New EU-Act: Possible ingame-store and sales changes incoming?

said no one ever · March 26

also are there many youngins playing this game? i'm fairly certain the 30+ crowd hold a secure majority. i'm niot sure we'd notice much if the 18 and under crowd were excluded from the game.

DenverRalphy · March 26

Toanis wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

[Except that you can't calculate a discounted value without set variables. The price of crowns changes depending on how many you purchase and from which source across different markets. Crowns come from ESO+ subscribtion too. Should the price of the ESO+ subscription change to account for it?

The house is worth $127,84. You can get a discount of up to 25% by buying it via the big crown packs. There would be more of an issue with 2 packs of 5500 crowns not being quite enough to buy the house...

So you expect ZOS to discount all items based on how many crowns they normally cost? That's not happening. ZOS gives discounts to players who buy in bulk. Not discounts to players who "could have" or "might have" bought in bulk.

ZOS places whatever value on their purchasables they deem it is worth. They're not going to even pretend to predict or determine which crown packages the player would have purchased to apply any discounts. And they're not going to tell the whole Non-EU playerbase that EU players will get everything at the cheapest possible solution.

Eliahnus · March 26

Since already a couple of years we cannot buy any crown crates anymore; I live in Belgium.
Apparently the EU thinks that only kids play games.

Ratzkifal · March 26

Eliahnus wrote: »

Since already a couple of years we cannot buy any crown crates anymore; I live in Belgium.
Apparently the EU thinks that only kids play games.

That's not it at all. The EU thinks that selling something to both adults and kids should only be possible if child protection laws apply. Belgium specifically thinks that ZOS should follow their gambling laws, since lootboxes are essentially the same as slot machines and children aren't allowed into casinos either. And since ZOS won't kick out the children, the slot machines/lootboxes gotta go.

Again, ESO is not rated 18 in all countries. In Germany ESO is rated 16, while gambling in Germany is 18+, but Germany also hasn't recognized lootboxes to be gambling, so for now ZOS can continue to sell lootboxes to teens.

Amottica · March 26

I do not think the linked article is being represented accurately. Just my opinion but it is based on the following.

The opening statement of that article does not mention any rule was passed this week. Instead it says "the CPC Network is presenting today key principles to help the gaming industry comply with the EU consumer protection rules related to in-game virtual currencies." The article does state the related protection agency in coordination with the EC did publish a set of guidelines which would seem to tie into working to help the industry comply with the existing EU rules.

Further, the opening statement of that article says the named consumer protection agency is launching an enforcement action against a very specific company, Star Stable Entertainment AB, and their Star Stable Online game.

There is no mention of passing of a new rule in the past couple days or even recent new rules. It is merely helping to make existing rules clear for the industry and enforce the rules with a specific company.

So no new rules that Zenimax or Microsoft need to take into consideration.

Lumsdenml · March 26

Tazzy wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

This is annoying. This is an M rated game and nothing in the cash shop gives any actual advantage in the game. Let us be adults, take responsibility for our own actions, and quit regulating things like this.

I remember a post (I can't remember whether it was in the English or German forum) where a gambling addict made an urgent request to ZOS to block the Crown Shop for him, because he simply couldn't resist the Crown Crates. It is not so easy for such people to take responsibility for their actions. I'm not in favor of top-down regulation either, but there should be an option to have yourself banned from the crown store. Unfortunately, I don't know what happened with that request.

I'm not against something you opt in for (or out of, depending on how your look at it) but it it shouldn't be required by a governmental agency.

Lumsdenml · March 26

Northwold wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

This is annoying. This is an M rated game and nothing in the cash shop gives any actual advantage in the game. Let us be adults, take responsibility for our own actions, and quit regulating things like this.

I'm not sure how being an adult prevents gambling addiction?

It doesnt, but it does make you responsible for yourself.

Lumsdenml · March 26

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

This is annoying. This is an M rated game and nothing in the cash shop gives any actual advantage in the game. Let us be adults, take responsibility for our own actions, and quit regulating things like this.

Reminder: ESO is not an "M rated game" everywhere in the world.

Really? Where is it not? (Honest question, from my understanding it is).

Kessra · March 26

Amottica wrote: »

So no new rules that Zenimax or Microsoft need to take into consideration.

Yes, the enforcment measure primarily targets Star Stable for using bad marketing practices on especially children. But the linked article comes with a list of key principles EU wants to see implemented by game companies.

The linked article further contains this phrase

The European Commission will be hosting a workshop where gaming companies operating in the EU will be encouraged to present concrete steps, they will take to implement these key principles. The CPC Network will monitor progress and may take further actions if harmful practices continue.

which can be seen as measurement to get game developers/companies up to the same "ethical" standards or EU will apply further actions if game developers do not adhere to these principles. As such, this case can be regarded as precedent case that may or may not lead to further more strict regulations if needed.

Kessra · March 26

Lumsdenml wrote: »

Where is it not?

According to this link 16 in Germany and 14 in Brazil.

spartaxoxo · March 26

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Again, ESO is not rated 18 in all countries. In Germany ESO is rated 16, while gambling in Germany is 18+, but Germany also hasn't recognized lootboxes to be gambling, so for now ZOS can continue to sell lootboxes to teens.

Yup. Additionally, an "M" rating doesn't mean "kids can't play this game," in every country that gives it an M rating. In the USA, for example, kids can purchase and play M games. Many retailers voluntarily enforce restrictions on sales of these games to minors but there is no law requiring it.

The Elder Scrolls Online likely has plenty of minors playing right now and will into the foreseeable future.

Kappachi · March 27

Tandor wrote: »

Or will they simply add the EU member states to the list of countries that are excluded from certain aspects of the game? We see that regularly with competitions and raffles etc.

Yea, EU is way lower population than NA afaik as well, so they could just be barred from crown store but still be given a way to outright pay for DLCs in straight currency like $15 each if need be.

DenverRalphy · March 27

I'm not insinuating or suggesting anything here.. Just ruminating.

But how messed up would it be if the outcome of this decision is what's holding back the current DLC release to the crown store?

WhiteScythe · March 27

Lumsdenml wrote: »

This is annoying. This is an M rated game and nothing in the cash shop gives any actual advantage in the game. Let us be adults, take responsibility for our own actions, and quit regulating things like this.

The crown store is predatory.

Lumsdenml · March 27

WhiteScythe wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

This is annoying. This is an M rated game and nothing in the cash shop gives any actual advantage in the game. Let us be adults, take responsibility for our own actions, and quit regulating things like this.

The crown store is predatory.

It's not. Nothing in the Crown store is required.

Trier_Sero · March 27

Lumsdenml wrote: »

It's not. Nothing in the Crown store is required.

Of course it is with all those limited time offers.

licenturion · March 27

I have no idea why a large part of the gaming or tech community always springs to the rescue for billion or trillion valued companies. You are the customer and you do not have to defend their bottom line unless you are a big shareholder.

The only thing this law requires is that instead of crowns, the actual price is displayed per item and the item can be purchased without being forced to spend more. This is more transparent and an improvement for the consumer by not obfuscating the real price. When you display real prices you can still do sales on individual products, bundles or a general sale on all stuff in the store.

So how people can be against something that benefits consumers is really beyond me. This is really 2 lines of code to convert the price of an item to a currency. I have converted prices myself in the past to see if something is worth it.

In gaming this has become the norm and some games have 10 currencies. Imagine if every supermarket had their own currency system and didn't accept anything else, how fun would that be. It is great there are rules coming for all this crap. And I see the loot box laws some countries have also being expanded at some point.

hafjoldr · March 27

licenturion wrote: »

I have no idea why a large part of the gaming or tech community always springs to the rescue for billion or trillion valued companies. You are the customer and you do not have to defend their bottom line unless you are a big shareholder.

I believe it's less about defending bottom lines as it is defending content production of live service games and personal freedoms of the clients. As it happens, if you prohibit selling cosmetics in a game, companies won't produce them. I very much like my fashion in ESO. As for freedom of clients, well, it's just looking at it another way. I want to purchase cosmetics in a game, and it doesn't hurt anyone any more than selling makeup, so it seems rather unfair and arbitrary to let companies sell makeup, but not in-game armor skins, affecting my enjoyment of the game for literally stuff that should be taken care of by doctors and parents.

Addictions are a disease, and not a contagious one. That begs the question: why do they treat cancer or depression in hospitals and homes, but for addictions it's better to just go for a prohibition?

In-game cosmetics are just an example, but I'd rather not have P2W in games, and it's kind of the alternative. Aside from live service games going back to subscription models or plainly go bankrupt.

EDIT: And just to reiterate, it's not about what they're doing now with the law. It's about the obvious next step in that line of thought. WHat do you all think will happen when these measures don't stop children from allegedly stealing credit cards or whatever triggered this.

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I'm not insinuating or suggesting anything here.. Just ruminating.

But how messed up would it be if the outcome of this decision is what's holding back the current DLC release to the crown store?

It would be crazy, but at this rate I see the EU prohibiting expansions as well in the near future.

msetten · March 27

I can't imagine that the EU rules would prohibit crowns from being sold at discounted prices, as long as the euro prices shown for items are always based on the normal regular crown/euro rate. If someone bought the crowns at a discounted price, that is just beneficial for the player.

Tra_Lalan · March 27

I guess there is litteraly nothing that ESO players wount complain about.

This regulation is to protect your consumer rights. For example give you the right to return a crownstore purchase if you are not satisfied with it.

The fact that it forces the company to show the actual item prize doesn't mean there will be no discounts (you just show the previous price in crowns and EUR/USD, and then the current price in crowns and EUR/USD).

ZOS and other companies would just have to adapt their current systems to fulfill the new requirements. Crown store makes them to much profit to just abandon it in EU.

WaywardArgonian · March 27

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Doubtful. The people who pay for crowns know exactly how much they're paying for them. It's not like the cost is hidden or anything.

If virtual currencies wouldn't be effective at making people less aware of the true cost of an item, they wouldn't exist. A huge amount of scientific research has been done into the effectiveness of decoupling virtual items from real-world monetary value.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · March 27

Considering all that needs to be added is the price calculated in real un 'discounted' values as well as an option to buy that specific amount of crowns for that value I don't think the change is a huge one so likely will just be implemented.

The timeframe of implementation might be more of an issue and probs will be left as late as possible.

Edit: actually as well as the crown side of things the biggest change would be in the crown gem system so that might take some time to implement a way of buying crown gems and then displaying the real price of gems etc. (because of the clause about multiple different currency conversion systems).

zaria · March 27

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

The EU enforcement is a good thing for gaming in general as for gamers. It's not meant to block microtransactions but to make them the good way they should have always been, and not the predatory mess they've always been.

I really hope Zos will embrace these guidelines and adapt the store accordingly. To us, would only be a benefit.

Maybe, maybe not. Depends on how the enforcement goes. Based on what I read these are guidelines and arnt enforced unless it's extreme violation and flagrant abuse. But we will see.

This is the type of action though that zos likely won't directly handle. This will come down from Microsoft as it impacts every monetized Xbox owned game, and ZOS is a subsidiary of. This could be a nothing burger, or it could lead to an extreme response with many games and services just not being available in the EU. It very well could happen that EU could be blocked from buying crowns as an end result and being required to make all item purchases with irl cash. Blocking gifting, among other things.

For ESO I think quick fixes will be adjusting crown store items prices and crown packages, then show cost in $ or € on items.

One thing who could be an problem is refunding crowns and eso+.
One directive was that virtual currency could be refunded but this only applies to bought one not currency earned in game or part of deals like ESO+. It need to be some accounting for this.
So some adjustment needed

Toanis · March 27

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Toanis wrote: »

The house is worth $127,84. You can get a discount of up to 25% by buying it via the big crown packs. There would be more of an issue with 2 packs of 5500 crowns not being quite enough to buy the house...

So you expect ZOS to discount all items based on how many crowns they normally cost? That's not happening. ZOS gives discounts to players who buy in bulk. Not discounts to players who "could have" or "might have" bought in bulk.

*I* don't expect ZOS to do anything. A legislative body representing a market of about 500 million consumers is reminding the member countries that they agreed upon implementing such laws almost a decade ago.

To comply, ZOS only needs to change the price tag from "12000 crowns" to "12000 crowns ($127,84)". That's it.

If they want to make it overly complicated and show not the maximum price but the actual money each player spent to get the 12000 crowns (and pay lawyers to defend this practice against accusations of price obfuscation), then that's up to ZOS.

Any discounts are done when buying the crowns in bulk and have no impact on the real money value on game price tag.

Lumsdenml · March 27

Trier_Sero wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

It's not. Nothing in the Crown store is required.

Of course it is with all those limited time offers.

Limited time is not predatory. Choose to buy it or don't. People should take responsibility for themselves, not blame other people.

Trier_Sero · March 27

Lumsdenml wrote: »

Trier_Sero wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

It's not. Nothing in the Crown store is required.

Of course it is with all those limited time offers.

Limited time is not predatory. Choose to buy it or don't. People should take responsibility for themselves, not blame other people.

Yes it is. Taking responsibility for oneself has nothing to do with when company is forcing me to buy it now or they will remove it, maybe for years, despite it not taking up any space in a DIGITAL store.

Northwold · March 27

Lumsdenml wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

This is annoying. This is an M rated game and nothing in the cash shop gives any actual advantage in the game. Let us be adults, take responsibility for our own actions, and quit regulating things like this.

I'm not sure how being an adult prevents gambling addiction?

It doesnt, but it does make you responsible for yourself.

Well, so would legalising cocaine. That doesn't make it desirable.

<snip>

Veering slightly off topic but if you read up on gambling addiction and the like a lot of experts will tell you it's worse than all the rest because of the sheer amount of irreversible damage you can do. With drugs you can stop (if you don't die). But gambling, the money doesn't come back. I think people here are trivialising an issue that is actually rather serious through lack of understanding.

<snipped for Inappropriate Content quote>

Lumsdenml · March 27

Trier_Sero wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

Trier_Sero wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

It's not. Nothing in the Crown store is required.

Of course it is with all those limited time offers.

Limited time is not predatory. Choose to buy it or don't. People should take responsibility for themselves, not blame other people.

Yes it is. Taking responsibility for oneself has nothing to do with when company is forcing me to buy it now or they will remove it, maybe for years, despite it not taking up any space in a DIGITAL store.

That is the problem, the word FORCE. Zos is not forcing you to do anything. Not getting a cool mount does not inhibit your ability to play the game. If you have 1 mount or 70, you can still play. ZOS isn't forcing anything.

Lumsdenml · March 27

Northwold wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

This is annoying. This is an M rated game and nothing in the cash shop gives any actual advantage in the game. Let us be adults, take responsibility for our own actions, and quit regulating things like this.

I'm not sure how being an adult prevents gambling addiction?

It doesnt, but it does make you responsible for yourself.

Well, so would legalising cocaine. That doesn't make it desirable.

An apex mount is not cocaine. There are many other issues with an illegal drug that a mount in eso....

Veering slightly off topic but if you read up on gambling addiction and the like a lot of experts will tell you it's worse than all the rest because of the sheer amount of irreversible damage you can do. With drugs you can stop (if you don't die). But gambling, the money doesn't come back. I think people here are trivialising an issue that is actually rather serious through lack of understanding.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not downplaying the issues of gambling addiction. I understand the ramifications, but how much responsibility are you going to put on a company for someone's personal problem? If zos were to put something in the Crown Crates like a mythic item that was op and had a 0.001% drop rate, I'd agree that was predatory and just sleazy. But they aren't doing that.

If someone has a predilection to a gambling addiction, I feel that it is their own responsibility to stay safe and take the necessary steps to keep themselves healthy, even if that means not playing the game at all.

Treeshka · March 27

Probably what i am going to say has no impact on this topic. While at it, all Crown Store exclusive items should not show up in the player's collectables tab.

Current Dancer personality is being shown there. Certain styles for weapons are still shown in Outfits page. This is not good in my opinion and tricks people to buy them.