Vengeance Prediction

DestroyerPewnack · March 2025

ZOS will see the overwhelming positive feedback from the Vengeance campaign on the forums, mostly from people who have never PvP'ed in their lives.
ZOS will push to make Cyrodiil more like the Vengeance campaign, and this would not have been "just a test."
Players will quickly realize it's an incredibly boring, dumbed down version, variety killing game mode that might be fun for one week as something different and new, but is absolutely not viable as a permanent game mode.
Players will complain on the forums. Casuals will mock them. PvP will die. The end.

I hope I'm wrong, but I have a bad feeling about this. Be careful what you wish for.

Minnesinger · March 2025

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

ZOS will see the overwhelming positive feedback from the Vengeance campaign on the forums, mostly from people who have never PvP'ed in their lives.
ZOS will push to make Cyrodiil more like the Vengeance campaign, and this would not have been "just a test."
Players will quickly realize it's an incredibly boring, dumbed down version, variety killing game mode that might be fun for one week as something different and new, but is absolutely not viable as a permanent game mode.
Players will complain on the forums. Casuals will mock them. PvP will die. The end.

I hope I'm wrong, but I have a bad feeling about this. Be careful what you wish for.

I think you are wrong about it being particularly boring. The same type of boring pvp happens in a regular Cyro as well. On the contary to regular Cyro, the fights are lag free and bigger than before and they are happening around the map in Vengeance. What do you find boring about Vengeance?

ImmortalCX · March 2025

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

ZOS will see the overwhelming positive feedback from the Vengeance campaign on the forums, mostly from people who have never PvP'ed in their lives.
ZOS will push to make Cyrodiil more like the Vengeance campaign, and this would not have been "just a test."
Players will quickly realize it's an incredibly boring, dumbed down version, variety killing game mode that might be fun for one week as something different and new, but is absolutely not viable as a permanent game mode.
Players will complain on the forums. Casuals will mock them. PvP will die. The end.

I hope I'm wrong, but I have a bad feeling about this. Be careful what you wish for.

There are lots of people rotating through ESO.

New players will probably more enjoy checkers than chess.

Not that ESO pvp is chess. But you understand what I'm saying.

You are only considering long term players, not new players. The pool of potential new players is MUCH greater than the pool of old hands.

Estin · March 2025

I can see them including it as a separate campaign, but not replacing real cyrodiil. It's too basic in it's current form though, and ZOS has stated that future tests will include more skill options, and even set options. The idea behind the test is to figure out the real reason for poor performance so real cyrodiil can be fixed.

Stamicka · March 2025

They could always just have 2 campaigns, they don’t have to go all in. Vengeance is a bit too barebones I agree, but there’s lots of potential there with a few changes.

Also, Cyrodiil is big enough to have 1800 people in it at a time, when population caps are around 300 there’s too much mount riding and too many spots with no action.

Part of what makes Vengeance good is simply that it can hold like 5 or 6 times as many people as Grey Host and it still performs better. There’s action in many spots at once and the people who enjoy big battles get what they want. It’s the way Cyrodiil was designed to be.

With a few more skills, balance tweaks, and maybe allowing only pure stat based sets so that people can still make builds, Vengeance could bring Cyrodiil back to how good it was in ESO’s first few years.

ArchMikem · March 2025

As someone who has a Star on one of his characters, I don't agree. I haven't personally experienced the test Camp, but frankly anything is better than what we've had. Pretty sure the only ones really complaining are the min/maxers that spent the time and resources putting together builds with "I Win" buttons.

tsaescishoeshiner · March 2025

As a longtime PvP player, I enjoyed the Vengeance campaign and see it as very promising if it gets some more build diversity. So much is improved--the equivalence between players, the convenience of siege, the performance of combat. I still saw players 1vXing, so I can only imagine how much room for skill and diverse ways to play there will be if they took the same model and added more abilities to it. (If that's even what they're thinking).

I assumed the test was to remove as much as possible and then maybe trickle things back in. I miss my set choices, but there are so many build choices that I've learned are apparently unnecessary to enjoying PvP! Give me skill choices with as many options as normal PvP gear or proc sets, and I think I'd have just as much fun as with them, if not more with better improvement.

Xarc · March 2025

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

Players will complain on the forums. Casuals will mock them. PvP will die. The end.

DestroyerPewnack · March 2025

Minnesinger wrote: »

I think you are wrong about it being particularly boring. The same type of boring pvp happens in a regular Cyro as well. On the contary to regular Cyro, the fights are lag free and bigger than before and they are happening around the map in Vengeance. What do you find boring about Vengeance?

The lack of build variety, mostly. It is very satisfying, for example, to be able to streak through a zerg, have a few of them follow you, then turn around, prioritize targets based on squishiness, and proceed to fight them. That is impossible to do in Vengeance for many reasons, such as mobility skills having cooldowns, everyone has the same HP and resistances (including you,) and you can't build into recovery to help you take on longer fights.
In regular Cyrodiil, if we have low population, and other alliances are zerging us down, I could switch to a bomber, and give my alliance a fighting chance. Not in Vengeance, though. No access to essential bombing gear and skills.
If we are the ones doing the zerging, I could switch to healer with high recovery, and keep my teammates alive. Again, impossible in Vengeance, because there aren't enough healing abilities and recovery, and the heal targeting is severely limited and clunky.

The other thing is, I've noticed that in Vengeance mode, I'm able to take down experienced, truly veteran players in 1v1's, even though I know for a fact it would be impossible for me to do that in regular Cyrodiil. At the same time, if I go up against 2 sub-CP160 players, and all they do is spam a damaging skill, then I'm as good as dead. I don't know what it is, but seeing PvP work like this feels wrong.

Estin wrote: »

I can see them including it as a separate campaign, but not replacing real cyrodiil. It's too basic in it's current form though, and ZOS has stated that future tests will include more skill options, and even set options. The idea behind the test is to figure out the real reason for poor performance so real cyrodiil can be fixed.

I honestly understand. I see what they're trying to do. But stripping the game mode of everything that made it fun is not solving the problem; it's specifically avoiding the problem. They don't want to pay for bigger and better servers, even though that's the only real solution here.
I also don't mind them making a separate campaign for people who enjoy it. More options for everyone is a good thing. But if the new campaign is used as a stepping stone to making it the only campaign? That's what I'm predicting here, and nothing would make me happier than turning out to be wrong.

sans-culottes · March 2025

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

ZOS will see the overwhelming positive feedback from the Vengeance campaign on the forums, mostly from people who have never PvP'ed in their lives.
ZOS will push to make Cyrodiil more like the Vengeance campaign, and this would not have been "just a test."
Players will quickly realize it's an incredibly boring, dumbed down version, variety killing game mode that might be fun for one week as something different and new, but is absolutely not viable as a permanent game mode.
Players will complain on the forums. Casuals will mock them. PvP will die. The end.

I hope I'm wrong, but I have a bad feeling about this. Be careful what you wish for.

This seems like a slightly hyperbolic response to a weeklong test.

DestroyerPewnack · March 2025

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

As a longtime PvP player, I enjoyed the Vengeance campaign and see it as very promising if it gets some more build diversity. So much is improved--the equivalence between players, the convenience of siege, the performance of combat. I still saw players 1vXing, so I can only imagine how much room for skill and diverse ways to play there will be if they took the same model and added more abilities to it. (If that's even what they're thinking).

I assumed the test was to remove as much as possible and then maybe trickle things back in. I miss my set choices, but there are so many build choices that I've learned are apparently unnecessary to enjoying PvP! Give me skill choices with as many options as normal PvP gear or proc sets, and I think I'd have just as much fun as with them, if not more with better improvement.

I'm not saying I don't believe you, but I've been on every day for 4+ hours, and I haven't seen or taken part in a single successful 1vX. In my experience, the bigger group always wins. But if you're saying you saw it, then maybe it can be done, but very infrequently, and with a lot of luck.

I'm not sure how I feel about the removal of proc sets, especially since that has already been tried before with the no-CP campaigns. And those campaigns were ghost towns. Don't you think this might be one of those things that are good on paper, but just never work out in practice?

sans-culottes wrote: »

This seems like a slightly hyperbolic response to a weeklong test.

I hope so... I really do.

huskandhunger · March 2025

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

Minnesinger wrote: »

I think you are wrong about it being particularly boring. The same type of boring pvp happens in a regular Cyro as well. On the contary to regular Cyro, the fights are lag free and bigger than before and they are happening around the map in Vengeance. What do you find boring about Vengeance?

The lack of build variety, mostly. It is very satisfying, for example, to be able to streak through a zerg, have a few of them follow you, then turn around, prioritize targets based on squishiness, and proceed to fight them. That is impossible to do in Vengeance for many reasons, such as mobility skills having cooldowns, everyone has the same HP and resistances (including you,) and you can't build into recovery to help you take on longer fights.
In regular Cyrodiil, if we have low population, and other alliances are zerging us down, I could switch to a bomber, and give my alliance a fighting chance. Not in Vengeance, though. No access to essential bombing gear and skills.
If we are the ones doing the zerging, I could switch to healer with high recovery, and keep my teammates alive. Again, impossible in Vengeance, because there aren't enough healing abilities and recovery, and the heal targeting is severely limited and clunky.

The other thing is, I've noticed that in Vengeance mode, I'm able to take down experienced, truly veteran players in 1v1's, even though I know for a fact it would be impossible for me to do that in regular Cyrodiil. At the same time, if I go up against 2 sub-CP160 players, and all they do is spam a damaging skill, then I'm as good as dead. I don't know what it is, but seeing PvP work like this feels wrong.

Estin wrote: »

I can see them including it as a separate campaign, but not replacing real cyrodiil. It's too basic in it's current form though, and ZOS has stated that future tests will include more skill options, and even set options. The idea behind the test is to figure out the real reason for poor performance so real cyrodiil can be fixed.

I honestly understand. I see what they're trying to do. But stripping the game mode of everything that made it fun is not solving the problem; it's specifically avoiding the problem. They don't want to pay for bigger and better servers, even though that's the only real solution here.
I also don't mind them making a separate campaign for people who enjoy it. More options for everyone is a good thing. But if the new campaign is used as a stepping stone to making it the only campaign? That's what I'm predicting here, and nothing would make me happier than turning out to be wrong.

everyone is on an equal footing now, isn't that a nice change of pace so you can really go for the 1vX and feel rewarded for your skill now?

LadyGP · March 2025

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

ZOS will see the overwhelming positive feedback from the Vengeance campaign on the forums, mostly from people who have never PvP'ed in their lives.
ZOS will push to make Cyrodiil more like the Vengeance campaign, and this would not have been "just a test."
Players will quickly realize it's an incredibly boring, dumbed down version, variety killing game mode that might be fun for one week as something different and new, but is absolutely not viable as a permanent game mode.
Players will complain on the forums. Casuals will mock them. PvP will die. The end.

I hope I'm wrong, but I have a bad feeling about this. Be careful what you wish for.

100% think you are wrong on this. Rich, Brian, Gina... they all have said there is zero desire to make Cyro like this.

The positivity isn't coming from the lack of skills.. it's coming from the performance gains and the population increase... with a dash of minimal ball groups thrown into the mix.

I fully expect they will continue to expand on this.. rework a lot of the skills/procs so they don't hammer the server for calculations, and over time we will get back to old school Cyro with good performance. Once everything is back and good performance I'd expect them to make some new Cyro content - although that is years away IMO.

Vengence will not become the norm. They 100% know people will stop playing if so. Shoot, DC was 2bar during prime time last night because people are tired of the no skills light/heavy attack meta.

Rohamad_Ali · March 2025

ImmortalCX wrote: »

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

ZOS will see the overwhelming positive feedback from the Vengeance campaign on the forums, mostly from people who have never PvP'ed in their lives.
ZOS will push to make Cyrodiil more like the Vengeance campaign, and this would not have been "just a test."
Players will quickly realize it's an incredibly boring, dumbed down version, variety killing game mode that might be fun for one week as something different and new, but is absolutely not viable as a permanent game mode.
Players will complain on the forums. Casuals will mock them. PvP will die. The end.

I hope I'm wrong, but I have a bad feeling about this. Be careful what you wish for.

There are lots of people rotating through ESO.

New players will probably more enjoy checkers than chess.

Not that ESO pvp is chess. But you understand what I'm saying.

You are only considering long term players, not new players. The pool of potential new players is MUCH greater than the pool of old hands.

This is painfully true.

Estin · March 2025

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

I honestly understand. I see what they're trying to do. But stripping the game mode of everything that made it fun is not solving the problem; it's specifically avoiding the problem. They don't want to pay for bigger and better servers, even though that's the only real solution here.

I do believe they should upgrade the servers again, [snip]. If they just get the strongest bare metal servers available, there's no telling if the same problem will pop up again in the next couple of years, especially if they want to increase cryodiil's population cap which has been steadily increasing over the years but still not performing any better. Even if it takes 2+ years, the potential outcome of these tests finally splitting PvE from PvP everywhere but still allowing for build variety and individuality is worth it.

[edited for bashing]

DestroyerPewnack · March 2025

huskandhunger wrote: »

everyone is on an equal footing now, isn't that a nice change of pace so you can really go for the 1vX and feel rewarded for your skill now?

Regular Cyrodiil had equal footing too, in terms of having equal access to the same gear and abilities.
The difference was that there were so many options to choose from, and depending on how high up the learning curve and how skilled you were, you would know which options to go for, and how to use them effectively.
Imagine if they removed all abilities except for light attacking, and some bozo came up to you and said "hey, why don't you 1vX me now, huh? Not skilled enough? Huh? Huh?" That's sort of what you're doing now... Adorable. 😂

Estin wrote: »

I do believe they should upgrade the servers again, [snip]. If they just get the strongest bare metal servers available, there's no telling if the same problem will pop up again in the next couple of years, especially if they want to increase cryodiil's population cap which has been steadily increasing over the years but still not performing any better. Even if it takes 2+ years, the potential outcome of these tests finally splitting PvE from PvP everywhere but still allowing for build variety and individuality is worth it.

Oh, I can definitely get behind that. The game's code at this point is probably ancient, considering how old the game is, and in that world, things get outdated at a much faster rate. I tried to learn using the Godot engine for a while, and any time you look up a solution to a problem you're facing, you really need to check when the solution was posted. The older it is, the less likely it is reliable.

[edited to remove quote]

Navaac223 · March 2025

huskandhunger wrote: »

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

Minnesinger wrote: »

I think you are wrong about it being particularly boring. The same type of boring pvp happens in a regular Cyro as well. On the contary to regular Cyro, the fights are lag free and bigger than before and they are happening around the map in Vengeance. What do you find boring about Vengeance?

The lack of build variety, mostly. It is very satisfying, for example, to be able to streak through a zerg, have a few of them follow you, then turn around, prioritize targets based on squishiness, and proceed to fight them. That is impossible to do in Vengeance for many reasons, such as mobility skills having cooldowns, everyone has the same HP and resistances (including you,) and you can't build into recovery to help you take on longer fights.
In regular Cyrodiil, if we have low population, and other alliances are zerging us down, I could switch to a bomber, and give my alliance a fighting chance. Not in Vengeance, though. No access to essential bombing gear and skills.
If we are the ones doing the zerging, I could switch to healer with high recovery, and keep my teammates alive. Again, impossible in Vengeance, because there aren't enough healing abilities and recovery, and the heal targeting is severely limited and clunky.

The other thing is, I've noticed that in Vengeance mode, I'm able to take down experienced, truly veteran players in 1v1's, even though I know for a fact it would be impossible for me to do that in regular Cyrodiil. At the same time, if I go up against 2 sub-CP160 players, and all they do is spam a damaging skill, then I'm as good as dead. I don't know what it is, but seeing PvP work like this feels wrong.

Estin wrote: »

I can see them including it as a separate campaign, but not replacing real cyrodiil. It's too basic in it's current form though, and ZOS has stated that future tests will include more skill options, and even set options. The idea behind the test is to figure out the real reason for poor performance so real cyrodiil can be fixed.

I honestly understand. I see what they're trying to do. But stripping the game mode of everything that made it fun is not solving the problem; it's specifically avoiding the problem. They don't want to pay for bigger and better servers, even though that's the only real solution here.
I also don't mind them making a separate campaign for people who enjoy it. More options for everyone is a good thing. But if the new campaign is used as a stepping stone to making it the only campaign? That's what I'm predicting here, and nothing would make me happier than turning out to be wrong.

everyone is on an equal footing now, isn't that a nice change of pace so you can really go for the 1vX and feel rewarded for your skill now?

Currently, 1vX isn't possible unless it's a 1v4 at most, against players who struggle in fungal grotto because of a few reasons :
-Almost everyone has access to ranged abilities, the bane of 1vXers. On top of that, they hit really hard.

-No 1vX tool like mobility (except for sorc and maybe warden) or undo.

-No burst damage, meaning the player you're killing needs to be actively searching for the button to heal while you're slowly chipping at his healthbar. Remember the other players can also heal him (even by accident), while they're also doing enough damage to force you to find cover.

-Not enough healing. This is pretty much the main reason. Your burst heals give you like 1/7th of your health back while your enemies can hit you for half of it if you are ever more than 5m away from a rock or some other cover.

-No sustain. Every skill costs magicka and you don't have enough mag recovery. When you're zerging, you can see your ressources drop, but it's nothing a heavy attack can't fix. However, anyone who has ever tried 1vXing knows that sustain is 10× as hard when outnumbered : you need to block, roll dodge, and most importantly : use the GCD to its maximum.

So yeah, good luck killing anyone under those circumstances.. The most I've gotten was 2 kills in a 1v5, but it was on nb (pretty much the best class because it's the one that gets the closest to having burst, while having actually decent sustain), the players I killed seemed barely sentient and I got killed shortly after because any player who knows how to use a keyboard will not be killable with the low damage we have

Sarannah · March 2025

Navaac223 wrote: »

So yeah, good luck killing anyone under those circumstances.. The most I've gotten was 2 kills in a 1v5, but it was on nb (pretty much the best class because it's the one that gets the closest to having burst, while having actually decent sustain), the players I killed seemed barely sentient and I got killed shortly after because any player who knows how to use a keyboard will not be killable with the low damage we have

Seriously, that should be the absolute maximum! In my opinion, 1vsX should never have been possible. The vengeance campaign gave you a fair playing field, even being able to kill 2 of the 5 should make you feel good about your PvP skills. But that should basically be the limit of what is possible.

Personally I am not a PvPer, but did get into some 1 vs 2 fights myself, which I still won. This is probably mostly due to me being used to only using class skills already on my PvP char, while the other players had to get used to this still.

When this campaign would last longer(indefinitely), more players would get used to what skills are available, and get better with those. Fights would evolve better, like how has already happened with the normal Cyrodiil campaigns.

danko355 · March 2025

I think numbers of people participating is are already decreasing, which shows people had fun in the beginning, but such mode quickly gets boring. And you should remember this is still in the campaign with 2x AP bonus. When the mayhem is up, I think there are more people across all campaigns than right now participating in the tests.

Sarannah · March 2025

danko355 wrote: »

I think numbers of people participating is are already decreasing, which shows people had fun in the beginning, but such mode quickly gets boring. And you should remember this is still in the campaign with 2x AP bonus. When the mayhem is up, I think there are more people across all campaigns than right now participating in the tests.

You are right, as I myself have also stopped doing Cyrodiil. Due to not being a PvPer, and wanting to take advantage of the double exp event which is currently live.

Longterm, I think vengeance would be the better PvP option over the normal Cyrodiil(if we had to pick one). As vengeance more easily allows new players to flow into PvP and allows them to enjoy themselves in PvP more/longer. Allowing for more of the population to become a PvPer over time, longterm. Basically growing a more healthy PvP playerbase bit by bit, as that is what vengeance allows to happen.

Some players, like me, will never become PvPers anymore though. Did that in other games, and am totally done with that type of gameplay. Not saying I don't have fun on occassion in ESO's PvP. For example: I really liked doing the pursuits in veangeance.

Longterm, I think vengeance should be the future of PvP. Atleast in regards to growing a healthy PvP population for ESO.

Dojohoda · March 2025

My prediction for myself is that, once the test ends and it's back to normal Cyrodiil, I will miss being able to mount up within a couple minutes of a big fight.

AngryPenguin · March 2025

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

ZOS will see the overwhelming positive feedback from the Vengeance campaign on the forums, mostly from people who have never PvP'ed in their lives.
ZOS will push to make Cyrodiil more like the Vengeance campaign, and this would not have been "just a test."
Players will quickly realize it's an incredibly boring, dumbed down version, variety killing game mode that might be fun for one week as something different and new, but is absolutely not viable as a permanent game mode.
Players will complain on the forums. Casuals will mock them. PvP will die. The end.

I hope I'm wrong, but I have a bad feeling about this. Be careful what you wish for.

I believe you are exactly right with your prediction, and why I'm so leery of this whole move by ZOS since it was first announced. What you've described is already happening in this very thread.

Sarannah wrote: »

danko355 wrote: »

I think numbers of people participating is are already decreasing, which shows people had fun in the beginning, but such mode quickly gets boring. And you should remember this is still in the campaign with 2x AP bonus. When the mayhem is up, I think there are more people across all campaigns than right now participating in the tests.

You are right, as I myself have also stopped doing Cyrodiil. Due to not being a PvPer, and wanting to take advantage of the double exp event which is currently live.

Longterm, I think vengeance would be the better PvP option over the normal Cyrodiil(if we had to pick one). As vengeance more easily allows new players to flow into PvP and allows them to enjoy themselves in PvP more/longer. Allowing for more of the population to become a PvPer over time, longterm. Basically growing a more healthy PvP playerbase bit by bit, as that is what vengeance allows to happen.

Some players, like me, will never become PvPers anymore though. Did that in other games, and am totally done with that type of gameplay. Not saying I don't have fun on occassion in ESO's PvP. For example: I really liked doing the pursuits in veangeance.

Longterm, I think vengeance should be the future of PvP. Atleast in regards to growing a healthy PvP population for ESO.

Soraka · March 2025

Going to caveat this with some disclaimers as I have had little success discussing my opinion on this without people getting defensive, hostile, and personal and making assumptions. I have no ill opinion or judgement of people who like this mode. Please try to refrain from assuming anyone who doesn't like it is "clutching on proc sets", "only a ballgrouper" or "can't play when it's only skill". I don't have to be good to have an opinion, and I've never played a day in a ballgroup.

I agree with OP. As someone who has played pvp a lot, this got mind numbing pretty quickly. Not saying I'm super great at pvp, but with experience in the basics and years to practice and continue to "grow" in pvp, my perception is that the ceiling has effectively been moved so low there is not much to keep my mind engaged. I can watch TV, have a conversation, space out and push buttons kinda automatically and do just fine. I legitimately feel the lack of cognitive work I have to do. I got sleepy, like road hypnosis when driving. I haven't seen a lot of room for variation in tactics etc just perpetual keep after keep with some long fights where people get into a stalemate in doorways. I feel like some things have been lost. The "only rely on skill now" window seems to be very small and then it turns into only rely on numbers and what class is best.

I recognize this is new and feels more approachable for those who are new and don't have as much experience. They're probably still at the cognitively engaged stage and there's nothing wrong with that. But I suspect eventually everyone would hit the 'ok but now what?' stage. I also don't agree that this type of mode would be free from toxicity. I also wish the arguments wouldn't boil down to its lag or this so I have to like it. I can not like this and wish ZOS could balance better and fix lag. I dislike the idea this would be the only solution.

I think there's a place for this type of mode, particularly for training Cyrodiil basics. But I am afraid this will become the only option. I also suspect that maybe it was also a mindset issue keeping people out of PvP in the first place. I've read so many assumptions and accusations about how PvP is from people who never tried. Part of this is the IDEA and beliefs that pvers and new players are welcome now. It took pressure off and new people love it. The simplification does help, but I can't help but wonder if more had tried it without the negative bias in the first place maybe they could have learned and stuck around before too. As someone who used to be pretty "carebear and sensitive" (labeling myself not making any comment or label on people enjoying Vengeance), I've always found the majority of Cyrodiil players to be very welcoming.

AngryPenguin · March 2025

danko355 wrote: »

I think numbers of people participating is are already decreasing, which shows people had fun in the beginning, but such mode quickly gets boring. And you should remember this is still in the campaign with 2x AP bonus. When the mayhem is up, I think there are more people across all campaigns than right now participating in the tests.

Yes. There was a 5 min queue last night during NA prime time. Guilds have already cancelled normally scheduled raids until the end of the event etc. People are already bored of just running in massive zergs from one objective to the next. Virtually can't solo a resource anymore either. The guards are too strong and heal too fast for a single player to compete with resource guards. ....but the casual PvE community loves this mode for now because there is no learning curve. Just follow the zerg and smash some buttons.

It's already plain to see how this "test" is going to go and what the results will be. That's why ZOS focused on this entirely new game mode instead of making fixes to the game mode they already had.

AngryPenguin · March 2025

ImmortalCX wrote: »

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

ZOS will see the overwhelming positive feedback from the Vengeance campaign on the forums, mostly from people who have never PvP'ed in their lives.
ZOS will push to make Cyrodiil more like the Vengeance campaign, and this would not have been "just a test."
Players will quickly realize it's an incredibly boring, dumbed down version, variety killing game mode that might be fun for one week as something different and new, but is absolutely not viable as a permanent game mode.
Players will complain on the forums. Casuals will mock them. PvP will die. The end.

I hope I'm wrong, but I have a bad feeling about this. Be careful what you wish for.

There are lots of people rotating through ESO.

New players will probably more enjoy checkers than chess.

Not that ESO pvp is chess. But you understand what I'm saying.

You are only considering long term players, not new players. The pool of potential new players is MUCH greater than the pool of old hands.

It's the vets and daily players that pay the bills. Not the occasional new player. After 11 years most everyone who might give ESO a try already has.

AngryPenguin · March 2025

LadyGP wrote: »

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

ZOS will see the overwhelming positive feedback from the Vengeance campaign on the forums, mostly from people who have never PvP'ed in their lives.
ZOS will push to make Cyrodiil more like the Vengeance campaign, and this would not have been "just a test."
Players will quickly realize it's an incredibly boring, dumbed down version, variety killing game mode that might be fun for one week as something different and new, but is absolutely not viable as a permanent game mode.
Players will complain on the forums. Casuals will mock them. PvP will die. The end.

I hope I'm wrong, but I have a bad feeling about this. Be careful what you wish for.

100% think you are wrong on this. Rich, Brian, Gina... they all have said there is zero desire to make Cyro like this.

The positivity isn't coming from the lack of skills.. it's coming from the performance gains and the population increase... with a dash of minimal ball groups thrown into the mix.

I fully expect they will continue to expand on this.. rework a lot of the skills/procs so they don't hammer the server for calculations, and over time we will get back to old school Cyro with good performance. Once everything is back and good performance I'd expect them to make some new Cyro content - although that is years away IMO.

Vengence will not become the norm. They 100% know people will stop playing if so. Shoot, DC was 2bar during prime time last night because people are tired of the no skills light/heavy attack meta.

Do Rich, Brian and Gina get the final word on this? I don't think they do. Upper management makes these decisions based on cost/benefit calculations.

Plus, the gap between what we've been promised and told over the years just keeps getting wider and wider compared to what actually happens. A few years ago the PvP community endured a couple months of horribly excruciating "tests" with the only end result being a lowering of the population cap yet again. ZOS has a poor track record of turning these "tests" into something positive for the player base.

Tinkerhorn · March 2025

I agree with the OP and am inclined to suspect the fear may come true. If it does then overnight ESO will go from one of the most engaging and interesting MMO PvP games albeit with its warts and boils, to one of the most boring and shallow. The immediate effect would be to cleave a huge chunk of the 'old guard' out of the game and I do believe PvP would over a matter of a few months suffer an unrecoverable lack of engagement.
A lot of people seem to hold the current 'hardcore' playerbase of PvP with quite a bit of contempt and sneering and would quite keenly see PvP altered in a way which completely removes them but changing PvP which removes/mutes them does not automatically make for a good PvP game. Vengeance needs to remain as a test because it's not fit to be a 'fix'.

AngryPenguin · March 2025

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

Minnesinger wrote: »

I think you are wrong about it being particularly boring. The same type of boring pvp happens in a regular Cyro as well. On the contary to regular Cyro, the fights are lag free and bigger than before and they are happening around the map in Vengeance. What do you find boring about Vengeance?

The lack of build variety, mostly. It is very satisfying, for example, to be able to streak through a zerg, have a few of them follow you, then turn around, prioritize targets based on squishiness, and proceed to fight them. That is impossible to do in Vengeance for many reasons, such as mobility skills having cooldowns, everyone has the same HP and resistances (including you,) and you can't build into recovery to help you take on longer fights.
In regular Cyrodiil, if we have low population, and other alliances are zerging us down, I could switch to a bomber, and give my alliance a fighting chance. Not in Vengeance, though. No access to essential bombing gear and skills.
If we are the ones doing the zerging, I could switch to healer with high recovery, and keep my teammates alive. Again, impossible in Vengeance, because there aren't enough healing abilities and recovery, and the heal targeting is severely limited and clunky.

The other thing is, I've noticed that in Vengeance mode, I'm able to take down experienced, truly veteran players in 1v1's, even though I know for a fact it would be impossible for me to do that in regular Cyrodiil. At the same time, if I go up against 2 sub-CP160 players, and all they do is spam a damaging skill, then I'm as good as dead. I don't know what it is, but seeing PvP work like this feels wrong.

Estin wrote: »

I can see them including it as a separate campaign, but not replacing real cyrodiil. It's too basic in it's current form though, and ZOS has stated that future tests will include more skill options, and even set options. The idea behind the test is to figure out the real reason for poor performance so real cyrodiil can be fixed.

I honestly understand. I see what they're trying to do. But stripping the game mode of everything that made it fun is not solving the problem; it's specifically avoiding the problem. They don't want to pay for bigger and better servers, even though that's the only real solution here.
I also don't mind them making a separate campaign for people who enjoy it. More options for everyone is a good thing. But if the new campaign is used as a stepping stone to making it the only campaign? That's what I'm predicting here, and nothing would make me happier than turning out to be wrong.

Again, I share your assessment. Most of us who've been around for more than a decade can see the writing on the wall.

Einstein_ · March 2025

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

ZOS will see the overwhelming positive feedback from the Vengeance campaign on the forums, mostly from people who have never PvP'ed in their lives.
ZOS will push to make Cyrodiil more like the Vengeance campaign, and this would not have been "just a test."
Players will quickly realize it's an incredibly boring, dumbed down version, variety killing game mode that might be fun for one week as something different and new, but is absolutely not viable as a permanent game mode.
Players will complain on the forums. Casuals will mock them. PvP will die. The end.

I hope I'm wrong, but I have a bad feeling about this. Be careful what you wish for.

perfect summary, i just wanted to write that on my own...

sans-culottes · March 2025

AngryPenguin wrote: »

danko355 wrote: »

I think numbers of people participating is are already decreasing, which shows people had fun in the beginning, but such mode quickly gets boring. And you should remember this is still in the campaign with 2x AP bonus. When the mayhem is up, I think there are more people across all campaigns than right now participating in the tests.

Yes. There was a 5 min queue last night during NA prime time. Guilds have already cancelled normally scheduled raids until the end of the event etc. People are already bored of just running in massive zergs from one objective to the next. Virtually can't solo a resource anymore either. The guards are too strong and heal too fast for a single player to compete with resource guards. ....but the casual PvE community loves this mode for now because there is no learning curve. Just follow the zerg and smash some buttons.

It's already plain to see how this "test" is going to go and what the results will be. That's why ZOS focused on this entirely new game mode instead of making fixes to the game mode they already had.

Yes, it’s plain to see that after the week is over this mode will be kaput. The hyperbolic readers of tea leaves should maybe shelve their prognostications for now.

SolarRune · March 2025

I've really enjoyed Vengeance, and while I'd love to see it as a PvP format, ZoS has made it clear that this is purely a diagnostic test. There's no need to worry that Vengeance in its current form will become permanent and this is just them deliberately stripping things back to try and work out where lag is being created.

Looking at the impact of simplified skills and fixed builds, it seems evident that the normal campaign is putting excessive strain on the game engine, which is likely the root cause of the lag—something that has been the biggest complaint for the past four years. From this testing week it would appear to solve the lag issue, there would need to be a change to something around how skills and/or how sets operate in PVP - but again separate balancing is something that has been asked for years - so if it does happen, we are only getting what we as players have repeatedly asked for.

As for concerns about player drop-off, that was expected, given the golden pursuit incentive. However, estimates suggest the campaign is accommodating three to five times more players than usual. The fact that there’s still a queue, despite the limited build variety, is actually impressive and indicates that many players are still enjoying this format more than the traditional Cyrodiil experience.