Varana wrote: »

Counter argument: It's amazing and a really good idea that they do things like that.
Human artistic expression across time and cultures is amazingly varied. More than artists, trained and used to their own visual language and style, can realistically achieve, under real-world constraints and pressure. Better to adapt and copy existing examples than to fall back by default to what they're used to and what seems "right" or "beautiful" to them.

It's good that they display a wide variety of styles in game that don't neccessarily fit the mainstream Western 21th century idea of "beauty" (although we could argue whether the idea is really that narrow nowadays, especially when it comes to architecture and design). The thing I'm questioning is whether this is only achievable by copying real-world museum pieces from different continents.

Varana wrote: »

Now, that urn isn't very visually distinctive. But it comes from a real tradition with its own formal language, and as such, is grounded in reality. Reusing it is a very effective way of creating a realistic and specific item in a comparatively short time.

I think it is. The shape is rather unusual for a funerary urn (most urns are rounded) and I don't think the pattern is arbitrary but most probably carries a symbolic meaning (Maybe it's supposed to look like tortoise shell? Turtles have a significance as symbol animals in many Asian cultures, another great example for their symbolism in burial rites are the Chinese turtleback tombs, but that's a different topic). This is a thing that strangely many people nowadays seem to miss: That things often used to carry heavy symbolism, especially when it comes to important life events, due to the people having been much more religious (and also supersticious) in history. So an urn, for example, would not just be designed to "look nice", and even a building would carry symbolism in the way it has been built (one of my Dunmer houses has a long corridor as an entrance, with three sealed doors - guess why).

So, while I'm not an expert on the Philippines, I think that the urn looks the way it does because the design is rooted in this specific culture's beliefs and symbolism. What makes it a Redoran urn? I can accept if ZOS says "Yeah, that's an ancient Dunmer/Velothi design, it's just the way it is". But this wouldn't be the way I'd design a Dunmer urn.

What would I do? I would be wondering about the central points of the religion, folk beliefs and philosophy of the people I want to portray. What things have a significance for them, which symbols occur regularly, what religious tales do they know, are there any saints, folk heroes or mythological characters that are popular? One thing we see in Dunmer culture regularly is the hand symbol of the Tribunal. Another thing we often come across is the triangle, which can both stand for the Tribunal as well as, before their apotheosis, the earlier veneration of the Good Daedra Azura, Boethia and Mephala. I would design the urn around these ideas. Or one could make it more a family or clan thing. Ancestral veneration is a big part of Dunmer culture, after all. We know the Houses have symbols, I would expect to also find these on their ancestral urns.

I would also be wondering about which craft tools they know and which materials are available naturally in their lands. The Dunmer live in a region with lots of volcanic activity, which means volcanic glass such as obsidian is widely available. Another gem that would be common would be jade. So these would be common materials used in their handicrafts.

Just with these few thoughts, I could now draw you 30 different urn designs around the Great Houses and the Tribunal religion, no need to copy funerary urns from museum websites. I don't find it difficult, the ideas come naturally as soon as I wonder what one people stands for, what they believe and how they live. And no, I'm not an artist or designer by trade.

Varana wrote: »

Added bonus, adapting real-world items appreciates the various cultures these items come from. People won't suddenly start looking for Philippine art after seeing that urn, but it does work the other way 'round - if you know where an item comes from, it's a cool effect to see it represented and transported into a fictional world.

It has been fun in the beginning, I have to admit. As in "Oh, my mom also has a Telvanni table at home" and "Grandma owned a Hlaalu stool in my childhood". But it has become a game of "Which museum catalogue will the new items be from this time?" by now.

Edit: I hate typos.

Varana wrote: »

ESO, and Tamriel as a whole, was never just "medieval". (Also, if we wanted to stay medieval, where are my cannons?!?)

One problem is that Tamriel as a whole has no consistent visual style across games.
TES5:Skyrim follows a Nordic aesthetic rather closely. With a lot of ahistorical clichés, but it has a consistent theme.
TES4:Oblivion, on the other hand, is all over the place - pseudo-Romanesque-ish armour, kinda-medieval vibes, Renaissance or Baroque clothing and clutter, with various other stuff randomly thrown in.
TES3:Morrowind doesn't have a clear real-life counterpart at all, except for "somewhen in history, but bugs and resin".
Only the older main games are "classical" fantasy, but then - they are old.

That works in a single-player game in a restricted area. In ESO, you can hop all over the place, and bring your Nord pelts to Murkmire or the Alik'r. And run in "Brazilian" carnival costumes through an active war zone in winter. (The costumes are a bit bright-coloured, but the general form isn't really out of place, imho. They just belong to a parade or a religious or communal festival, not everyday life. But you can't enforce that in a game like this.)

After the initial release, ESO has done little to create consistency out of this chaos, even before overly flashy Clown Store items. And yes, they're clearly not interested in maintaining a visual identity except oversized hip plates.

But Tamriel was never just pseudo-medieval like so much of classical fantasy. (We've not even mentioned the heavy steampunk elements yet.) On the contrary, it shouldn't be.

With the exception of Morrowind (and Redguard, but that's very old as well), the single-player games all took place in very European-inspired corners of Tamriel. But there are so many more, and in some cases, ESO has done a great job at breaking up those fantasy clichés and bringing other influences into the world - be it the Mayaztec-inspired Argonians, the Middle East, kinda-Southeast Asia-ish with some Khajiit stuff, and so on.
But even the European visuals are not just pseudo-medieval. (And many "medieval" European clichés are actually early modern.) The Renaissance spans both medieval and post-medieval times, BTW, and fits quite well for a lot of Cyrodiilic stuff. Especially because that is about aesthetics, not a clear advancement. Ancient Greeks theoretically had all of the technology to tailor their clothing in a Napoleonic style, they just didn't come up with it.

In the end, it's about vibes, flair, how things feel. Wide-brimmed hats don't feel out of place for me, but then, I don't consume a lot of media with the "American Western" style. If you associate them primarily with John Wayne, it's probably more of an issue. But that's often a personal association, or media cliché, and can vary from one person to another.

Yes, Elder scroll is set in an kind of renaissance setting with some technology like sawmills and printing more advanced.
You saw this well in Skyrim Viking ascetic but an 17th hundred sawmill with carriage return. Yes it was a thing but not automated An replica mill near me has one, they use an small separate waterwheel for the carriage return.
Printing, well books are everywhere and cheap.

And khajiit, bosmer and argonians never had an culture before ESO. Bosmer was not so easy as they don't build with logs or planks, but they can form trees into houses. Khajiit was a bit random but south east Asia worked I say, redguards has the middle east. Leaving the argonians living in more swampy and hotter jungles than bosmers.

I read that Hermes the Ancient Greek god wore a petasos, which is a wide brimmed hat. There were convincing pictures and images from jars that the ancient Greeks invented the cowboy hat.

They don't bother me. Mostly I wear the werewolf hunter hat.

My favourite mount is a flashy mount that gets struck by lightning when it rears. It's on the other server so I don't annoy people with it very often.

I didn't realise it was affecting the rumble on other players' controllers. Sorry.

Mesite wrote: »

I read that Hermes the Ancient Greek god wore a petasos, which is a wide brimmed hat. There were convincing pictures and images from jars that the ancient Greeks invented the cowboy hat.

They don't bother me. Mostly I wear the werewolf hunter hat.

My favourite mount is a flashy mount that gets struck by lightning when it rears. It's on the other server so I don't annoy people with it very often.

I didn't realise it was affecting the rumble on other players' controllers. Sorry.

It’s not your fault that they do this. ZOS should limit things like that to the user and not subject the rest of us to it.

It’s also not a huge deal, but can startle you if you are concentrating on what you are doing.

I'm not quite sure where you get the "flushing" there. It's a chair with a chamber pot.
Which is absolutely time-appropriate for like at least the 16th century.
Also, flushing isn't actually high-tec.

At this point, I'm sorry to say, it's not about ESO's aesthetics any more. It's just that you seem to have a very narrow idea about what time period and region the game is "allowed" to draw inspiration from - and that never applied to Tamriel at all -, and also a somewhat narrow conception of the real-life material culture of those eras.

Varana wrote: »

I'm not quite sure where you get the "flushing" there. It's a chair with a chamber pot.
Which is absolutely time-appropriate for like at least the 16th century.
Also, flushing isn't actually high-tec.

At this point, I'm sorry to say, it's not about ESO's aesthetics any more. It's just that you seem to have a very narrow idea about what time period and region the game is "allowed" to draw inspiration from - and that never applied to Tamriel at all -, and also a somewhat narrow conception of the real-life material culture of those eras.

I think the flushing thing comes from the pull string on the side of the chair (hard to notice at the angle of the screenshot) But I agree with your post.


Personally I always headcanoned wealthier people in the TES world generally having access to basic shower/plumbing systems in their homes, adopted from dwemer technology.

I'm not someone who wants to see ''modern'' stuff in the TES world, since a huge reason I like TES at all as because I love historical fantasy, but I think it can be appropriate to take different things from different areas, and still be able to maintain a consistent aesthetic and theme.


Kind of related, my altmer lady's tub and shower in her home:



flipped an alinor fountain upside down to convey a rain-head-like shower head that you can stand under, with the tap at the bottom for filling the tub