I do think that adding the ability to create sub-classes is a good idea, because it will open up more possibilities in the ways that players can build and express their characters.

NoSoup · April 2025

Haha I have less than 1% belief this will work out well. The most obvious issue is around balancing and catering to the players that want to mix and match skills and the players that want to stick to true class setups. Certain skill lines will have to be nerfed to the ground to allow them to be "transferred" to make them "ok" to use, which will destroy the builds that want to remain "authentic".

The only way this could possibly work is if they introduce penalty passives that only apply when using those class skills outside of their default skill.

QB1 · April 2025

Gilvoth wrote: »

i would Love this!
Excellent idea.

Glad to hear I’m not the only one excited by the potential here. Subclassing really feels like a natural progression for the game, and I hope ZOS continues pushing in this direction.

QB1 · April 2025

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Come on. Do you really not see what a disaster this could turn into? How badly power creep will spiral out of control? How much nerf potential this opens up? Sure, there’ll be that “new toy” effect for a while. But then what?

Totally valid concerns, and I don't think you're wrong to be cautious. Power creep is always a threat when new systems are introduced. That said, I actually think subclassing — and eventually a classless system — could give ZOS more control, not less. By shifting the focus to individual skill lines, they could balance much more precisely without having to worry about class identity getting in the way.

Of course, that would only work if they’re committed to ongoing tuning. But personally, I’d rather see a more dynamic meta that evolves regularly than a static one held back by class silos. Appreciate your input!

QB1 · April 2025

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I'm not in favor of doing away with classes. Even though I personally tend to play my characters a certain way regardless of their class, there are a lot of players who take class identity very seriously. If only for role-playing purposes, I think it's in the best interests of the game to keep classes.

However, I do think that adding the ability to create sub-classes is a good idea, because it will open up more possibilities in the ways that players can build and express their characters.

I know class identity matters to a lot of players, and I respect that even though it’s not a major part of the game for me personally. In fact, I really don't like it because most builds tend to be pretty similar. And a lot of the people who are talking about class identity being gone have their skill bars full of weapon skills, fighters guild skills, scribing skills, psjic skills, etc.

However, overall character identity does matter to me, and I think a classless system is the best of both worlds. It doesn’t have to mean losing the themes and aesthetics people enjoy about their class, those could still exist as starting templates, and players can still choose but giving players total control over how their characters function mechanically is what excites me most. You can still be a pure templar or whatever class you want if you really deeply care about that. Or you can mix and match and let your character learn whatever school of magic they want or that fits their story.

For now though, subclassing is a great step in that direction, and I’m happy to support it as a middle ground for now. But my hope is that it opens the door to even more freedom down the line.

QB1 · April 2025

NoSoup wrote: »

Haha I have less than 1% belief this will work out well. The most obvious issue is around balancing and catering to the players that want to mix and match skills and the players that want to stick to true class setups. Certain skill lines will have to be nerfed to the ground to allow them to be "transferred" to make them "ok" to use, which will destroy the builds that want to remain "authentic".

The only way this could possibly work is if they introduce penalty passives that only apply when using those class skills outside of their default skill.

I think your idea about penalty passives is actually a pretty clever way to approach it if we ever did move to a classless system.

That said, I’d personally prefer if ZOS focused on tuning and balancing the individual skill lines themselves rather than layering on penalties. A well-maintained system of buffs, reworks, and synergy tweaks could go a long way toward keeping things fair without limiting creativity.

Still, I appreciate you throwing that idea out there. It’s an interesting angle on how we could open things up without breaking the game.

Militan1404 · April 2025

In 10 years they couldnt balance the classes, then how could they balance it when they are all mixed?
Bet now templar skills would be nerfed becouse they are op on a nightblade or DK skills becouse they are op on a sorc. And would classes still be valuable as stand alone or do you have to have sub-classes now to be good? And would they still bother to balance each class individual or is this just an excuse to dont spend time on balance, we allready had minimal balance changes the last couple of updates. And do i have to use wierd tentacles, and bugs coming of the ground to be viable on another class when thats was not i visioned it when i made it. And is it even lore friendly? Not an lore expert but templar necromancer sounds wierd.

QB1 · April 2025

Militan1404 wrote: »

In 10 years they couldnt balance the classes, then how could they balance it when they are all mixed?
Bet now templar skills would be nerfed becouse they are op on a nightblade or DK skills becouse they are op on a sorc. And would classes still be valuable as stand alone or do you have to have sub-classes now to be good? And would they still bother to balance each class individual or is this just an excuse to dont spend time on balance, we allready had minimal balance changes the last couple of updates. And do i have to use wierd tentacles, and bugs coming of the ground to be viable on another class when thats was not i visioned it when i made it. And is it even lore friendly? Not an lore expert but templar necromancer sounds wierd.

Thanks for the reply. Balance has always been tough in ESO, and mixing class skills definitely risks making that even more complicated. I don’t think subclassing or a classless system should mean abandoning balance altogether, though. Ideally, this system would give ZOS more granular control. Instead of balancing entire classes, they could tweak specific skill lines or combos more precisely.

As for the class identity and visuals, I agree, not everyone wants tentacles and bugs in their build. I'm one of those people lol I don't run either on my warden or arcanist and, obviously, that puts me at a disadvantage. I don't really care, though. I don't have to run best in slot everything to have fun. In fact, I have a lot less fun when I do that. The good news, now, however, is that we have other options thanks to subclassing.

And lore wise? ESO has always been a little loose with that, especially compared to single player Elder Scrolls games. Personally, I think it’s possible to justify more freedom within the lore.

But I appreciate your reply and you laying out these points! Just as important to talk about the downsides as well as the upside.

Militan1404 · April 2025

QB1 wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

In 10 years they couldnt balance the classes, then how could they balance it when they are all mixed?
Bet now templar skills would be nerfed becouse they are op on a nightblade or DK skills becouse they are op on a sorc. And would classes still be valuable as stand alone or do you have to have sub-classes now to be good? And would they still bother to balance each class individual or is this just an excuse to dont spend time on balance, we allready had minimal balance changes the last couple of updates. And do i have to use wierd tentacles, and bugs coming of the ground to be viable on another class when thats was not i visioned it when i made it. And is it even lore friendly? Not an lore expert but templar necromancer sounds wierd.

Thanks for the reply. Balance has always been tough in ESO, and mixing class skills definitely risks making that even more complicated. I don’t think subclassing or a classless system should mean abandoning balance altogether, though. Ideally, this system would give ZOS more granular control. Instead of balancing entire classes, they could tweak specific skill lines or combos more precisely.

As for the class identity and visuals, I agree, not everyone wants tentacles and bugs in their build. I'm one of those people lol I don't run either on my warden or arcanist and, obviously, that puts me at a disadvantage. I don't really care, though. I don't have to run best in slot everything to have fun. In fact, I have a lot less fun when I do that. The good news, now, however, is that we have other options thanks to subclassing.

And lore wise? ESO has always been a little loose with that, especially compared to single player Elder Scrolls games. Personally, I think it’s possible to justify more freedom within the lore.

But I appreciate your reply and you laying out these points! Just as important to talk about the downsides as well as the upside.

Might have come off quite pessimistic tho, and might be just that. But i am all for beeing proven wrong here and for all i know it might be the best thing ever happened to eso hope i get positively suprised. Just concerned it would be kind of like a continuation of the hybridization that in my opinion was not good at all for the game.

Vrienda · April 2025

Yes please. Elder Scrolls has always been classless. Or at least build your own class.

I've been stuck as a dragon knight for 11 years now and I hate the class. Let me go full Arcanist.

Ragnarok0130 · April 2025

QB1 wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

In 10 years they couldnt balance the classes, then how could they balance it when they are all mixed?
Bet now templar skills would be nerfed becouse they are op on a nightblade or DK skills becouse they are op on a sorc. And would classes still be valuable as stand alone or do you have to have sub-classes now to be good? And would they still bother to balance each class individual or is this just an excuse to dont spend time on balance, we allready had minimal balance changes the last couple of updates. And do i have to use wierd tentacles, and bugs coming of the ground to be viable on another class when thats was not i visioned it when i made it. And is it even lore friendly? Not an lore expert but templar necromancer sounds wierd.

Thanks for the reply. Balance has always been tough in ESO, and mixing class skills definitely risks making that even more complicated. .

I've been here since 2014's closed beta - balance hasn't been "tough" - ZoS has been wholly unable to balance ESO's combat the entire time. Now we're expected to believe that ZoS will magically be able to balance every conceivable permutation of class, guild, and weapon skills when they were unable to balance those same skills when they were limited to specific classes? That isn't optimism it's naivete. I foresee an incoming nerf hammer post subclass patch that will make us think U35 was a nice day at the park.

QB1 · April 2025

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

In 10 years they couldnt balance the classes, then how could they balance it when they are all mixed?
Bet now templar skills would be nerfed becouse they are op on a nightblade or DK skills becouse they are op on a sorc. And would classes still be valuable as stand alone or do you have to have sub-classes now to be good? And would they still bother to balance each class individual or is this just an excuse to dont spend time on balance, we allready had minimal balance changes the last couple of updates. And do i have to use wierd tentacles, and bugs coming of the ground to be viable on another class when thats was not i visioned it when i made it. And is it even lore friendly? Not an lore expert but templar necromancer sounds wierd.

Thanks for the reply. Balance has always been tough in ESO, and mixing class skills definitely risks making that even more complicated. .

I've been here since 2014's closed beta - balance hasn't been "tough" - ZoS has been wholly unable to balance ESO's combat the entire time. Now we're expected to believe that ZoS will magically be able to balance every conceivable permutation of class, guild, and weapon skills when they were unable to balance those same skills when they were limited to specific classes? That isn't optimism it's naivete. I foresee an incoming nerf hammer post subclass patch that will make us think U35 was a nice day at the park.

Fair enough. You're not wrong that balance has often felt like an uphill battle. I guess for me, moving to a classless system isn’t so much about thinking ZOS will get it perfect, it’s more about the potential to approach balance in a more modular, skill-based way if they’re willing to invest in doing it right. Will it be hard? Absolutely. Could it flop? Sure. But I’d rather see the game try to evolve than stay static out of fear.

But healthy skepticism is totally valid. At the very least, the devs would need to communicate clearly and often through all of this.

QB1 · April 2025

Militan1404 wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

In 10 years they couldnt balance the classes, then how could they balance it when they are all mixed?
Bet now templar skills would be nerfed becouse they are op on a nightblade or DK skills becouse they are op on a sorc. And would classes still be valuable as stand alone or do you have to have sub-classes now to be good? And would they still bother to balance each class individual or is this just an excuse to dont spend time on balance, we allready had minimal balance changes the last couple of updates. And do i have to use wierd tentacles, and bugs coming of the ground to be viable on another class when thats was not i visioned it when i made it. And is it even lore friendly? Not an lore expert but templar necromancer sounds wierd.

Thanks for the reply. Balance has always been tough in ESO, and mixing class skills definitely risks making that even more complicated. I don’t think subclassing or a classless system should mean abandoning balance altogether, though. Ideally, this system would give ZOS more granular control. Instead of balancing entire classes, they could tweak specific skill lines or combos more precisely.

As for the class identity and visuals, I agree, not everyone wants tentacles and bugs in their build. I'm one of those people lol I don't run either on my warden or arcanist and, obviously, that puts me at a disadvantage. I don't really care, though. I don't have to run best in slot everything to have fun. In fact, I have a lot less fun when I do that. The good news, now, however, is that we have other options thanks to subclassing.

And lore wise? ESO has always been a little loose with that, especially compared to single player Elder Scrolls games. Personally, I think it’s possible to justify more freedom within the lore.

But I appreciate your reply and you laying out these points! Just as important to talk about the downsides as well as the upside.

Might have come off quite pessimistic tho, and might be just that. But i am all for beeing proven wrong here and for all i know it might be the best thing ever happened to eso hope i get positively suprised. Just concerned it would be kind of like a continuation of the hybridization that in my opinion was not good at all for the game.

Totally get where you’re coming from — and I actually really appreciate you being honest about your concerns and being open to the possibility that it could turn out better than expected. That kind of conversation is what keeps the feedback meaningful.

I also felt mixed about hybridization at first. It definitely shook up the feel of the game and made some builds feel less unique. But at the same time, it opened the door for a lot of players to play the way they wanted without feeling completely locked out of certain content. I’m hoping subclassing can strike a better balance — more freedom without erasing identity. If ZOS can find a way to support both “purist” class builds and creative mixed ones, that’d be the sweet spot.

QB1 · April 2025

Vrienda wrote: »

Yes please. Elder Scrolls has always been classless. Or at least build your own class.

I've been stuck as a dragon knight for 11 years now and I hate the class. Let me go full Arcanist.

100% agree. One of the things that’s always made Elder Scrolls special is the freedom to shape your own character, not be boxed in by rigid class systems. ESO has held onto some of that, but subclassing (and hopefully more down the line) could finally bring it closer to that classic TES “build your own hero” vibe.

Thysbe · April 2025

QB1 wrote: »

more freedom without erasing identity.

Well it is given that Class identitiy is gone with this move - if other classes can use Impale and Shadow Cloak whats still special about a NB? Nothing
If other classes have the Neon-beam and the Tentacles whats left of an arcanist? Nothing.

Did you ever embrace a class with its characteristics and playstyle? I did with the NB for 10 years.

Besides the passives, classes are like yesterdays news and though I heavily disagree with this move (like hybridization) it would make more sense to abdon classes for good, since they serve no purpose and all of what remains is a levelling template with some skills until you are 50. It´s like you see their vision but they are only following it halfway through for whatever reason.

The way its done it a move with massive implications. Why leave the crutch of passives and limitations to keeping at least 1 skill line and not beeing allowed to swap in two others? Just overcomplicating things and won´t make much difference in the upcoming balancing desaster.

xylena_lazarow · April 2025

QB1 wrote: »

Glad to hear I’m not the only one excited by the potential here. Subclassing really feels like a natural progression for the game, and I hope ZOS continues pushing in this direction.

Hell yeah. Class identity died in like 2015 with the push for cp, overpowered generics, and metas defined by sets.

MJallday · April 2025

Sorcs or plars with the arc beam?

Sign me up

ForumBully · April 2025

Have I always wanted beam on a sorc? Yes. Have I always wanted hardened ward on just about every attempted non sorc ranged build? Yes. Have I wanted DK Shalks? Yes. Can I keep asking myself questions and then answering them? Yes I can.

Still, it's fun to come back to a game you left years back and see the same complaints about broken sets and the same worries about disrupting a "balance" that has never ever ever existed in the game ever.

Stx · April 2025

I think it’s cool to see people saying things like oh Sorc shields are OP and cloak is OP and DKs are too tanky and just knowing that you can’t make some perfect build that has everything at once. Not only can you not have every OP ability at once, but choosing multiple skills lines with survival abilities will leave you very far behind someone who built into multiple damage skill lines. Not to mention set bonuses support different types of abilities and so do CP. I think the build diversity at least in PvP is going to be crazy and people don’t realize it yet.

wolfie1.0. · April 2025

Honestly, I would have preferred that subclasses be branches of existing classes rather than using skills from other classes.

Using class lines from other classes seems like a shortcut approach and it's going to likely be a mess. And disappointment as skills and passives get nuked and mashed into being the exact same for each class.

It also devalues having multiple characters.

QB1 · April 2025

Thysbe wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

more freedom without erasing identity.

Well it is given that Class identitiy is gone with this move - if other classes can use Impale and Shadow Cloak whats still special about a NB? Nothing
If other classes have the Neon-beam and the Tentacles whats left of an arcanist? Nothing.

Did you ever embrace a class with its characteristics and playstyle? I did with the NB for 10 years.

Besides the passives, classes are like yesterdays news and though I heavily disagree with this move (like hybridization) it would make more sense to abdon classes for good, since they serve no purpose and all of what remains is a levelling template with some skills until you are 50. It´s like you see their vision but they are only following it halfway through for whatever reason.

The way its done it a move with massive implications. Why leave the crutch of passives and limitations to keeping at least 1 skill line and not beeing allowed to swap in two others? Just overcomplicating things and won´t make much difference in the upcoming balancing desaster.

I mean I get where you're coming from. If you’ve poured a decade into mastering a class like nightblade, it’s frustrating to see its uniqueness diluted. But at the same time, there are already a million nightblades running around all running the same ***. How is that special? That's why I don't really get the whole class identity thing.

If anything, you can choose to remain a pure nightblade and now you are actually going to be more special and unique than before, that's the way I see it any way.

QB1 · April 2025

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

Glad to hear I’m not the only one excited by the potential here. Subclassing really feels like a natural progression for the game, and I hope ZOS continues pushing in this direction.

Hell yeah. Class identity died in like 2015 with the push for cp, overpowered generics, and metas defined by sets.

Exactly. The ship sailed on class purity years ago, and I don’t think subclassing/going classless kills anything that wasn’t already fading. I’m glad they’re finally leaning into it.

QB1 · April 2025

ForumBully wrote: »

Have I always wanted beam on a sorc? Yes. Have I always wanted hardened ward on just about every attempted non sorc ranged build? Yes. Have I wanted DK Shalks? Yes. Can I keep asking myself questions and then answering them? Yes I can.

Still, it's fun to come back to a game you left years back and see the same complaints about broken sets and the same worries about disrupting a "balance" that has never ever ever existed in the game ever.

Right?? Sorc with the arc beam sounds wild, but honestly, I think the key thing people are missing is that just having a strong skill doesn’t guarantee a strong build. If you throw in the beam but don’t have the right passives, synergies, or set bonuses to support it, you might just end up with a flashy dud. That’s what excites me the most about all of this, the potential for wild combos with real tradeoffs. Way more interesting than being locked into one rigid class kit.

QB1 · April 2025

Stx wrote: »

I think it’s cool to see people saying things like oh Sorc shields are OP and cloak is OP and DKs are too tanky and just knowing that you can’t make some perfect build that has everything at once. Not only can you not have every OP ability at once, but choosing multiple skills lines with survival abilities will leave you very far behind someone who built into multiple damage skill lines. Not to mention set bonuses support different types of abilities and so do CP. I think the build diversity at least in PvP is going to be crazy and people don’t realize it yet.

Yup, this is exactly where I’m landing too. I think a lot of people are picturing a system where you can cherry pick the strongest skills and become unstoppable. But the reality is, the more you spread out, the more tradeoffs you make. Subclassing could lead to more interesting balance because it’s less about fixed “strong” classes and more about intentional choices with clear pros and cons.

ForumBully · April 2025

QB1 wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Have I always wanted beam on a sorc? Yes. Have I always wanted hardened ward on just about every attempted non sorc ranged build? Yes. Have I wanted DK Shalks? Yes. Can I keep asking myself questions and then answering them? Yes I can.

Still, it's fun to come back to a game you left years back and see the same complaints about broken sets and the same worries about disrupting a "balance" that has never ever ever existed in the game ever.

Right?? Sorc with the arc beam sounds wild, but honestly, I think the key thing people are missing is that just having a strong skill doesn’t guarantee a strong build. If you throw in the beam but don’t have the right passives, synergies, or set bonuses to support it, you might just end up with a flashy dud. That’s what excites me the most about all of this, the potential for wild combos with real tradeoffs. Way more interesting than being locked into one rigid class kit.

I haven't played at all in a long long time because it was nothing but broken sets in PVP...in a weird way, broken subclass combos sound so refreshing, and I'm sure we won't know them all until we run into them.
I kind of hope this change is coming just ahead of some kind of Vengeance PvP standard campaign (which I didn't hear about til it was over) and all the class combos can be experienced outside of the usual set imbalance that has plagued PvP since the dawn of Vicious Death.

QB1 · April 2025

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Honestly, I would have preferred that subclasses be branches of existing classes rather than using skills from other classes.

Using class lines from other classes seems like a shortcut approach and it's going to likely be a mess. And disappointment as skills and passives get nuked and mashed into being the exact same for each class.

It also devalues having multiple characters.

Totally get where you're coming from and I don't think your concerns are misplaced. I’ve started looking at it less as "classes borrowing from each other" and more like shifting toward schools of magic or disciplines of combat. Like, instead of asking “why can this class use that skill,” maybe the better question is “who trained them?” In that light, it’s not that everyone becomes the same, it’s that we get to mix our training paths in new ways.

And yeah, there’s definitely risk of skill/passive homogenization, but if ZOS can balance it with meaningful tradeoffs and synergy limitations, we might end up with more diversity, not less.

Pixiepumpkin · April 2025

Imagine an RPG where there are no chefs, bards, warriors, barbarians, mages, wizards, thieves, necromancers, rangers, engineers...

naaa, not having it. Classes make these games what they are.

Tolkein wrote Lord of the Rings
Dungeons and Dragons made their pen and paper table top game with classes inspired from Tolkien.
Video game RPG's classes were inspired from Dungeons & Dragons
MMORPG's classes were inspired from probably any of the above.

Classes make these games cool.
Classes offer nonverbal communication to a party of people who have never met before. Each person knows the others persons role based on their class/spec.

The players in a classless game would have no identity. No soul. Classes do more than just offer a way to play, they help paint the picture of the landscape, the environment in which that universe rests in. They tie to lore.

I am all for expressing different ideas and things to make the game more fun, but honestly the "no class" idea is just a bad one, and I don't mean to say that in a disparaging way or as an attack on your abilty to think and reason. It would be bad because so much would be lost in the process and very little gained.

THAT being said.

If we had blank templates and built a class from scratch AND a class spec was applied to it by the game "your choices make you a warrior mage", then I might be for it.

LadyGP · April 2025

I might be in the minority here but I miss class identity. Maybe it's cause I'm an older gamer (a lot of new games/systems have this sub class concept) but there is just something about a new class coming out and having to learn it that I enjoy.

Now to the point that they brought up during the stream about having your OG toon you made in 2014 and wanting to play it with other skills and stuff... I can see that.

My OG DK is by far my favorite toon. When I have to get on warden for group it just doesn't feel the same. So I can respect the change from this perspective.

I do have a fear of power creep and what not - especially in PVP. PVP is going to be absolutley brutal for people that don't min/man for a while until new builds and what not come out. The groups that theory craft are going to wipe the floor clean for a while.