1. IMO Vengence is the way to go. It severely closes the gap between super skilled and new player. A skilled player still has a massive advantage, but it's not like BG's where you can get globaled on a tank build in 2 seconds flat (first second going to lag/netcode).
2. I agree with the "what is the point in being in here" as their are no rewards. That part ZOS needs to address. If not gear, then mounts, furniture, collectables, etc.
3. Vengence also highlights who are using 3rd party cheats infinitely easier. There is little group synergy, and you can test the offending class yourself easily to see if you are hitting the same after a day of testing on the same types of targets (I know as an absolute there are people using cheats in vengence. 25k Lightning floods when I am not debuffed....I don't think so, not to mention some unkillable necromancers. The spirit mender does not keep a necro alive when they have a destruction staff, their armor up and are being beaten on by 10 people while sprinting and taking zero damage for 20 seconds...and yes I have seen it).
4. Agreed that numbers seem to be key, but I think coordination still has massive benefits. IMO, the zone should auto group you and your friends into a larger group and be given a group name (similar to battleground team names). This will help groups coordinate better. The UI could also help with this as the map could show you where they are at. OF course this would require to force your account one one faction to reduce spying. There could be some kind of reward structure or title for players who know how to lead and are willing to take the job. My biggest complaint, and a complaint I have held since the first time I tried cyrodill in 2017 was being forced into comms to get into a group. That turned my wife and I severely off from even going into the zone.
5. Vengence does not allow for "grief killing" like can happen in a BG. Where a squishy target is focused over and over by the same offending player for an easy kill. WOW made a statement years back that there should be no hard counters in game, but in ESO this is falls in the players hands and is extremely difficult to do as you can't reliably predict what you will go up against and there is no one size fits all build. With the dev currated balance and the size of the zone this becomes almost a non issue.


Vengence is certainly not perfect. Its still troublesome for folks like myself with high ping. Clicking E to enter a keep is met with nothing. Press E again, nothing. Press it again and you might finally get in. You have a horde of enemies on your tail? Spamming E to get in, gets you in and out and dead. This has happened to my wife and I more than I can count. I'd like to see a 3 second timer placed on entering a door so that you can't be put back outside immediately.

The lack of reward stucture will make this a no go zone in short time. More stuff like the writ vendor needs to be made available for AP. I mean this is not a hard problem to solve, ZOS just has to be willing to give more through gameplay that they can't monotize (like how wow is structured).

As someone who has been PVPing since 2004. Done RvRvR, PvP, Raids, Hard modes, large scale pvp, grinded titles similar to Emperor, all in a myriad of games. Cryo never appealed to me, ESO PVP in general never appealed to me, but wife and I have been in Vengence every day, for at least 6 hours. Yesterday we were in from early morning to 1 am and having a fair amount of fun.

Being more accessible, better balanced makes it easier for non-hardcore to enter. Not being 1 shot by other classes (although I was close to being 2 shot...very sus) makes it more appealing.

I sympathize with the current lot of PVPers who enjoy their builds, their "skill" and overall advantage they have over normal players and I am sure this is a ton of fun for them. But the flipside is that it's not fun being a punching bag for folks on the other side. If the hardcore want PVP to succeed and bring in more players, they will need to make compromises about how cyro is played.

Or they can keep stressing that cyro be played like it has been with a population that gets smaller and smaller every month.

Vengeance could use balances like bomber sets. But the like of ball groups has vastly improved my Cyrodiil experience personally. I'm sure a coordinated group could still do a great job of coordinating their ultimates together and farming AP in the Vengeance campaign, but not like before. Sets and morphs are what enable ball groups to do what they do.

I'm conflicted because I like making new builds and having the build options, but the overall Cyrodiil experience has been much better without all the consequences of having so many set options.

I think build choices in Vengeance would be improved if we had some more skills--even if it's nowhere near as many in regular Cyrodiil, just 4-5 more skills would help.

I have been enjoying the new test campaign the last couple of days and would like it to be a regular campaign option (not the only option) albeit not quite as scaled down as it is now.

I remember seeing the advertisement for ESO and how it described the epic PvP battles you could enjoy. And while there have been a few decent battles in Cyrodiil they have never felt that epic until now. Seeing so many players all working together has been great.

For a bit of background into the type of player I am, I have been doing casual PvP for a few years now. And in all that time I have not felt I have improved at all. I have felt like dead weight in my group as I seem to be the one that always dies first and the most frequently. I am the first to admit that I am rubbish at PvP, but when you spend most of your time trying to fight unkillable tanks who take no damage even when you drop your ultimate on them, or getting farmed by ball groups, it feels like there is no way to actually improve and get better.

Yes, I still die in the test campaign, but not anywhere near as frequently and I am at least able to put up a bit of a fight and feel like I might actually be improving rather than just dying instantly, riding back to the fight, dying again and eventually getting bored and giving up for the day. I like that my skills are actually doing some damage when I am fighting.

There are some things I do miss though that I would like to see in this campaign if it ever did become an option.

Obviously quests, interacting with merchants, skyshards, resource picking etc. Also the emperorship and hammer and scroll bonuses etc.

I miss my mount speed, oh boy do I miss my mount speed. But if it came down a choice between a slower mount or dealing with unkillable tanks, tower trolls and ball groups, I know I would sacrifice that speed in a heartbeat.

Of course it is a slippery slope when it comes to the skills (active or passive) and what should be included and what shouldn't. Because everyone wants different ones. While I might be missing alliance war skills like the passive mount speed and the siege shield and extra range morph, another player may be missing their weapon skills more.

I actually thought I would miss my armour set bonuses more than I have, so am pleasantly surprised that I can play without those.

I would not expect unlimited resources like sieges and potions as we have at the moment. I can see why that is the case for the test though since the merchants and regular inventory are disabled so you can't buy more.

For the casual PvP players, the newer ones, and those who only pop into the zone during events, I feel like this format is a lot more fun.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

1. IMO Vengence is the way to go. It severely closes the gap between super skilled and new player. A skilled player still has a massive advantage, but it's not like BG's where you can get globaled on a tank build in 2 seconds flat (first second going to lag/netcode).
2. I agree with the "what is the point in being in here" as their are no rewards. That part ZOS needs to address. If not gear, then mounts, furniture, collectables, etc.
3. Vengence also highlights who are using 3rd party cheats infinitely easier. There is little group synergy, and you can test the offending class yourself easily to see if you are hitting the same after a day of testing on the same types of targets (I know as an absolute there are people using cheats in vengence. 25k Lightning floods when I am not debuffed....I don't think so, not to mention some unkillable necromancers. The spirit mender does not keep a necro alive when they have a destruction staff, their armor up and are being beaten on by 10 people while sprinting and taking zero damage for 20 seconds...and yes I have seen it).
4. Agreed that numbers seem to be key, but I think coordination still has massive benefits. IMO, the zone should auto group you and your friends into a larger group and be given a group name (similar to battleground team names). This will help groups coordinate better. The UI could also help with this as the map could show you where they are at. OF course this would require to force your account one one faction to reduce spying. There could be some kind of reward structure or title for players who know how to lead and are willing to take the job. My biggest complaint, and a complaint I have held since the first time I tried cyrodill in 2017 was being forced into comms to get into a group. That turned my wife and I severely off from even going into the zone.
5. Vengence does not allow for "grief killing" like can happen in a BG. Where a squishy target is focused over and over by the same offending player for an easy kill. WOW made a statement years back that there should be no hard counters in game, but in ESO this is falls in the players hands and is extremely difficult to do as you can't reliably predict what you will go up against and there is no one size fits all build. With the dev currated balance and the size of the zone this becomes almost a non issue.


Vengence is certainly not perfect. Its still troublesome for folks like myself with high ping. Clicking E to enter a keep is met with nothing. Press E again, nothing. Press it again and you might finally get in. You have a horde of enemies on your tail? Spamming E to get in, gets you in and out and dead. This has happened to my wife and I more than I can count. I'd like to see a 3 second timer placed on entering a door so that you can't be put back outside immediately.

The lack of reward stucture will make this a no go zone in short time. More stuff like the writ vendor needs to be made available for AP. I mean this is not a hard problem to solve, ZOS just has to be willing to give more through gameplay that they can't monotize (like how wow is structured).

As someone who has been PVPing since 2004. Done RvRvR, PvP, Raids, Hard modes, large scale pvp, grinded titles similar to Emperor, all in a myriad of games. Cryo never appealed to me, ESO PVP in general never appealed to me, but wife and I have been in Vengence every day, for at least 6 hours. Yesterday we were in from early morning to 1 am and having a fair amount of fun.

Being more accessible, better balanced makes it easier for non-hardcore to enter. Not being 1 shot by other classes (although I was close to being 2 shot...very sus) makes it more appealing.

I sympathize with the current lot of PVPers who enjoy their builds, their "skill" and overall advantage they have over normal players and I am sure this is a ton of fun for them. But the flipside is that it's not fun being a punching bag for folks on the other side. If the hardcore want PVP to succeed and bring in more players, they will need to make compromises about how cyro is played.

Or they can keep stressing that cyro be played like it has been with a population that gets smaller and smaller every month.

Wait, so we need to handicap the super skilled who grinded to learn this game and excel? That is the worst argument I have seen in favor of this boring and barebones pvp

I think people who miss being able to kill people one on one are missing the point of Cyrodiil PvP

Your goal is to capture keeps and resources, a task designed for multiple players thus Teamwork is a requirement, if you want solo PvP then you can always go to the Imperial City.

vengeance is not balanced at all some classes are absolute ass like warden or cro
While dk/plars are OP

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Xzysts wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

1. IMO Vengence is the way to go. It severely closes the gap between super skilled and new player. A skilled player still has a massive advantage, but it's not like BG's where you can get globaled on a tank build in 2 seconds flat (first second going to lag/netcode).
2. I agree with the "what is the point in being in here" as their are no rewards. That part ZOS needs to address. If not gear, then mounts, furniture, collectables, etc.
3. Vengence also highlights who are using 3rd party cheats infinitely easier. There is little group synergy, and you can test the offending class yourself easily to see if you are hitting the same after a day of testing on the same types of targets (I know as an absolute there are people using cheats in vengence. 25k Lightning floods when I am not debuffed....I don't think so, not to mention some unkillable necromancers. The spirit mender does not keep a necro alive when they have a destruction staff, their armor up and are being beaten on by 10 people while sprinting and taking zero damage for 20 seconds...and yes I have seen it).
4. Agreed that numbers seem to be key, but I think coordination still has massive benefits. IMO, the zone should auto group you and your friends into a larger group and be given a group name (similar to battleground team names). This will help groups coordinate better. The UI could also help with this as the map could show you where they are at. OF course this would require to force your account one one faction to reduce spying. There could be some kind of reward structure or title for players who know how to lead and are willing to take the job. My biggest complaint, and a complaint I have held since the first time I tried cyrodill in 2017 was being forced into comms to get into a group. That turned my wife and I severely off from even going into the zone.
5. Vengence does not allow for "grief killing" like can happen in a BG. Where a squishy target is focused over and over by the same offending player for an easy kill. WOW made a statement years back that there should be no hard counters in game, but in ESO this is falls in the players hands and is extremely difficult to do as you can't reliably predict what you will go up against and there is no one size fits all build. With the dev currated balance and the size of the zone this becomes almost a non issue.


Vengence is certainly not perfect. Its still troublesome for folks like myself with high ping. Clicking E to enter a keep is met with nothing. Press E again, nothing. Press it again and you might finally get in. You have a horde of enemies on your tail? Spamming E to get in, gets you in and out and dead. This has happened to my wife and I more than I can count. I'd like to see a 3 second timer placed on entering a door so that you can't be put back outside immediately.

The lack of reward stucture will make this a no go zone in short time. More stuff like the writ vendor needs to be made available for AP. I mean this is not a hard problem to solve, ZOS just has to be willing to give more through gameplay that they can't monotize (like how wow is structured).

As someone who has been PVPing since 2004. Done RvRvR, PvP, Raids, Hard modes, large scale pvp, grinded titles similar to Emperor, all in a myriad of games. Cryo never appealed to me, ESO PVP in general never appealed to me, but wife and I have been in Vengence every day, for at least 6 hours. Yesterday we were in from early morning to 1 am and having a fair amount of fun.

Being more accessible, better balanced makes it easier for non-hardcore to enter. Not being 1 shot by other classes (although I was close to being 2 shot...very sus) makes it more appealing.

I sympathize with the current lot of PVPers who enjoy their builds, their "skill" and overall advantage they have over normal players and I am sure this is a ton of fun for them. But the flipside is that it's not fun being a punching bag for folks on the other side. If the hardcore want PVP to succeed and bring in more players, they will need to make compromises about how cyro is played.

Or they can keep stressing that cyro be played like it has been with a population that gets smaller and smaller every month.

Wait, so we need to handicap the super skilled who grinded to learn this game and excel? That is the worst argument I have seen in favor of this boring and barebones pvp

1. Allowing a proc set to global your oppoent is not "super skilled", in fact there is no skill involved.
2. The floor and ceiling need to be closer together if you intened for pvp to have any form of community.
3. If you are "skilled" even in the exact same gear, exact same race, exact same spells, you should still "win". I would expect someon with "skill" to welcome a balanced playfield, like professioal sports.

Lastly, I already addressed your concern in my first post. Please read them in their entirety next time.

" If the hardcore want PVP to succeed and bring in more players, they will need to make compromises about how cyro is played.

Or they can keep stressing that cyro be played like it has been with a population that gets smaller and smaller every month."

Making the entry level easier to access is fine, but not at the price of completely neutering the upper end of the progression, which is essentially what the Vengeance settings do.

KekwLord3000 wrote: »

vengeance is not balanced at all some classes are absolute ass like warden or cro
While dk/plars are OP

Vengeance DK is a little bit low with ressources)
Vengeance templar is OP