Can you revive PvP a bit? I'm tired of so many ball groups.

Rhodghard · April 4

Simple, can you run a campaign, with no proc sets?

Could you run a campaign like Vengeance, but with all the skills usable? Just that. (weapon skills, Guild skills, Class skills)

I'm and we're really tired of going into Cyrodill and only seeing ball groups. It's really boring, and for people new to PvP in this game, it's normal for them to run away to something else or another game.

Rohamad_Ali · April 4

PvP has gone back to dead campaigns once again after the test.

SpiritKitten · April 4

Rhodghard wrote: »

Simple, can you run a campaign, with no proc sets?

Could you run a campaign like Vengeance, but with all the skills usable? Just that. (weapon skills, Guild skills, Class skills)

I'm and we're really tired of going into Cyrodill and only seeing ball groups. It's really boring, and for people new to PvP in this game, it's normal for them to run away to something else or another game.

There was a campaign like that and it's called ravenwatch. And they switched it back to having proc sets to match the battlegrounds because Ravenwatch population was almost non-existent.

Theignson · April 4

Without their proc sets (PoA, VD) and cross heals the ball groups wouldn’t play in Vengeance. They all discovered how much of a crutch those sets and skills were.

It was much more fun than the dead Cyrodiil of today with its unkillable ball groups killing with procs and ulti dumps.

In vengeance I only played my NB and Sorc and they were actually OP. Grim resolve could still hit for 20k. Their defense was super strong. I didn’t die much and had a sky high K:D , probably mostly against newer players who didn’t know what to do against bursts. But it was a huge relief to have an absolutely level playing field.

Most of the people complaining are upset because they lost their CP (yes, I understand, I especially missed speed and decreased fall damage) or their OP builds (yes theorycrafting is fun ), or the proc sets (free damage, the most extreme being VD)

They couldn’t stand this level playing field where everyone has the same sets and the only difference was skill level.

Rhodghard · April 5

I'm just asking for different campaigns, because right now Grayhost and Blackreach are the same. Why have two identical campaigns? Can't they at least have one with CP but no proc sets?

Precisely for that, to level the playing field for each player, so there aren't any ball groups where you can't do anything.

Another big flaw is that the Echoing Vigor skill shouldn't stack, meaning if one person casts it on 10 people, they should heal that one alone, not the 10 people they're casting it on. We're talking about +10K healing per second, and that's one of the serious flaws in why ball groups are immortal.

In short, what I'm asking for is that they run two different campaigns, and that you can join whichever one you want. I'm not asking for much. If you want to queue for grayhost, then do it, but at least have a PvP where you can choose. There are probably a lot of people who don't want to waste their time doing PvP against countless ball groups.

Heren · April 5

SpiritKitten wrote: »

There was a campaign like that and it's called ravenwatch. And they switched it back to having proc sets to match the battlegrounds because Ravenwatch population was almost non-existent.

And now ravenwatch is still a dead campaign, because the problem was not mainly the rules - some 2, 3 years ago ravenwatch used to be 'alive', somewhat balanced at least -, the problem is most likely the general population os ESO, and the part of it doing PvP. The new ravenwatch should just simply be terminated like the old, maybe replace by a vengeance-like campaign.

aetherix8 · April 5

Heren wrote: »

And now ravenwatch is still a dead campaign, because the problem was not mainly the rules - some 2, 3 years ago ravenwatch used to be 'alive', somewhat balanced at least -, the problem is most likely the general population os ESO, and the part of it doing PvP. The new ravenwatch should just simply be terminated like the old, maybe replace by a vengeance-like campaign.

Devs abandoned Ravenwatch no-Proc fairly early and the population followed, that is the main reason I believe.
From what I’ve seen here on forums, there seems to be quite a pool of players in waiting (a pool that is expanding further following Vengeance eye opener).
If there were a Vengeance-like mode, many would jump back in. But if the new mode is exactly like the test then it would be dead in no time too.
We need a fix to the mess that Cyro is rn for sure, time will tell if current tests will lead to anything other than simply improving the performance.

One should keep in mind tho, no matter what is the mode, players will look for ways to group play at maximum efficiency. Few days into Vengeance, I did see attempts at organizing groups in a way that they managed to out heal oils, for example. Ball groups will exist in any mode and that’s ok as long as they can be defeated.

Markytous · April 5

Heren wrote: »

SpiritKitten wrote: »

There was a campaign like that and it's called ravenwatch. And they switched it back to having proc sets to match the battlegrounds because Ravenwatch population was almost non-existent.

And now ravenwatch is still a dead campaign, because the problem was not mainly the rules - some 2, 3 years ago ravenwatch used to be 'alive', somewhat balanced at least -, the problem is most likely the general population os ESO, and the part of it doing PvP. The new ravenwatch should just simply be terminated like the old, maybe replace by a vengeance-like campaign.

I used to be a Ravenwatch only player, too. Since procs were reactivated in there I've never returned. What's the point? It was the skillful PVP server but what I've learned about the community of PVP players that have come and gone over the years is that they're not interested in being good - they're interested in feeling like they are "the best" and crutching on proc sets provides that. Majority of PVP players don't know or care to know mastery over core combat mechanics. They chose Grey Host and allowed Ravenwatch to die. Now they're back trying to kill the Vengeance Cyrodiil Champions program. I've been PVPing for almost a decade now. I'm sick of these fake "hardcore PVP" players getting in the way of fun, fair and balanced PVP at every turn (even to the point where they advocate for laggy servers). They choose their egos and cheap, ephemeral satisfaction over the health and accessibility of their game mode. It's not more fun treating it like a special club. They farm players with proctrains (Ballgroups) then wonder why people don't want to play anymore - dismissing anyone who doesn't like it as a PVE main. This kind of mindset has left scars on Cyrodiil and, yes, the community is to blame in part for this. Sometimes the developers do listen to feedback - sometimes feedback is just outright detrimental. It's true that the developers haven't always made good decisions but with Vengeance at least they're trying, now. Cyrodiil has become valueless. Something, ANYTHING, needs to happen and I'd rather see a fun, playable Cyrodiil. It has been an excuse to queue out of Imperial City instead of using Sigils of Imperial Retreat, it has been justified as the solution to the Combat Bug to queue out of PVP during fights. Its all just a bunch if exploits to protect fragile egos. Things need to change.

AngryPenguin · April 5

Rhodghard wrote: »

Simple, can you run a campaign, with no proc sets?

Could you run a campaign like Vengeance, but with all the skills usable? Just that. (weapon skills, Guild skills, Class skills)

I'm and we're really tired of going into Cyrodill and only seeing ball groups. It's really boring, and for people new to PvP in this game, it's normal for them to run away to something else or another game.

They just need to limit HoT's and shields to one instance of each skill on a player at any given time to solve the ball group problem. For some reason they haven't even tried this despite years of people asking for the adjustment.

Vengeance was awful PvP. It was fun for about 15 minutes, and I don't see how any version of vengeance will remain popular for any length of time. It's too different from the original PvP and way worse than several other options out there in the gaming world right now.

SxFurey · April 6

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Vengeance was awful PvP. It was fun for about 15 minutes, and I don't see how any version of vengeance will remain popular for any length of time. It's too different from the original PvP and way worse than several other options out there in the gaming world right now.

I'd take the near lag-free PVP than the dogwater performance issue in Cyro right now any day, any time. Yes, gameplay is slower but my skills and potions are firing as they should. Plus, nothing will beat experiencing 300+ player tri-keep fights. I'm sure many others would say the same.

xFocused · April 6

SxFurey wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Vengeance was awful PvP. It was fun for about 15 minutes, and I don't see how any version of vengeance will remain popular for any length of time. It's too different from the original PvP and way worse than several other options out there in the gaming world right now.

I'd take the near lag-free PVP than the dogwater performance issue in Cyro right now any day, any time. Yes, gameplay is slower but my skills and potions are firing as they should. Plus, nothing will beat experiencing 300+ player tri-keep fights. I'm sure many others would say the same.

This. Seeing all these complaints are just ridiculous to me. Gray Host is absolutely atrocious right now with the insane amount of lagging/rubberbanding/stuck in combat nonstop, then you add how literally almost everyone is in some kind of comped out ball group/small scale or running one of the unkillable sorc/warden meta builds. It's just so stale that I honestly have no idea how anyone considers it better than this Vengeance test

Major_Toughness · April 6

Just make your own group to kill the others.

colossalvoids · April 6

That kind of started the move with Raven but didn't committed and it died out, partially because modern PvP scene is absolutely fine with current mode, old players are mostly already left and not coming back to fill it up. But vengeance feedback I was reading in different places suggested that there's people around who actually want to PvP (or even just discovered it's joy) but can't because one or multiple issues current main camp have be it ball groups, broken proc sets enabling all that, infinite tanking or ganking etc. When all frustrating moments are absent there's apparently enough people to sustain a mode that is somewhat balanced, with a different ruleset to break the mold. Meanwhile I'm most certain most Ravenwatch enjoyers are just laying in wait same as other people who do want to play, but can't in environment that are presented.

xylena_lazarow · April 6

colossalvoids wrote: »

Meanwhile I'm most certain most Ravenwatch enjoyers are just laying in wait

This might be the funniest sentence I've ever read on these forums. Yeah all 5 of them lol.

Jokes aside yeah I'm waiting for Vengeance to come back too. Cyro at this point is just organized sweatlords letting their comp spreadsheets play the game for them, just so they can stomp whichever randoms are too clueless or diehard to avoid being stomped. The game was broken even without proc sets or cp, look at all the busted max stat MagSorc spam. Vengeance has succeeded so far where Ravenwatch failed.

Major_Mangle · April 6

The problem isn´t the concept of ballgroups or organized group-play, it´s an MMO after all and playing with others should be encouraged and rewarding. The problem is the lack of adequate counterplay to organized group play. For some strange reason ZOS rather rework PvP from the ground and up, than adjusting the few overperforming tools that´s been pointed out by the community for ages. On top of that ZOS also seems to like removing the few counterplay options that was available (Azureblight is the prime example of this, please revert this change ZOS).

colossalvoids · April 6

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Meanwhile I'm most certain most Ravenwatch enjoyers are just laying in wait

This might be the funniest sentence I've ever read on these forums. Yeah all 5 of them lol.

Jokes aside yeah I'm waiting for Vengeance to come back too. Cyro at this point is just organized sweatlords letting their comp spreadsheets play the game for them, just so they can stomp whichever randoms are too clueless or diehard to avoid being stomped. The game was broken even without proc sets or cp, look at all the busted max stat MagSorc spam. Vengeance has succeeded so far where Ravenwatch failed.

We're not five, there's at least seven of us so keep us in mind please. It's a figurative Ravenwatch, where Vengeance went full in as Raven was just tickling the issue a bit leaving most other issues present to not offend current status quo players. I'd agree on desire to bring Ven again as it is probably better for everyone to start from the building block one and work from there as the whole structure is ultimately flawed and no amount of subtracting seems to fix it for real. It seems way easier to work like that instead of working backwards from what's already there, might also give them new ideas and free space for it's execution. Gladly the mechanical core is still there.

Xarc · April 6

Ravenwatch exists :
- no proc
- no cp
- no ballgroup
- no bomber
- no player.

xFocused · April 6

Xarc wrote: »

Ravenwatch exists :
- no proc
- no cp
- no ballgroup
- no bomber
- no player.

It’s actually quite sad to see how dead RW is these days lol. I remember when it was fully populated and having tons of fun in that campaign too, it’s just a ghost town now

Major_Toughness · April 6

xFocused wrote: »

Xarc wrote: »

Ravenwatch exists :
- no proc
- no cp
- no ballgroup
- no bomber
- no player.

It’s actually quite sad to see how dead RW is these days lol. I remember when it was fully populated and having tons of fun in that campaign too, it’s just a ghost town now

I remember it before No-Proc too. Used to pop lock every night.

Heren · April 6

Major_Mangle wrote: »

The problem isn´t the concept of ballgroups or organized group-play, it´s an MMO after all and playing with others should be encouraged and rewarding. The problem is the lack of adequate counterplay to organized group play. For some strange reason ZOS rather rework PvP from the ground and up, than adjusting the few overperforming tools that´s been pointed out by the community for ages. On top of that ZOS also seems to like removing the few counterplay options that was available (Azureblight is the prime example of this, please revert this change ZOS).

Quite true. If vengeance campaign become a permament thing and at least a semi-succesful one, at some point some people will attempt to gather a majority of players in order to reign supreme - for a time at least. I still remember the infamous AD zerg master of Ravenwatch - at time you know you were going to face a yellow invasion for the rest of the evening, and that you couldn't really do much about that.

Yet - the vast difference with ballgroup, is that you will most likely need to gather a significant number of people in order to gain a significant adventage against the others factions. Ballgroup don't require that - players skill aside, the needed lvl of it I can't judge.

So while a potential futur vengeance campaign will most likely inevitably see attempt, and possibly success to dominate the campaign, they might also be less common, regular and ruthless than ballgroups. Which I would take everyday, everynight ( well maybe not everytime, let's be honest ). Also it's fun to kill the infamous zerg master and discover that... he's just made of paper or something.

blktauna · April 6

PCEU Ravenwatch is hopping during primetime.

The one problem there was with noProc was that ZOS couldn't tell us what those sets actually were. Some would work sometimes, some others ones that should have worked didn't and ones that shouldn't did. A vengence type baseline would remove that issue.

Rhodghard · April 7

I keep saying the same thing: what they should do at least is have 2 or 3 different campaigns, not like the current ones where there are literally 3 that are the same.

If you want to play with proc sets, face balls, and die 2,000 times, then you queue for Grayhost. But Blackreach, for example, should be non-procs or something that differentiates Grayhost.

Raven definitely died the day they implemented proc sets. Back when that campaign with non-proc sets was around, it had its audience, and a lot of people joined.

Major_Mangle · April 7

Rhodghard wrote: »

I keep saying the same thing: what they should do at least is have 2 or 3 different campaigns, not like the current ones where there are literally 3 that are the same.

If you want to play with proc sets, face balls, and die 2,000 times, then you queue for Grayhost. But Blackreach, for example, should be non-procs or something that differentiates Grayhost.

Raven definitely died the day they implemented proc sets. Back when that campaign with non-proc sets was around, it had its audience, and a lot of people joined.

Ravenwatch got killed because of the implementation of no-proc, not the other way around. PCEU Ravenwatch was on a regular basis filled before Greyhost before they made it no proc.

Rhodghard · April 7

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Rhodghard wrote: »

I keep saying the same thing: what they should do at least is have 2 or 3 different campaigns, not like the current ones where there are literally 3 that are the same.

If you want to play with proc sets, face balls, and die 2,000 times, then you queue for Grayhost. But Blackreach, for example, should be non-procs or something that differentiates Grayhost.

Raven definitely died the day they implemented proc sets. Back when that campaign with non-proc sets was around, it had its audience, and a lot of people joined.

Ravenwatch got killed because of the implementation of no-proc, not the other way around. PCEU Ravenwatch was on a regular basis filled before Greyhost before they made it no proc.

And why aren't people joining Raven now? Because they have procs enabled. I'm telling you, why would they join a no-CP campaign with procs enabled? They could have joined one with CP and procs enabled...

It doesn't make sense.

Major_Mangle · April 7

Rhodghard wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Rhodghard wrote: »

I keep saying the same thing: what they should do at least is have 2 or 3 different campaigns, not like the current ones where there are literally 3 that are the same.

If you want to play with proc sets, face balls, and die 2,000 times, then you queue for Grayhost. But Blackreach, for example, should be non-procs or something that differentiates Grayhost.

Raven definitely died the day they implemented proc sets. Back when that campaign with non-proc sets was around, it had its audience, and a lot of people joined.

Ravenwatch got killed because of the implementation of no-proc, not the other way around. PCEU Ravenwatch was on a regular basis filled before Greyhost before they made it no proc.

And why aren't people joining Raven now? Because they have procs enabled. I'm telling you, why would they join a no-CP campaign with procs enabled? They could have joined one with CP and procs enabled...

It doesn't make sense.

Because trying to revive something after the funeral has been held is mission impossible. The Ravenwatch population that kept it alive before no proc either:
1. Quit Ravenwatch and mainly went doing battlegrounds.
2. Adapted to CP PvP and went to GH/Blackreach (vast majority)
3. Quit PvP

ZOS ignored Ravenwatch for too long so when they finally reverted no proc the old playerbase was no longer present to refill it. Also, no one that actually want to PvP want to play in an empty campaign, regardless of their preferences of PvP. So a better question to ask would be: Why would anyone want to join an empty/abandoned campaign if they're looking to PvP?

Rhodghard · April 11

Now there are not only group balls wherever you go, but they also lag terribly and are unplayable, so the best option is to close the game and go to another one.

CameraBeardThePirate · April 11

SpiritKitten wrote: »

Rhodghard wrote: »

Simple, can you run a campaign, with no proc sets?

Could you run a campaign like Vengeance, but with all the skills usable? Just that. (weapon skills, Guild skills, Class skills)

I'm and we're really tired of going into Cyrodill and only seeing ball groups. It's really boring, and for people new to PvP in this game, it's normal for them to run away to something else or another game.

There was a campaign like that and it's called ravenwatch. And they switched it back to having proc sets to match the battlegrounds because Ravenwatch population was almost non-existent.

I think a campaign with standardized stats, but otherwise all skills exactly as they are (basically the gear of Vengeance without anything else) would've had much more population than No-Proc had.

A big reason No-Proc Ravenwatch failed was simply that a lot of players didn't want to make a new build just for a Cyrodiil campaign. Take that barrier of entry out and you likely would've seen a lot more players in No-Proc.

MedicInTheWild · April 11

A thought for me is make a rotational campaign, which could change biweekly or monthly. Keeps pvp from being stale.
some ideas for me would be as follows:

No proc ( Lots like this )
Only sets/ skill pre update ?? (33 for example)
No cross healing, or even buffs/debuffs to add.
Health and Damage halved/ or another mix

The main thing would be is that no one would be prepared for it, yes meta would exist but at max for a month.
This could help keep things alive, Vengeance while great performance to me was very stale. more will need added as far a skill/passives complexity to keep game from being all the same builds in the end.

Of coarse keep the main campaigns, I just think it would add some variance to keep people more attached to the game.

With Love.......... Medic

Rhodghard · April 13

If only ZOS could think and satisfy everyone, they would do the following:

Not make three practically identical campaigns (Greyhost, Blackreach, and Ravenwatch)

-Grayhost (campaign with CP and proc sets activated) fun for group balls

-Blackreach (campaign with CP and NO proc sets) not fun for group balls, and fun for the vast majority of people

-Ravenwatch (campaign with NO CP and NO proc sets) not fun for group balls, and fun for the vast majority of people

Pin this comment because this is what people really want, whether you're new or veteran to this game. These guys have been doing PvP for 10 years, and yes, group balls are boring.

WaywardArgonian · April 13

Rhodghard wrote: »

If only ZOS could think and satisfy everyone, they would do the following:

Not make three practically identical campaigns (Greyhost, Blackreach, and Ravenwatch)

-Grayhost (campaign with CP and proc sets activated) fun for group balls

-Blackreach (campaign with CP and NO proc sets) not fun for group balls, and fun for the vast majority of people

-Ravenwatch (campaign with NO CP and NO proc sets) not fun for group balls, and fun for the vast majority of people

Pin this comment because this is what people really want, whether you're new or veteran to this game. These guys have been doing PvP for 10 years, and yes, group balls are boring.

This would not work because no-proc has already proven to be an unpopular ruleset among the wider playerbase and it doesn't get rid of ballgroups. Most ballgroups will simply go where the biggest populations are regardless of the ruleset, even if it's Vengeance.

Rhodghard · April 13

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Rhodghard wrote: »

If only ZOS could think and satisfy everyone, they would do the following:

Not make three practically identical campaigns (Greyhost, Blackreach, and Ravenwatch)

-Grayhost (campaign with CP and proc sets activated) fun for group balls

-Blackreach (campaign with CP and NO proc sets) not fun for group balls, and fun for the vast majority of people

-Ravenwatch (campaign with NO CP and NO proc sets) not fun for group balls, and fun for the vast majority of people

Pin this comment because this is what people really want, whether you're new or veteran to this game. These guys have been doing PvP for 10 years, and yes, group balls are boring.

This would not work because no-proc has already proven to be an unpopular ruleset among the wider playerbase and it doesn't get rid of ballgroups. Most ballgroups will simply go where the biggest populations are regardless of the ruleset, even if it's Vengeance.

I think your answer is perfect, but that doesn't justify anything. You like to play with procs set. In the case I propose, go to greyhost, simple, and let people CHOOSE what they want to play.