Subclasses and the impact on the balance of PvP

Poss · April 10

I know Mr Wheeler touched on this in the stream about how the devs are going to monitor the whole effect on balance but I don’t have much hope with that.

I’m honestly excited about this for PvE, it’s going to complete shake up trial comps but I’m very VERY worried for Cyrodiil.

We already have an excruciating ballgroup meta and high health tanks plaguing the map. Adding this to PvP is a very bad idea and will likely push players away. Corrosive incap speccy builds with sorc shields and streak? Nah this really hasn’t been thought through

Crimsonorion · April 10

PvP'ers are a revolving door, nothing is gonna stop that. Someone builds a meta class, dominates for a while then something changes, they cry "Games broken! Unbalanced" take a break for a couple months then come right back. I understand this class skill line swap might upset PvP'ers..but everything change related upsets PvP'ers lol

xylena_lazarow · April 10

I love it. When everything is op, nothing is. Can't wait to make tri class monstrosities.

Poss · April 10

Crimsonorion wrote: »

everything change related upsets PvP'ers lol

Why wouldn’t it? Every update has been pushed through without thinking about the impact it’ll have on PvP. Cyrodiil hasn’t had a substantial update since Elsweyr in 2019 when we got Volundrung (still broken btw) and we’re still waiting for the results of the FAQ in January

tomofhyrule · April 10

Yeah, this could go really badly for PvP if the balance isn't perfect, and I'll even say that PvE endgame will have issues as well.

I'm not a theorycrafter at all and I don't like PvP... but even then I can still think of a few PvP hyper-toxicity builds. Imagine your typical Warden Polar Wind spammer... who now has access to DK Magma Armor (and the passive that restores resources on ult) so they can essentially use Polar Wind as a spammable to their now-immortal buddy can just feed them ultimate with Cryptcanon. Or imagine your standard NB ganker who uses Ambush to proc Rush of Agony... and then hits someone with Mages Wrath so then RoA pops it also procs a second explosion, which nobody can escape because said ganker stunned everyone when they Streaked away.

And in PvE land, the legions of Arcanists now all including Jesus beam. Heck, give them all Matriarchs and get rid of healers completely! If the execute of a boss lasts 10 seconds, then why bother with healers when you could have two more DPS!

This is going to be... interesting.

I was really hoping that subclassing would be available for normal and overland content only, while veteran instances and PvP would require people to stick to a single class. Nobody'll care if your RP build is over- or under-powered in overland, but in a competitive setting it will matter and it will matter a lot.

Twohothardware · April 10

PvP needs to either move to a standardized template for classes and stats so that everyone is on equal footing like during the Cyrodiil Champions Test or they need to just let PvP be the free for all zone that it is and stop nerfing things trying to balance all the sets and classes which can't be done.

Oblivion_Protocol · April 10

NB with Merciless, Frag, and Jesus Beam. Yeah, that sounds horrifying.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

I love it. When everything is op, nothing is. Can't wait to make tri class monstrosities.

Except that’s not how it works. One or two things will be more OP than the other OP things, and they’ll become the new meta. What I predict is that this will end up like Scribing. People try different combinations for like three days before finding what works and sticking with it until the end of time.

Stx · April 10

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

I love it. When everything is op, nothing is. Can't wait to make tri class monstrosities.

Exactly this.

It’s only a few hours into this announcement and you already so dozens of “This class with X class skill is going to be OP” There will be lots of options and it’s going to raise the skill ceiling too.

Crimsonorion · April 10

Poss wrote: »

Crimsonorion wrote: »

everything change related upsets PvP'ers lol

Why wouldn’t it? Every update has been pushed through without thinking about the impact it’ll have on PvP. Cyrodiil hasn’t had a substantial update since Elsweyr in 2019 when we got Volundrung (still broken btw) and we’re still waiting for the results of the FAQ in January

People who PvP hardcore enough to care about changes represent a very small fraction of the player base [Note, not saying ALL PvPers, I'm saying the hardcore min/maxers] and they tend to be the ones shouting the loudest. It sucks when a change upsets the PvP balance yes, but in the end PvP isn't the only thing this game offers its playerbase, not gonna make everyone happy

Dojohoda · April 10

I'm wondering if players will slot shadowy disguise on their non-nightblade characters. 🥸
Also, I'm wondering how many pets one character can have.

Twohothardware · April 10

Dojohoda wrote: »

I'm wondering if players will slot shadowy disguise on their non-nightblade characters. 🥸
Also, I'm wondering how many pets one character can have.

Imagine one of the ball group zergs all with Shadowy Disguise. Now you see them, now you don't lol.

Pepegrillos · April 10

What balance?

coop500 · April 11

This is going to be cracked in PVE too, this isn't good. Everyone's just gonna run a combo of beam now.

blktauna · April 11

Pepegrillos wrote: »

What balance?

Exactly

and omg the calc rates will be through the roof and the lag will be even more epic

not looking forward to it at all.

ItsNotLiving · April 11

In PvE you will have 3 classes (optimized Tank, Healer, and DPS) and in PvP you’ll have the most unfun meta you’ve ever had as soon as new toy syndrome dies down. Nail in the coffin for any sort of end game play.

Ratzkifal · April 11

Stx wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

I love it. When everything is op, nothing is. Can't wait to make tri class monstrosities.

Exactly this.

It’s only a few hours into this announcement and you already so dozens of “This class with X class skill is going to be OP” There will be lots of options and it’s going to raise the skill ceiling too.

No. It'll result in a tank meta. The hyper toxic oneshot builds will drive everyone to be as tanky as possible, which is now easier than ever and thus everyone will turtle up and we'll be in the most boring state that PvP has ever seen. And those who refuse to chase the meta will be blown up on the spot of course.

There is the fun state of "everything is OP" and there is the unfun state of "everything is OP". Three months into Update 46, we'll be wishing it never happened as ZOS will inevitably nerf the fun parts of what used to be class defining skills in Update 47 now that everyone is abusing them in ways that they were never intended to be used in.

Ragnarok0130 · April 11

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

In PvE you will have 3 classes (optimized Tank, Healer, and DPS) and in PvP you’ll have the most unfun meta you’ve ever had as soon as new toy syndrome dies down. Nail in the coffin for any sort of end game play.

This is exactly what will happen. I'm not looking forward to playing Elder Scrolls the Clone Wars.

LadyGP · April 11

With the recent test they did... I hope they lean into it even more (sounds like they are). I'd love to see PvP specific skills/sets and PvE specific skills/sets. Yes, that would be a pain in the butt to manage and build out at first (they would need to build some kind of tool/system to easily manage if it it doesn't already exist).

As is... the subclass going into PvP is going to cause people to get steamrolled for a while. Think block tanks, ball groups, gankers, not dial them up to 100. Those people who are on the more casual side.... are in for a bad time.

That is assuming they don't tweak anything like my first paragraph. If they decided to split the balance for PvP/PvE I think it would make both core groups happy - and truthfully it would make things easier on ZOS in the long run overall balance of the game.

ForumBully · April 11

Trying to remember when this PvP balance you refer to happened...

Udrath · April 11

Only way this can be somewhat balanced is if they reduce all skills in the game to the bare minimum similar to vengeance skills. Like triple buffs or more on one skill shouldn’t exist.

Major and minor buffs/debuffs need to be less, and require some sacrifice on builds like using different sets, and weighing the cost of using one skill over another more than in live.

Sarannah · April 11

OP, this feature(subclassing) is actually what most PvPers have asked for after the vengeance test... PvPers did not want the bare minimum skills available vengeance campaign where everyone was mostly equal, they(PvPers) wanted all their power in Cyrodiil to be fully available to them. In truth ZOS can't balance that power, so they now grant that power to everyone.

Instant near 100% balance!

ArchMikem · April 11

Did everyone forget about the Vengeance Camp? There's every possibility that will come back permanently, making this a moot point.

LadyGP · April 11

ArchMikem wrote: »

Did everyone forget about the Vengeance Camp? There's every possibility that will come back permanently, making this a moot point.

It's not - they have openly said it will not become the main camp.

IF ANYTHING I could see them making it the under 50 camp to help ease people into PvP.

El_Borracho · April 11

Crimsonorion wrote: »

Poss wrote: »

Crimsonorion wrote: »

everything change related upsets PvP'ers lol

Why wouldn’t it? Every update has been pushed through without thinking about the impact it’ll have on PvP. Cyrodiil hasn’t had a substantial update since Elsweyr in 2019 when we got Volundrung (still broken btw) and we’re still waiting for the results of the FAQ in January

People who PvP hardcore enough to care about changes represent a very small fraction of the player base [Note, not saying ALL PvPers, I'm saying the hardcore min/maxers] and they tend to be the ones shouting the loudest. It sucks when a change upsets the PvP balance yes, but in the end PvP isn't the only thing this game offers its playerbase, not gonna make everyone happy

I disagree. I am not a hardcore PVPer and the first thing I thought of when subclassing came up was "PVP is going to be awful." "Minor" changes to sorcs turned them into the majority in PVP. "Minor" changes to necros obliterated them in PVP. "Minor" changes to wardens created the Polar Wind cheese build. "Minor" changes to DK made DK the dominant class in PVP, then "Minor" changes to Corrosive Armor knocked them off that pedestal.

I can't wait to see what insane builds come out of this, and then how many once perfect skills get nerfed as a result One thing is for certain, RIP Scribing. That didn't last long.

xylena_lazarow · April 12

Good chance we end up with Vengeance as the balanced fair PvP campaign, and then for Gray Host they'll unleash everything and let players go nuts with broken builds, like Smash with all items and hazards turned on. I'm ok with that.

Tandor · April 12

The main problems with balancing arise when certain over-powered skill lines are either locked behind a paywall or are only available to a certain class. If those skill lines are freely available to all players then it is generally less controversial, or should be.

Cooperharley · April 12

ArchMikem wrote: »

Did everyone forget about the Vengeance Camp? There's every possibility that will come back permanently, making this a moot point.

I hope so lol. That's generally the only way I'd like to touch PvP in this game. Going against ball groups, immortal people, and gankblades complete ruins cyrodiil for my friends and I. We had so much fun in vengeance.

Unfadingsilence · April 12

Tbh it won't change my nightblade bomber at all, and with my 1vX nightblade which is already perfect guess ill look at other classes to see how i can improve on something already perfect

sarahthes · April 12

Y'all need to make a bingo card like we have for PvE endgame LOL.

katanagirl1 · April 13

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Good chance we end up with Vengeance as the balanced fair PvP campaign, and then for Gray Host they'll unleash everything and let players go nuts with broken builds, like Smash with all items and hazards turned on. I'm ok with that.

I’m not okay with that. Hopefully others aren’t either. I don’t have 20 year old reflexes and I don’t want to be in the kiddie pool in a Vengeance campaign. How boring.

I think you underestimate the destruction of what is left in Gray Host Cyrodiil could be.

Joy_Division · April 13

Ball groups are going to have a field day mixing and matching the skill lines.