So now we are getting content that needs to be done in order or other quests are spoiled?

Punches_Below_Belt · April 11

So much for that start anywhere, anytime vibe for new players.

Dragonnord · April 11

What do you mean? Further clarification of your statement would help.

Punches_Below_Belt · April 11

Do not do the prologue quest until you’ve done the Main quest and the fighters guild quest line.

Soarora · April 11

“Start anywhere” was becoming overwhelming and also was never quite accurate. There’s an order in the base game and an order in the summerset/cwc/morrowind storyline. You can do it out of order but you won’t have the best possible experience.

Dragonnord · April 11

Punches_Below_Belt wrote: »

Do not do the prologue quest until you’ve done the Main quest and the fighters guild quest line.

That's been happening since... ever? How many characters we meet in future DLCs and Chapters that had previous appearances?

***** SPOILERS BELOW *****

Cadwell
Sai Sahan
Razum-dar
Gabrielle Benele and Stibbons
The alliance kings and queen
etc.
etc.
etc.
etc.
etc..

It'd be a very long list if I continue.

So nothing has changed.

Punches_Below_Belt · April 11

In those instances next to nothing about other appearances is affected or spoiled. The prologue definitely spoils aspects of the other two quest lines.

Dragonnord · April 11

Punches_Below_Belt wrote: »

In those instances next to nothing about other appearances is affected or spoiled. The prologue definitely spoils aspects of the other two quest lines.

I don't agree with you. It just tells basic stuff, just like some DLC quests that also mention names, locations, things that happened with characters, guilds (even Fighters and Mages), etc.

Imho, nothing is spoiled.

cyclonus11 · April 11

They're flat-out advertising it as a direct sequel. I am also curious as to what happens if you do this questline first.

Syldras · April 11

cyclonus11 wrote: »

They're flat-out advertising it as a direct sequel. I am also curious as to what happens if you do this questline first.

It's a good question. There are some characters who are involved in the new story but also in some bigger storylines of the base game. They can hardly be at different places at once, so if you're just playing the new questline, what happens to them in the older questlines? Also, the dialogues are directly referring to things that happen in the base game, in a way that can't really be rewritten. Unless they'd replace that character in the new story with some other character if you haven't completed earlier quests?! That would be a lot of work, though.

Acetriad · April 11

Um... Unless you start at square one and do at least one of the 3 faction's quests, more or less in order, there has ALWAYS been spoilers.
FFS you could make a brand new character and get a port to cold harbor and get a LOT of spoilers for "previous" quests. I really don't understand your point.
Either we have recurring NPCs, and some kind of continuation of story, or we only meet brand new NPCs in every quest and nothing is connected.
If it bothers you that much that doing the quests out of order creates spoilers, then here is an absolute GENIUS idea for you: Go do the quests in order!
WOW! OMG! That solves your whole issue! And if you're unsure of the "correct" order, a Google search will provide your answers in less time that it takes to come on the forums and complain!

zaria · April 11

Punches_Below_Belt wrote: »

Do not do the prologue quest until you’ve done the Main quest and the fighters guild quest line.

I did the prologue on an alt who done the main quest line but none of the fighter or mage guild ones.
Now I done the fighter and mage guild quest lines multiple times.

Syldras · April 11

I've been curious and now logged in with one of my side characters just to check the first dialogue of the quest giver of the new prologue, because it's fastly done. And it indeed creates a logic/consistency hole: When my character walks past, that npc keeps yelling for "Guildmaster yxz!" and also talks about this guildmaster - who, in the world of my side character who has started neither main questline nor fighters guild questline of the base game, shouldn't have become guildmaster yet.

I know of course that the Daedric War story arc from Morrowind to Summerset also had an order. But a new player wouldn't come across a herald for the Summerset prologue in the starter town - while making their first steps in the game, from from the harbour to crafting area, bank or stables - who shouts about the ending of the Morrowind story.

zaria · April 11

Syldras wrote: »

I've been curious and now logged in with one of my side characters just to check the first dialogue of the quest giver of the new prologue, because it's fastly done. And it indeed creates a logic/consistency hole: When my character walks past, that npc keeps yelling for "Guildmaster yxz!" and also talks about this guildmaster - who, in the world of my side character who has started neither main questline nor fighters guild questline of the base game, shouldn't have become guildmaster yet.

I know of course that the Daedric War story arc from Morrowind to Summerset also had an order. But a new player wouldn't come across a herald for the Summerset prologue in the starter town - while making their first steps in the game, from from the harbour to crafting area, bank or stables - who shouts about the ending of the Morrowind story.

This, Doing the Elsweyr prologue Tarn talk about the correct Mane based on if your done the Reaper marsh zone quest.
More fun Divayth Fyr looks trough your achievements to find why he want to recruit you, like you dark brotherhood rank

DenverRalphy · April 12

Punches_Below_Belt wrote: »

So much for that start anywhere, anytime vibe for new players.

And it still holds true. The start anywhere premise is only in reference to new players being able to start their initial progression in any zone they wish. It's a holdover from pre one-tamriel when everyone had to start in the designated Starter Zones and work their way through tiered difficulty zones, becaues otherwise they wouldn't survive.

Start anywhere makes zero claims on continuity.

Heck, the new prologue quest dialog acts as if the player hasn't seen them in a long while and other things have supposedly occured over a significant period of time. Yet the game calendar hasn't moved forward a single day. The powers that be at ZOS development decided a long time ago that continuity is not really a priority.

ghastley · April 12

If you overdo continuity, you'd end up with a game where the experienced players could not play in the same space as the new players. Having players of differing experience levels playing together is what keeps MMOs going.

Jestir · April 12

People, me included, have been waiting for the world they have spent 10 years making to move forward and we are finally getting it

They are pushing it as the sequel that it is, they are doing it the right way and giving most players what they want

Syldras · April 12

I'm all for letting the story of Tamriel progress. But it has to be done carefully, because it will lead to chaos if old and new stories are mixed into one zone and there's no clear separation. Which seems to be the case now when my side character just needs to walk to the city gate of Davon's Watch to hear an npc shouting about things that haven't happened at that point yet for that character. For me it's not a huge problem, I'm mostly playing my main who has completed all quests already, but I don't think it would be a good experience for a new player.

Varana · April 12

Complaining about continuity now is a bit, well, late. Or rather, it's not more or less jumbled up with this quest, than it was before.
Especially since AWA has any dialogue checking for an achievement default to whatever any of your characters did.

And it's been easy to have NPCs appear in two places at once. Start a quest with, let's say, Razum-dar, get to a point in which he is disabled or says "I'll wait for you at place X", and then beam to Summerset or Elsweyr where you can do entire questlines with him while he is dutifully waiting at X.

Don't bother with stuff like that. This is not the game for concerns about continuity.

Syldras · April 12

It's true that it has been messed up for a while, but

having one character being dead in the new story to reappear alive again in the older stories is a bit of a new extreme. I know we have the same thing happening with the companion we sacrifice at the end of the main story, but that could be fixed at least be adding some dialogue how they did not die, were brought back or whatever. With a great hero and in that special situation, it's possible that, let's say, Meridia intervenes. With the event in the new prologue... probably not. Unless he's brought back again at the end of this year's story somehow. Which I'm not sure whether I'd like that, because I actually hoped the stories would become a little more serious again after several years of no one actually dying.

WhiteCoatSyndrome · April 12

Syldras wrote: »

It's true that it has been messed up for a while, but
having one character being dead in the new story to reappear alive again in the older stories is a bit of a new extreme. I know we have the same thing happening with the companion we sacrifice at the end of the main story, but that could be fixed at least be adding some dialogue how they did not die, were brought back or whatever. With a great hero and in that special situation, it's possible that, let's say, Meridia intervenes. With the event in the new prologue... probably not. Unless he's brought back again at the end of this year's story somehow. Which I'm not sure whether I'd like that, because I actually hoped the stories would become a little more serious again after several years of no one actually dying.

Personally

I’d rather they left him dead, and have been withholding kudos until I can be sure it will stick for at least the entire storyline. It raises the stakes for all quest lines going forward if the reoccurring characters aren’t guaranteed to make it through.

Given the subject matter of the Season, I also suspect they’re leading up to Vanus Galerion’s death.

Syldras · April 12

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

It's true that it has been messed up for a while, but
having one character being dead in the new story to reappear alive again in the older stories is a bit of a new extreme. I know we have the same thing happening with the companion we sacrifice at the end of the main story, but that could be fixed at least be adding some dialogue how they did not die, were brought back or whatever. With a great hero and in that special situation, it's possible that, let's say, Meridia intervenes. With the event in the new prologue... probably not. Unless he's brought back again at the end of this year's story somehow. Which I'm not sure whether I'd like that, because I actually hoped the stories would become a little more serious again after several years of no one actually dying.

Personally
I’d rather they left him dead, and have been withholding kudos until I can be sure it will stick for at least the entire storyline. It raises the stakes for all quest lines going forward if the reoccurring characters aren’t guaranteed to make it through.

Given the subject matter of the Season, I also suspect they’re leading up to Vanus Galerion’s death.

Concerning Galerion:

If we can believe the so far established lore - which could of course be incorrect, embellished or overdramatized, because our only source is an in-game book by some fictional author - we have details about how Galerion dies. At some point, Mannimarco returns as a lich and Galerion faces him in some "Northern mountains" and dies in that final battle, while also - at least that's what is believed - destroying Mannimarco (who of course did not "die", but somehow managed to escape, and took Galerion's corpse with him). It's not specified where these mountains in the North are, but it doesn't sound like a tropical island in the South of the continent.

Unless this year ends with an epilogue that takes place somewhere else in Tamriel, something like "We found out Mannimarco has returned. We need to face him in Skyrim." - But honestly, that last battle would probably look much less epic in game than it is described in lore. We won't see shaking mountains, huge armies, etc. Maybe it's better not to show it directly, because it can't meet the expectations people who know that lorebook will have about that event.

Edit: Added the last part.

WhiteCoatSyndrome · April 12

Syldras wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

It's true that it has been messed up for a while, but
having one character being dead in the new story to reappear alive again in the older stories is a bit of a new extreme. I know we have the same thing happening with the companion we sacrifice at the end of the main story, but that could be fixed at least be adding some dialogue how they did not die, were brought back or whatever. With a great hero and in that special situation, it's possible that, let's say, Meridia intervenes. With the event in the new prologue... probably not. Unless he's brought back again at the end of this year's story somehow. Which I'm not sure whether I'd like that, because I actually hoped the stories would become a little more serious again after several years of no one actually dying.

Personally
I’d rather they left him dead, and have been withholding kudos until I can be sure it will stick for at least the entire storyline. It raises the stakes for all quest lines going forward if the reoccurring characters aren’t guaranteed to make it through.

Given the subject matter of the Season, I also suspect they’re leading up to Vanus Galerion’s death.

Concerning Galerion:
If we can believe the so far established lore - which could of course be incorrect, embellished or overdramatized, because our only source is an in-game book by some fictional author - we have details about how Galerion dies. At some point, Mannimarco returns as a lich and Galerion faces him in some "Northern mountains" and dies in that final battle, while also - at least that's what is believed - destroying Mannimarco (who of course did not "die", but somehow managed to escape, and took Galerion's corpse with him). It's not specified where these mountains in the North are, but it doesn't sound like a tropical island in the South of the continent.

Unless this year ends with an epilogue that takes place somewhere else in Tamriel, something like "We found out Mannimarco has returned. We need to face him in Skyrim." - But honestly, that last battle would probably look much less epic in game than it is described in lore. We won't see shaking mountains, huge armies, etc. Maybe it's better not to show it directly, because it can't meet the expectations people who know that lorebook will have about that event.

Edit: Added the last part.

But don’t forget

the villain they mentioned in the stream wasn’t Mannimarco, and Mannimarco hasn’t ‘officially’ been released/escaped from Coldharbour yet (some PCs might have taken the route of insanity and freed him, but not everyone would have - I know I didn’t). Given the emphasis on returning characters, I’m expecting the Solstice villain to be setting up the conditions for his release/lichdom, and that’ll be the twist for this plotline.

Then next year we fight Mannimarco directly in Skyrim or something.

Arunei · April 12

I can't speak on the prologue since I haven't done it yet, but in general it's going to be next to impossible to have a sequel to anything and there not be spoilers for the story before it.

A lot of the DLC main stories refer back to things and characters from stuff that happened in previous releases. A BIG example of that is a certain character in Summerset who's also important in the base game main quest and shouldn't be around for Summerset's. But they are, and how is explained by "Things that have happened for you haven't happened for me yet".

We know time in the Elder Scrolls universe isn't linear. There's time travel, Dragon Breaks, multiple realities and universes where X or Y did or didn't happen. Mora can reach through time to pull books that don't exist presently to himself or retrieve ones that were destroyed or otherwise lost. A lack of actual continuity is kind of baked into the franchise as a whole, which does admittedly get frustrating at times when making what's supposed to be a heavy decision turns out to to be moot when the subject of the decision winds up being unaffected by it.

But as far as spoilers go? If you play out of suggested order, you're going to run across them. Being able to start anywhere and play in the order you like doesn't mean "regardless of what order you play you'll never encounter spoilers", it means story content isn't locked behind needing to own or do previous content.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · April 12

It's is a sequel to the main quest but like every other questline in the game happens at the exact same time as the main quest even that makes zero sense whatsoever.

soelslaev · April 12

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

But don’t forget

Well, first of all, his friends call him "Manny", so that might explain why he hasn't updated you on his whereabouts.

Cooperharley · April 12

Syldras · April 12

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

It's true that it has been messed up for a while, but
having one character being dead in the new story to reappear alive again in the older stories is a bit of a new extreme. I know we have the same thing happening with the companion we sacrifice at the end of the main story, but that could be fixed at least be adding some dialogue how they did not die, were brought back or whatever. With a great hero and in that special situation, it's possible that, let's say, Meridia intervenes. With the event in the new prologue... probably not. Unless he's brought back again at the end of this year's story somehow. Which I'm not sure whether I'd like that, because I actually hoped the stories would become a little more serious again after several years of no one actually dying.

Personally
I’d rather they left him dead, and have been withholding kudos until I can be sure it will stick for at least the entire storyline. It raises the stakes for all quest lines going forward if the reoccurring characters aren’t guaranteed to make it through.

Given the subject matter of the Season, I also suspect they’re leading up to Vanus Galerion’s death.

Concerning Galerion:
If we can believe the so far established lore - which could of course be incorrect, embellished or overdramatized, because our only source is an in-game book by some fictional author - we have details about how Galerion dies. At some point, Mannimarco returns as a lich and Galerion faces him in some "Northern mountains" and dies in that final battle, while also - at least that's what is believed - destroying Mannimarco (who of course did not "die", but somehow managed to escape, and took Galerion's corpse with him). It's not specified where these mountains in the North are, but it doesn't sound like a tropical island in the South of the continent.

Unless this year ends with an epilogue that takes place somewhere else in Tamriel, something like "We found out Mannimarco has returned. We need to face him in Skyrim." - But honestly, that last battle would probably look much less epic in game than it is described in lore. We won't see shaking mountains, huge armies, etc. Maybe it's better not to show it directly, because it can't meet the expectations people who know that lorebook will have about that event.

Edit: Added the last part.

But don’t forget
the villain they mentioned in the stream wasn’t Mannimarco, and Mannimarco hasn’t ‘officially’ been released/escaped from Coldharbour yet (some PCs might have taken the route of insanity and freed him, but not everyone would have - I know I didn’t). Given the emphasis on returning characters, I’m expecting the Solstice villain to be setting up the conditions for his release/lichdom, and that’ll be the twist for this plotline.

Then next year we fight Mannimarco directly in Skyrim or something.

I freed him. To live in the wretched company of mortals for centuries and millennia is a bigger punishment than to stay on that cozy little bed in Coldharbour.

You see I had good reasons.

soelslaev wrote: »

Well, first of all, his friends call him "Manny", so that might explain why he hasn't updated you on his whereabouts.

Are you sure they don't call him Marco? Maybe Bethesda originally planned to call him Marcomanni instead of Mannimarco, but then there were problems.

Arunei wrote: »

But as far as spoilers go? If you play out of suggested order, you're going to run across them.

The thing that bothers me this time is that the new prologue npc literally yells the outcome of the Fighters Guild basegame quest into every new player's face. I don't know where he's placed in the other alliance towns, but for the Pact, he's in Davon's Watch, directly between both crafting boards and really on the most important and most-frequented spot of that town. No matter if you're heading for the crafting area, the stables, the harbour, or trying to get into or leave town through the gate, you'll hear him yelling every time. I don't think that's good planning because a new player will get to that spot very early, so this will be both a spoiler as well as confusing, I guess.

colossalvoids · April 13

On one hand I like them moving the timeline and continuing with story somehow but the execution of it lacks tremendously compared to stuff done before. At least there were some word gates to explain the why's without taking you too far out of the game but it's literally shouting in the first major zone you're visiting on a way to join the guild. It's a bit bizarre they didn't even cared to put some safeguards or at least a pop up when you interact with them about it's being continuation of the xyz stories that's better be explored first for best experience.

Vrienda · April 15

Yeah, it's a good thing that the world is finally moving forward again.

That said they should put a 'It is recommended you finish the main, fighters and mages guild questlines before undertaking this questline for the best experience' warning in front of the quest.

ADarklore · April 15

This is why MMOs have a problem with also being an RPG; because you cannot progress without separating players into different 'time/space' instances of the game. I mean, we still have this problem to an extent- when a player finishes certain quests in the game- that space changes for them... but when they accompany another player in the same space, it's out of sync unless they're grouped- and then you see the group leader's time/space.

So it is difficult for an MMO to not separate players, if they moved time forward, they would need to create different time/space instances for those who have completed it and those who have not.

Chufu · April 21

Vrienda wrote: »

Yeah, it's a good thing that the world is finally moving forward again.

That said they should put a 'It is recommended you finish the main, fighters and mages guild questlines before undertaking this questline for the best experience' warning in front of the quest.

Definitely a good idea, because I don't think that new players would necessary know in which "order" this game has to be played. Sure some quests you get at the beginning, but we all know that players get easily distracted or take 10 other quests on as well without really knowing what this quest is for.

It bothered me a lot tbh that the new Prologue quest with Azandar kinda requires you to have played the other parts before as otherwise some mentions either don't make sense at all or you spoiler yourself as the outcome of the mainstory is mentioned within the conversation of the quest.

I mean it was clear, that ESO will have this issue because of their approach to "everbody can play as they want and they can take on the quest they like at the time and don't have to play in any order", but then why bringing the wormcult back and with it a storyline that bases on previous quests, which is definitely something that "Veteran" players profit more from than new players?

So yeah a warning of some kind to first play the other 3 quests through before taking on the new Prologue quest would be the minimum I would expect.