A solution for the Healer/DD meta. Healing and damage should scale inversely.

xylena_lazarow · March 20

Kartalin wrote: »

Defiles can definitely help when you have a full group backing you up

In other words, only 1% minmax comp groups have the luxury of being able to fit niche debuffs that are a waste of build space for the 99% of solo/smallscale/zerg players who need general builds and actually keep this game alive.

Major_Mangle · March 20

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

show previous quotes

Kartalin wrote: »

Defiles can definitely help when you have a full group backing you up

In other words, only 1% minmax comp groups have the luxury of being able to fit niche debuffs that are a waste of build space for the 99% of solo/smallscale/zerg players who need general builds and actually keep this game alive.

Wdym, my super nische/specific build also works tremendously well when I´ve 11 other people backing me up /s

Kartalin · March 20

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

show previous quotes

Kartalin wrote: »

Defiles can definitely help when you have a full group backing you up

In other words, only 1% minmax comp groups have the luxury of being able to fit niche debuffs that are a waste of build space for the 99% of solo/smallscale/zerg players who need general builds and actually keep this game alive.

Right, precisely what I had said in sentence two of my previous post

Kartalin wrote: »

But this is yet another bit of flexibility that ball groups can enjoy that solos or smaller scale groups can't as easily make use of.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · March 20

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

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Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

If you mean about splitting damage to weapon dmg and healing to resources then I think its perfectly possible to do and would be a better system. In fact we used to have a viable system in place (Soft caps). Players could still choose to be more bursty or more supportive in their playstyles but also had to balance their stats for the most part (which made resources be the main issue).

Better would be subjective. It would be a different game if you rigidly separate healing and damage like that.

I said 'I think' it would be better yeh, no one would know for sure until it was tried on live. We can disagree about whether softcaps enforced a more 'balanced' approach to builds, my take is that it encouraged players to split their values between different areas e.g. you wanted both magicka and spell damage because just going all in on spell damage was capped which functionally enforced a split - also at the time shields were a huge thing and they only scaled from magicka.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

show previous quotes

Kartalin wrote: »

Defiles can definitely help when you have a full group backing you up

In other words, only 1% minmax comp groups have the luxury of being able to fit niche debuffs that are a waste of build space for the 99% of solo/smallscale/zerg players who need general builds and actually keep this game alive.

The game was never more alive than when large guild groups (multiple 24m's etc) were playing, by most peoples standards they would call these groups 'ball groups' these days i've personally never really agreed with that and back in the early days we used to call the style of play that we ran in Drac 'Bomb groups' whose aim was to kill the zergy 24m+ 'ball groups' that did not thing but run around in a huge ball on top of crown spamming impulse and springs etc.

Solo/smallscale never kept the game alive and it was trying to cater to them (with poorly managed changes from ZOS admittedly) in combination with the horrendous lag which drove away these huge guilds that supported introducing hundreds of new players to pvp. For example I remember fighting Crow's 72m 6 years ago, the game certainly didn't feel dead then and there were loads more ball groups in the game.

The problem of 12m groups now is that they have become these new 'zerg 24m' groups that they used to fight mainly because of the group size change and the overall population caps being vastly decreased which makes it nowhere near as fun to play - as well as some questionable gearsets and hybridisation.

dark_hunterxmg · March 20

Kartalin wrote: »

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dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Defiles definitely don't solve any of the problem. I'm a Werewolf main and I can say for certain that 1: Defile claws barely make a dent in other players healing capacity and 2: A solo werewolf is not enjoying anything. :'D

It's like you read my first sentence and then stopped there to reply. Defiles can definitely help when you have a full group backing you up.

I was agreeing with you on both points in my reply.

Kartalin · March 20

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

show previous quotes

Kartalin wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Defiles definitely don't solve any of the problem. I'm a Werewolf main and I can say for certain that 1: Defile claws barely make a dent in other players healing capacity and 2: A solo werewolf is not enjoying anything. :'D

It's like you read my first sentence and then stopped there to reply. Defiles can definitely help when you have a full group backing you up.

I was agreeing with you on both points in my reply.

All good, I just didn't quite catch that from the response. Here's a video of our 6-8 person group with werewolf lead if you're interested

xylena_lazarow · March 20

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Solo/smallscale never kept the game alive

That's what zergs are made of, and zergs are what keep it alive. Those multi 24s aren't comp groups, probably a guild core, but mostly random solo zergers joining for structure and direction, who go back to solo zerg surfing when the raid ends. Definitely with you that 24 to 12 was awful. Big enough for pug stomping, too small to prevent pug stomping.

buzzclops · March 21

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

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Wallar333 wrote: »

Funny you choosed NB for this topic bro which sucks as a PVP healer

It really, really doesn't lol.

Indeed it doesn’t. Nightblade is by far the best healer for raw hps in PvP. They have some of the best utility skills aswell as mass hysteria to relieve pressure from themselves without needing peels.

Kartalin · March 21

Literally the only argument against nightblades as pvp healers is they don’t provide any useful damage synergies for allies

Iriidius · March 22

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Not looking for trinity style pvp. I'm talking about balance. Healing is way over tuned. It goes for cross heals from damage dealers and self heals for damage dealers. Healing should not scale upward with weapon damage. A single player can be 50% healer, 50% damage dealer, and be 100% great at both.

A single player also should be 100% great at both and has to be because he has to do both because if he does only one nobody is doing the other one for him. But he is not 100% great at both because to dmg he has to stack also penetration and %dmg done that are useless for healing where he has to stack %healing.
In a group only the healers have to be 100% great at healing and only the dds 100% great at dealing damage for the group to be 100% great at both.
You say you are not looking for trinity style PvP but trinity style or duality style PvP is the result if player can not heal and deal dmg.

Iriidius · March 22

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

So many people talk about the healing problem, the tank problem, the shield problem, yet not many actually want to give up any of that for some real balancing. As it turns out, players want to be able to do everything solo in this multi-player game. Scribing has made this worse.

Most of the players talking about these problems do not mean the ability to deal dmg and heal on a single character and preventing that would not solve their problem.
Hardened Ward already scales from maximum magicka only and players ask to nerf magicka stacking despite it beeing totally not viable without hardened ward.
Tank problem also has to do with high mitigation/hp
players with hp scaling heals. Alikr duells usually last short between full dmg players but in Cyrodiil players do not want to kill alone but stalemate until their friends come.
Healers and Shielders dont contribute to healing and shielding problem less than dds/soloplayer.
Players complain about other players healing/shielding beeing too strong no matter if they scale with hp, mag/stam, wpndmg or nothing.

Beeing able to deal dmg and heal solo totally doesnt mean you are able to do everything solo.
However not beeing able to deal dmg and heal solo
means you are able to do nothing solo and need a group with healer and dd for everything.

Who could have thought that in the online spinoff and in absence of es6 also successor of solo rpg elder scrolls gameseries players recruited from solo rpgs want to be able to „do everything solo“ or actually at least deal dmg and selfheal.
Even in groups most players prefer to selfheal and deal dmg not just because everyone can keep their solobuild and avoid situations where group is only dds or only healers but also because it is more fun.
Even with selfheal PvP is barely soloplayable when every group attacks soloplayers on sight.
If they cant find most players rather leave or try on other faction than play solo.

Iriidius · March 22

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

show previous quotes

AngryNecro wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

So many people talk about the healing problem, the tank problem, the shield problem, yet not many actually want to give up any of that for some real balancing. As it turns out, players want to be able to do everything solo in this multi-player game. Scribing has made this worse.

Well, I personally don't see the problem of the tank and the shield. But if you cut off the whole heall half of the classes will lack it, and then a more serious imbalance will begin. In the matter of heall, it is necessary to correct only coss-heall, and i think only on BG

The stacking of self heals is a problem too. A damage dealer packing 5k/s+ HoT and a 10k burst heal is excessive.

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

No single heal is the culprit here. It's the stacking of heals. We already have a reduction with battle spirit but when heals can be stacked, it is easily overcome. That is why I suggest damage output being reduced when total healing capacity of the player is increased. "Full damage" players are in reality more like 40-50% healers.

I understand why some wouldn't want to make a change. Power would have to be given up. This multi-player game glorifies solo play above all others. Making a change like this would cause solo play to be more difficult in favor of encouraging group play and game balance.

That would hurt solo players more than ballgroup dds as solo have to slot more healing skills while still doing less healing. Selfhealing doesnt make players a healer, every healer healing only himself would get removed from group for beeing fakehealer.

ESO totally not glorifies solo play above all other playstiles and if ZOS did it would be their right as it is a spinoff of a sologame and servers do not force ESO to force everyone play in group.
Solo play is already difficult and often impossible while group play is already encouraged enough.
Nobody is PvPing solo because it is so effektive. Most remaining solo players are solo because they cant join a group. Almost all 1vXer have left the game or joined groups, the rest has principles.
More people would group if better grouping tools and 24man PuGs existed.

dark_hunterxmg · March 22

Iriidius wrote: »

show previous quotes

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

So many people talk about the healing problem, the tank problem, the shield problem, yet not many actually want to give up any of that for some real balancing. As it turns out, players want to be able to do everything solo in this multi-player game. Scribing has made this worse.

Most of the players talking about these problems do not mean the ability to deal dmg and heal on a single character and preventing that would not solve their problem.
Hardened Ward already scales from maximum magicka only and players ask to nerf magicka stacking despite it beeing totally not viable without hardened ward.
Tank problem also has to do with high mitigation/hp
players with hp scaling heals. Alikr duells usually last short between full dmg players but in Cyrodiil players do not want to kill alone but stalemate until their friends come.
Healers and Shielders dont contribute to healing and shielding problem less than dds/soloplayer.
Players complain about other players healing/shielding beeing too strong no matter if they scale with hp, mag/stam, wpndmg or nothing.

Beeing able to deal dmg and heal solo totally doesnt mean you are able to do everything solo.
However not beeing able to deal dmg and heal solo
means you are able to do nothing solo and need a group with healer and dd for everything.

Who could have thought that in the online spinoff and in absence of es6 also successor of solo rpg elder scrolls gameseries players recruited from solo rpgs want to be able to „do everything solo“ or actually at least deal dmg and selfheal.
Even in groups most players prefer to selfheal and deal dmg not just because everyone can keep their solobuild and avoid situations where group is only dds or only healers but also because it is more fun.
Even with selfheal PvP is barely soloplayable when every group attacks soloplayers on sight.
If they cant find most players rather leave or try on other faction than play solo.

Solo PvP should be hard. It shouldn't be a matter of just slotting more heals. Most heals already scale on weapon damage. Stacking 4k+/s HoT and a burst on top of that is excessive for any player that is damage oriented. There is no drawback to this. Some of these skills can even provide cross healing for others. Every heal can also provide a buff of some sort as well. With scribing you can even get resource return and major regen buffs on a single burst heal. Solo PvP should be hard. Being a glass cannon is one thing. Being a glass cannon, but able survive attacks from multiple people solely due to over tuned healing should not be a thing.

TyrantNikolai · March 22

Cross healing in pvp is excessive no doubt. However self heals are completely fine and should scale off the way they do as intended otherwise say good bye to solo pvping.There is already extremely strong cyrodiil monster set Jeralls Mountain Chief that already counters single target "self healers". Meanwhile sets like azure-blight which were great for countering coordinated "ballzergs" and were removed entirely which is just a sign what this company supports unkillable ez mode ball zerging. Overwhelming is another example of a weak single target set but great at one point for countering players while you are outnumbered. Zos clearly prioritizes a certain audience that wants to be unkillable endless cross healing ball zerg.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · March 22

Iriidius wrote: »

show previous quotes

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

AngryNecro wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

So many people talk about the healing problem, the tank problem, the shield problem, yet not many actually want to give up any of that for some real balancing. As it turns out, players want to be able to do everything solo in this multi-player game. Scribing has made this worse.

Well, I personally don't see the problem of the tank and the shield. But if you cut off the whole heall half of the classes will lack it, and then a more serious imbalance will begin. In the matter of heall, it is necessary to correct only coss-heall, and i think only on BG

The stacking of self heals is a problem too. A damage dealer packing 5k/s+ HoT and a 10k burst heal is excessive.

show previous quotes

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

No single heal is the culprit here. It's the stacking of heals. We already have a reduction with battle spirit but when heals can be stacked, it is easily overcome. That is why I suggest damage output being reduced when total healing capacity of the player is increased. "Full damage" players are in reality more like 40-50% healers.

I understand why some wouldn't want to make a change. Power would have to be given up. This multi-player game glorifies solo play above all others. Making a change like this would cause solo play to be more difficult in favor of encouraging group play and game balance.

That would hurt solo players more than ballgroup dds as solo have to slot more healing skills while still doing less healing. Selfhealing doesnt make players a healer, every healer healing only himself would get removed from group for beeing fakehealer.

This could easily be adjusted by having self healing be unaffected and only the 'healing of others' be modified.

dark_hunterxmg · March 22

TyrantNikolai wrote: »

Cross healing in pvp is excessive no doubt. However self heals are completely fine and should scale off the way they do as intended otherwise say good bye to solo pvping.There is already extremely strong cyrodiil monster set Jeralls Mountain Chief that already counters single target "self healers". Meanwhile sets like azure-blight which were great for countering coordinated "ballzergs" and were removed entirely which is just a sign what this company supports unkillable ez mode ball zerging. Overwhelming is another example of a weak single target set but great at one point for countering players while you are outnumbered. Zos clearly prioritizes a certain audience that wants to be unkillable endless cross healing ball zerg.

Keeping stacks of Jeralls on a Templar or a Warden generally isn't going to happen. They also happen to be great at self healing and cross healing. Jeralls doesn't even bother a lot of other players either, especially if they run the cleanse CP or Mara's Balm. Even a Stam sorc can have full stacks of Jeralls + major/minor defile and still be able to self heal effectively. So if I run Jeralls, I give up a more beneficial set in order to not even counter the thing that it was designed to counter. But also, why does anyone need to run a specific set in order to counter a single damage dealers excessive healing capacity? To say that self healing is just fine is incorrect. Heal stacking is overtuned and needs to have an actual tradeoff.

Iriidius · March 22

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

show previous quotes

Iriidius wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

So many people talk about the healing problem, the tank problem, the shield problem, yet not many actually want to give up any of that for some real balancing. As it turns out, players want to be able to do everything solo in this multi-player game. Scribing has made this worse.

Most of the players talking about these problems do not mean the ability to deal dmg and heal on a single character and preventing that would not solve their problem.
Hardened Ward already scales from maximum magicka only and players ask to nerf magicka stacking despite it beeing totally not viable without hardened ward.
Tank problem also has to do with high mitigation/hp
players with hp scaling heals. Alikr duells usually last short between full dmg players but in Cyrodiil players do not want to kill alone but stalemate until their friends come.
Healers and Shielders dont contribute to healing and shielding problem less than dds/soloplayer.
Players complain about other players healing/shielding beeing too strong no matter if they scale with hp, mag/stam, wpndmg or nothing.

Beeing able to deal dmg and heal solo totally doesnt mean you are able to do everything solo.
However not beeing able to deal dmg and heal solo
means you are able to do nothing solo and need a group with healer and dd for everything.

Who could have thought that in the online spinoff and in absence of es6 also successor of solo rpg elder scrolls gameseries players recruited from solo rpgs want to be able to „do everything solo“ or actually at least deal dmg and selfheal.
Even in groups most players prefer to selfheal and deal dmg not just because everyone can keep their solobuild and avoid situations where group is only dds or only healers but also because it is more fun.
Even with selfheal PvP is barely soloplayable when every group attacks soloplayers on sight.
If they cant find most players rather leave or try on other faction than play solo.

Solo PvP should be hard. It shouldn't be a matter of just slotting more heals. Most heals already scale on weapon damage. Stacking 4k+/s HoT and a burst on top of that is excessive for any player that is damage oriented. There is no drawback to this. Some of these skills can even provide cross healing for others. Every heal can also provide a buff of some sort as well. With scribing you can even get resource return and major regen buffs on a single burst heal. Solo PvP should be hard. Being a glass cannon is one thing. Being a glass cannon, but able survive attacks from multiple people solely due to over tuned healing should not be a thing.

Solo PvP is not just hard but almost impossible and you want to make it completely impossible. (except players goal is to get farmed by groups).
Glass canon players surviving attacks from multiple people are not glasscanons and are not a thing anymore and I wonder where you find them.

dark_hunterxmg · March 23

Iriidius wrote: »

show previous quotes

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

So many people talk about the healing problem, the tank problem, the shield problem, yet not many actually want to give up any of that for some real balancing. As it turns out, players want to be able to do everything solo in this multi-player game. Scribing has made this worse.

Most of the players talking about these problems do not mean the ability to deal dmg and heal on a single character and preventing that would not solve their problem.
Hardened Ward already scales from maximum magicka only and players ask to nerf magicka stacking despite it beeing totally not viable without hardened ward.
Tank problem also has to do with high mitigation/hp
players with hp scaling heals. Alikr duells usually last short between full dmg players but in Cyrodiil players do not want to kill alone but stalemate until their friends come.
Healers and Shielders dont contribute to healing and shielding problem less than dds/soloplayer.
Players complain about other players healing/shielding beeing too strong no matter if they scale with hp, mag/stam, wpndmg or nothing.

Beeing able to deal dmg and heal solo totally doesnt mean you are able to do everything solo.
However not beeing able to deal dmg and heal solo
means you are able to do nothing solo and need a group with healer and dd for everything.

Who could have thought that in the online spinoff and in absence of es6 also successor of solo rpg elder scrolls gameseries players recruited from solo rpgs want to be able to „do everything solo“ or actually at least deal dmg and selfheal.
Even in groups most players prefer to selfheal and deal dmg not just because everyone can keep their solobuild and avoid situations where group is only dds or only healers but also because it is more fun.
Even with selfheal PvP is barely soloplayable when every group attacks soloplayers on sight.
If they cant find most players rather leave or try on other faction than play solo.

Solo PvP should be hard. It shouldn't be a matter of just slotting more heals. Most heals already scale on weapon damage. Stacking 4k+/s HoT and a burst on top of that is excessive for any player that is damage oriented. There is no drawback to this. Some of these skills can even provide cross healing for others. Every heal can also provide a buff of some sort as well. With scribing you can even get resource return and major regen buffs on a single burst heal. Solo PvP should be hard. Being a glass cannon is one thing. Being a glass cannon, but able survive attacks from multiple people solely due to over tuned healing should not be a thing.

Solo PvP is not just hard but almost impossible and you want to make it completely impossible. (except players goal is to get farmed by groups).
Glass canon players surviving attacks from multiple people are not glasscanons and are not a thing anymore and I wonder where you find them.

It wouldn't be almost impossible. It would be more difficult and it should be. If you aren't a tank, you shouldn't be able to tank a whole group. The glass cannons are indeed glass cannons who are only surviving by Rallying Cry and heal stacking. That's why they are still hard to bring down. All of their stacked heals scale on weapon damage.

xFocused · March 23

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

show previous quotes

Iriidius wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

So many people talk about the healing problem, the tank problem, the shield problem, yet not many actually want to give up any of that for some real balancing. As it turns out, players want to be able to do everything solo in this multi-player game. Scribing has made this worse.

Most of the players talking about these problems do not mean the ability to deal dmg and heal on a single character and preventing that would not solve their problem.
Hardened Ward already scales from maximum magicka only and players ask to nerf magicka stacking despite it beeing totally not viable without hardened ward.
Tank problem also has to do with high mitigation/hp
players with hp scaling heals. Alikr duells usually last short between full dmg players but in Cyrodiil players do not want to kill alone but stalemate until their friends come.
Healers and Shielders dont contribute to healing and shielding problem less than dds/soloplayer.
Players complain about other players healing/shielding beeing too strong no matter if they scale with hp, mag/stam, wpndmg or nothing.

Beeing able to deal dmg and heal solo totally doesnt mean you are able to do everything solo.
However not beeing able to deal dmg and heal solo
means you are able to do nothing solo and need a group with healer and dd for everything.

Who could have thought that in the online spinoff and in absence of es6 also successor of solo rpg elder scrolls gameseries players recruited from solo rpgs want to be able to „do everything solo“ or actually at least deal dmg and selfheal.
Even in groups most players prefer to selfheal and deal dmg not just because everyone can keep their solobuild and avoid situations where group is only dds or only healers but also because it is more fun.
Even with selfheal PvP is barely soloplayable when every group attacks soloplayers on sight.
If they cant find most players rather leave or try on other faction than play solo.

Solo PvP should be hard. It shouldn't be a matter of just slotting more heals. Most heals already scale on weapon damage. Stacking 4k+/s HoT and a burst on top of that is excessive for any player that is damage oriented. There is no drawback to this. Some of these skills can even provide cross healing for others. Every heal can also provide a buff of some sort as well. With scribing you can even get resource return and major regen buffs on a single burst heal. Solo PvP should be hard. Being a glass cannon is one thing. Being a glass cannon, but able survive attacks from multiple people solely due to over tuned healing should not be a thing.

Solo PvP is not just hard but almost impossible and you want to make it completely impossible. (except players goal is to get farmed by groups).
Glass canon players surviving attacks from multiple people are not glasscanons and are not a thing anymore and I wonder where you find them.

It wouldn't be almost impossible. It would be more difficult and it should be. If you aren't a tank, you shouldn't be able to tank a whole group. The glass cannons are indeed glass cannons who are only surviving by Rallying Cry and heal stacking. That's why they are still hard to bring down. All of their stacked heals scale on weapon damage.

Just gonna add that I'm not fully understanding this mindset of "solo should be more difficult" but yet comped groups shouldn't be? Maybe I'm just not understanding this comment. I can say that as of right now solo PvP is very much lacking as comped group play is the meta currently and it's honestly making the solo players just log because there's no point in coming into Cyrodiil on a solo build and expecting to have a fun experience, at least not currently. Even tonight, I watched in our ZC as several players logged as EP had 5+ comped ball/small scale groups stacked on one another steamrolling everything, massive cross heals/shields/buffs, etc...but we want to make solo gameplay more difficult? I don't get it.

TyrantNikolai · March 23

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

show previous quotes

TyrantNikolai wrote: »

Cross healing in pvp is excessive no doubt. However self heals are completely fine and should scale off the way they do as intended otherwise say good bye to solo pvping.There is already extremely strong cyrodiil monster set Jeralls Mountain Chief that already counters single target "self healers". Meanwhile sets like azure-blight which were great for countering coordinated "ballzergs" and were removed entirely which is just a sign what this company supports unkillable ez mode ball zerging. Overwhelming is another example of a weak single target set but great at one point for countering players while you are outnumbered. Zos clearly prioritizes a certain audience that wants to be unkillable endless cross healing ball zerg.

Keeping stacks of Jeralls on a Templar or a Warden generally isn't going to happen. They also happen to be great at self healing and cross healing. Jeralls doesn't even bother a lot of other players either, especially if they run the cleanse CP or Mara's Balm. Even a Stam sorc can have full stacks of Jeralls + major/minor defile and still be able to self heal effectively. So if I run Jeralls, I give up a more beneficial set in order to not even counter the thing that it was designed to counter. But also, why does anyone need to run a specific set in order to counter a single damage dealers excessive healing capacity? To say that self healing is just fine is incorrect. Heal stacking is overtuned and needs to have an actual tradeoff.

I would agree with the cleanse nullifying by warden and templar but stamsorc or stamdk will definitely be feeling jeralls debuff thats why it is soo affective on stam necro. Hardly anyone uses maras anymore. Also, if you want to counter someone it should be through combination burst and not something cheesy like a blood for blood spamming 45k+ health vamp. I agree that cross heals need a nerf but nerfing self heals is not the answer.

dark_hunterxmg · March 23

xFocused wrote: »

show previous quotes

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

So many people talk about the healing problem, the tank problem, the shield problem, yet not many actually want to give up any of that for some real balancing. As it turns out, players want to be able to do everything solo in this multi-player game. Scribing has made this worse.

Most of the players talking about these problems do not mean the ability to deal dmg and heal on a single character and preventing that would not solve their problem.
Hardened Ward already scales from maximum magicka only and players ask to nerf magicka stacking despite it beeing totally not viable without hardened ward.
Tank problem also has to do with high mitigation/hp
players with hp scaling heals. Alikr duells usually last short between full dmg players but in Cyrodiil players do not want to kill alone but stalemate until their friends come.
Healers and Shielders dont contribute to healing and shielding problem less than dds/soloplayer.
Players complain about other players healing/shielding beeing too strong no matter if they scale with hp, mag/stam, wpndmg or nothing.

Beeing able to deal dmg and heal solo totally doesnt mean you are able to do everything solo.
However not beeing able to deal dmg and heal solo
means you are able to do nothing solo and need a group with healer and dd for everything.

Who could have thought that in the online spinoff and in absence of es6 also successor of solo rpg elder scrolls gameseries players recruited from solo rpgs want to be able to „do everything solo“ or actually at least deal dmg and selfheal.
Even in groups most players prefer to selfheal and deal dmg not just because everyone can keep their solobuild and avoid situations where group is only dds or only healers but also because it is more fun.
Even with selfheal PvP is barely soloplayable when every group attacks soloplayers on sight.
If they cant find most players rather leave or try on other faction than play solo.

Solo PvP should be hard. It shouldn't be a matter of just slotting more heals. Most heals already scale on weapon damage. Stacking 4k+/s HoT and a burst on top of that is excessive for any player that is damage oriented. There is no drawback to this. Some of these skills can even provide cross healing for others. Every heal can also provide a buff of some sort as well. With scribing you can even get resource return and major regen buffs on a single burst heal. Solo PvP should be hard. Being a glass cannon is one thing. Being a glass cannon, but able survive attacks from multiple people solely due to over tuned healing should not be a thing.

Solo PvP is not just hard but almost impossible and you want to make it completely impossible. (except players goal is to get farmed by groups).
Glass canon players surviving attacks from multiple people are not glasscanons and are not a thing anymore and I wonder where you find them.

It wouldn't be almost impossible. It would be more difficult and it should be. If you aren't a tank, you shouldn't be able to tank a whole group. The glass cannons are indeed glass cannons who are only surviving by Rallying Cry and heal stacking. That's why they are still hard to bring down. All of their stacked heals scale on weapon damage.

Just gonna add that I'm not fully understanding this mindset of "solo should be more difficult" but yet comped groups shouldn't be? Maybe I'm just not understanding this comment. I can say that as of right now solo PvP is very much lacking as comped group play is the meta currently and it's honestly making the solo players just log because there's no point in coming into Cyrodiil on a solo build and expecting to have a fun experience, at least not currently. Even tonight, I watched in our ZC as several players logged as EP had 5+ comped ball/small scale groups stacked on one another steamrolling everything, massive cross heals/shields/buffs, etc...but we want to make solo gameplay more difficult? I don't get it.

Comped groups would be more difficult as well. Damage output for each player would be reduced by the amount of heals on their bar or total individual healing capacity. So the massive cross heals means less damage by each player unless they are running actual damage dealers. Comped groups will always be stronger than solo players. There is no way around it. There's also no reason to think that a solo player should be able to take on whole groups alone.

Iriidius · March 24

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

show previous quotes

xFocused wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

So many people talk about the healing problem, the tank problem, the shield problem, yet not many actually want to give up any of that for some real balancing. As it turns out, players want to be able to do everything solo in this multi-player game. Scribing has made this worse.

Most of the players talking about these problems do not mean the ability to deal dmg and heal on a single character and preventing that would not solve their problem.
Hardened Ward already scales from maximum magicka only and players ask to nerf magicka stacking despite it beeing totally not viable without hardened ward.
Tank problem also has to do with high mitigation/hp
players with hp scaling heals. Alikr duells usually last short between full dmg players but in Cyrodiil players do not want to kill alone but stalemate until their friends come.
Healers and Shielders dont contribute to healing and shielding problem less than dds/soloplayer.
Players complain about other players healing/shielding beeing too strong no matter if they scale with hp, mag/stam, wpndmg or nothing.

Beeing able to deal dmg and heal solo totally doesnt mean you are able to do everything solo.
However not beeing able to deal dmg and heal solo
means you are able to do nothing solo and need a group with healer and dd for everything.

Who could have thought that in the online spinoff and in absence of es6 also successor of solo rpg elder scrolls gameseries players recruited from solo rpgs want to be able to „do everything solo“ or actually at least deal dmg and selfheal.
Even in groups most players prefer to selfheal and deal dmg not just because everyone can keep their solobuild and avoid situations where group is only dds or only healers but also because it is more fun.
Even with selfheal PvP is barely soloplayable when every group attacks soloplayers on sight.
If they cant find most players rather leave or try on other faction than play solo.

Solo PvP should be hard. It shouldn't be a matter of just slotting more heals. Most heals already scale on weapon damage. Stacking 4k+/s HoT and a burst on top of that is excessive for any player that is damage oriented. There is no drawback to this. Some of these skills can even provide cross healing for others. Every heal can also provide a buff of some sort as well. With scribing you can even get resource return and major regen buffs on a single burst heal. Solo PvP should be hard. Being a glass cannon is one thing. Being a glass cannon, but able survive attacks from multiple people solely due to over tuned healing should not be a thing.

Solo PvP is not just hard but almost impossible and you want to make it completely impossible. (except players goal is to get farmed by groups).
Glass canon players surviving attacks from multiple people are not glasscanons and are not a thing anymore and I wonder where you find them.

It wouldn't be almost impossible. It would be more difficult and it should be. If you aren't a tank, you shouldn't be able to tank a whole group. The glass cannons are indeed glass cannons who are only surviving by Rallying Cry and heal stacking. That's why they are still hard to bring down. All of their stacked heals scale on weapon damage.

Just gonna add that I'm not fully understanding this mindset of "solo should be more difficult" but yet comped groups shouldn't be? Maybe I'm just not understanding this comment. I can say that as of right now solo PvP is very much lacking as comped group play is the meta currently and it's honestly making the solo players just log because there's no point in coming into Cyrodiil on a solo build and expecting to have a fun experience, at least not currently. Even tonight, I watched in our ZC as several players logged as EP had 5+ comped ball/small scale groups stacked on one another steamrolling everything, massive cross heals/shields/buffs, etc...but we want to make solo gameplay more difficult? I don't get it.

Comped groups would be more difficult as well. Damage output for each player would be reduced by the amount of heals on their bar or total individual healing capacity. So the massive cross heals means less damage by each player unless they are running actual damage dealers. Comped groups will always be stronger than solo players. There is no way around it. There's also no reason to think that a solo player should be able to take on whole groups alone.

Comped groups with half healers half dds get only a tiny part of their healing from dd slotting echoing vigor so comped groups loose tiny part of healing when dds unslot heals and much less dmg if they keep the healing skills as they have to slot fewer when most of their heal comes from healers,
while soloplayers get all their healing from them self while also having to deal dmg them self and would get much higher dmg done reduction.

Iriidius · March 24

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

show previous quotes

Iriidius wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

So many people talk about the healing problem, the tank problem, the shield problem, yet not many actually want to give up any of that for some real balancing. As it turns out, players want to be able to do everything solo in this multi-player game. Scribing has made this worse.

Most of the players talking about these problems do not mean the ability to deal dmg and heal on a single character and preventing that would not solve their problem.
Hardened Ward already scales from maximum magicka only and players ask to nerf magicka stacking despite it beeing totally not viable without hardened ward.
Tank problem also has to do with high mitigation/hp
players with hp scaling heals. Alikr duells usually last short between full dmg players but in Cyrodiil players do not want to kill alone but stalemate until their friends come.
Healers and Shielders dont contribute to healing and shielding problem less than dds/soloplayer.
Players complain about other players healing/shielding beeing too strong no matter if they scale with hp, mag/stam, wpndmg or nothing.

Beeing able to deal dmg and heal solo totally doesnt mean you are able to do everything solo.
However not beeing able to deal dmg and heal solo
means you are able to do nothing solo and need a group with healer and dd for everything.

Who could have thought that in the online spinoff and in absence of es6 also successor of solo rpg elder scrolls gameseries players recruited from solo rpgs want to be able to „do everything solo“ or actually at least deal dmg and selfheal.
Even in groups most players prefer to selfheal and deal dmg not just because everyone can keep their solobuild and avoid situations where group is only dds or only healers but also because it is more fun.
Even with selfheal PvP is barely soloplayable when every group attacks soloplayers on sight.
If they cant find most players rather leave or try on other faction than play solo.

Solo PvP should be hard. It shouldn't be a matter of just slotting more heals. Most heals already scale on weapon damage. Stacking 4k+/s HoT and a burst on top of that is excessive for any player that is damage oriented. There is no drawback to this. Some of these skills can even provide cross healing for others. Every heal can also provide a buff of some sort as well. With scribing you can even get resource return and major regen buffs on a single burst heal. Solo PvP should be hard. Being a glass cannon is one thing. Being a glass cannon, but able survive attacks from multiple people solely due to over tuned healing should not be a thing.

Solo PvP is not just hard but almost impossible and you want to make it completely impossible. (except players goal is to get farmed by groups).
Glass canon players surviving attacks from multiple people are not glasscanons and are not a thing anymore and I wonder where you find them.

It wouldn't be almost impossible. It would be more difficult and it should be. If you aren't a tank, you shouldn't be able to tank a whole group. The glass cannons are indeed glass cannons who are only surviving by Rallying Cry and heal stacking. That's why they are still hard to bring down. All of their stacked heals scale on weapon damage.

It already is almost impossible and would be even closer to impossible to play solo with your changes.
If you aren't a tank, you aren't able to tank a whole group normally except the whole group has no dmg or never hits. If players have rallyng cry its probably backbared so they have 1 trainee and a mythic too, which is average build and not very glasscanon anymore. You also need dmg build to kill anything alone althought would need tank build to survive.

dark_hunterxmg · March 24

Iriidius wrote: »

show previous quotes

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

So many people talk about the healing problem, the tank problem, the shield problem, yet not many actually want to give up any of that for some real balancing. As it turns out, players want to be able to do everything solo in this multi-player game. Scribing has made this worse.

Most of the players talking about these problems do not mean the ability to deal dmg and heal on a single character and preventing that would not solve their problem.
Hardened Ward already scales from maximum magicka only and players ask to nerf magicka stacking despite it beeing totally not viable without hardened ward.
Tank problem also has to do with high mitigation/hp
players with hp scaling heals. Alikr duells usually last short between full dmg players but in Cyrodiil players do not want to kill alone but stalemate until their friends come.
Healers and Shielders dont contribute to healing and shielding problem less than dds/soloplayer.
Players complain about other players healing/shielding beeing too strong no matter if they scale with hp, mag/stam, wpndmg or nothing.

Beeing able to deal dmg and heal solo totally doesnt mean you are able to do everything solo.
However not beeing able to deal dmg and heal solo
means you are able to do nothing solo and need a group with healer and dd for everything.

Who could have thought that in the online spinoff and in absence of es6 also successor of solo rpg elder scrolls gameseries players recruited from solo rpgs want to be able to „do everything solo“ or actually at least deal dmg and selfheal.
Even in groups most players prefer to selfheal and deal dmg not just because everyone can keep their solobuild and avoid situations where group is only dds or only healers but also because it is more fun.
Even with selfheal PvP is barely soloplayable when every group attacks soloplayers on sight.
If they cant find most players rather leave or try on other faction than play solo.

Solo PvP should be hard. It shouldn't be a matter of just slotting more heals. Most heals already scale on weapon damage. Stacking 4k+/s HoT and a burst on top of that is excessive for any player that is damage oriented. There is no drawback to this. Some of these skills can even provide cross healing for others. Every heal can also provide a buff of some sort as well. With scribing you can even get resource return and major regen buffs on a single burst heal. Solo PvP should be hard. Being a glass cannon is one thing. Being a glass cannon, but able survive attacks from multiple people solely due to over tuned healing should not be a thing.

Solo PvP is not just hard but almost impossible and you want to make it completely impossible. (except players goal is to get farmed by groups).
Glass canon players surviving attacks from multiple people are not glasscanons and are not a thing anymore and I wonder where you find them.

It wouldn't be almost impossible. It would be more difficult and it should be. If you aren't a tank, you shouldn't be able to tank a whole group. The glass cannons are indeed glass cannons who are only surviving by Rallying Cry and heal stacking. That's why they are still hard to bring down. All of their stacked heals scale on weapon damage.

It already is almost impossible and would be even closer to impossible to play solo with your changes.
If you aren't a tank, you aren't able to tank a whole group normally except the whole group has no dmg or never hits. If players have rallyng cry its probably backbared so they have 1 trainee and a mythic too, which is average build and not very glasscanon anymore. You also need dmg build to kill anything alone althought would need tank build to survive.

It really isn't almost impossible now. I see it every day.
With the way healing is now, players can self heal and cross heal without even slotting different skills. A group of Wardens can constantly burst heal each other and themselves, and have HoTs on top of that. They can do this while being very high damage solo builds. Other classes can do similar things. All this overtuned healing needs to be brought down. If someone wants to play healer, then play healer.

Iriidius · March 25

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

show previous quotes

Iriidius wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

So many people talk about the healing problem, the tank problem, the shield problem, yet not many actually want to give up any of that for some real balancing. As it turns out, players want to be able to do everything solo in this multi-player game. Scribing has made this worse.

Most of the players talking about these problems do not mean the ability to deal dmg and heal on a single character and preventing that would not solve their problem.
Hardened Ward already scales from maximum magicka only and players ask to nerf magicka stacking despite it beeing totally not viable without hardened ward.
Tank problem also has to do with high mitigation/hp
players with hp scaling heals. Alikr duells usually last short between full dmg players but in Cyrodiil players do not want to kill alone but stalemate until their friends come.
Healers and Shielders dont contribute to healing and shielding problem less than dds/soloplayer.
Players complain about other players healing/shielding beeing too strong no matter if they scale with hp, mag/stam, wpndmg or nothing.

Beeing able to deal dmg and heal solo totally doesnt mean you are able to do everything solo.
However not beeing able to deal dmg and heal solo
means you are able to do nothing solo and need a group with healer and dd for everything.

Who could have thought that in the online spinoff and in absence of es6 also successor of solo rpg elder scrolls gameseries players recruited from solo rpgs want to be able to „do everything solo“ or actually at least deal dmg and selfheal.
Even in groups most players prefer to selfheal and deal dmg not just because everyone can keep their solobuild and avoid situations where group is only dds or only healers but also because it is more fun.
Even with selfheal PvP is barely soloplayable when every group attacks soloplayers on sight.
If they cant find most players rather leave or try on other faction than play solo.

Solo PvP should be hard. It shouldn't be a matter of just slotting more heals. Most heals already scale on weapon damage. Stacking 4k+/s HoT and a burst on top of that is excessive for any player that is damage oriented. There is no drawback to this. Some of these skills can even provide cross healing for others. Every heal can also provide a buff of some sort as well. With scribing you can even get resource return and major regen buffs on a single burst heal. Solo PvP should be hard. Being a glass cannon is one thing. Being a glass cannon, but able survive attacks from multiple people solely due to over tuned healing should not be a thing.

Solo PvP is not just hard but almost impossible and you want to make it completely impossible. (except players goal is to get farmed by groups).
Glass canon players surviving attacks from multiple people are not glasscanons and are not a thing anymore and I wonder where you find them.

It wouldn't be almost impossible. It would be more difficult and it should be. If you aren't a tank, you shouldn't be able to tank a whole group. The glass cannons are indeed glass cannons who are only surviving by Rallying Cry and heal stacking. That's why they are still hard to bring down. All of their stacked heals scale on weapon damage.

It already is almost impossible and would be even closer to impossible to play solo with your changes.
If you aren't a tank, you aren't able to tank a whole group normally except the whole group has no dmg or never hits. If players have rallyng cry its probably backbared so they have 1 trainee and a mythic too, which is average build and not very glasscanon anymore. You also need dmg build to kill anything alone althought would need tank build to survive.

It really isn't almost impossible now. I see it every day.
With the way healing is now, players can self heal and cross heal without even slotting different skills. A group of Wardens can constantly burst heal each other and themselves, and have HoTs on top of that. They can do this while being very high damage solo builds. Other classes can do similar things. All this overtuned healing needs to be brought down. If someone wants to play healer, then play healer.

Seems like the server you play looks very different to PC EU then because I never see it anymore.

Why is this overtuned healing not overtuned when
casted by a healer anymore?
A group can have half healers doing the healing and half dds doing the dmg and have both healing and dmg that way, a soloplayer can’t.
A soloplayer selfhealing is a selfhealing soloplayer and neither a dd nor a healer.

Polar wind might be good both for selfhealing and crosshealing but echoing vigor/radiating regen are not very good for selfhealing but completely over-powered when used by a group as you get 6 times the healing. Single target heals even when given to other players do not have more total healing than when used on yourself.

YandereGirlfriend · March 25

Wallar333 wrote: »

Funny you choosed NB for this topic bro which sucks as a PVP healer . Its nice in PVE tho. Best heal for pvp now is arcanist, especially cos of multitarget shielding.

I personally agree with that there should be different scaling for HEALS/DMG/RESISTANCES, cos now everyone can be all in one, which sucks also, actually a better solution ive had in my topic before.

But AGAIN i have to mention, heals are not that much of a problem, DMG shields are ! granting 100% crit resistance, while also shielding HP, which means you are immune to critics, while you can also heal yourself to full HP UNDER the protection of shield, or even better, someones else heals you and shield you, while youre doing the same on your own, GOD mode cheat literally. Thats why sorcs and DKs are dominating whole PVP.

DMG shields definitely should not be present in PVP content. Its only way to save this games PVP.

Damage shields don't give you Crit immunity. That changed like seven years ago.

Wallar333 · March 25

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

show previous quotes

Wallar333 wrote: »

Funny you choosed NB for this topic bro which sucks as a PVP healer . Its nice in PVE tho. Best heal for pvp now is arcanist, especially cos of multitarget shielding.

I personally agree with that there should be different scaling for HEALS/DMG/RESISTANCES, cos now everyone can be all in one, which sucks also, actually a better solution ive had in my topic before.

But AGAIN i have to mention, heals are not that much of a problem, DMG shields are ! granting 100% crit resistance, while also shielding HP, which means you are immune to critics, while you can also heal yourself to full HP UNDER the protection of shield, or even better, someones else heals you and shield you, while youre doing the same on your own, GOD mode cheat literally. Thats why sorcs and DKs are dominating whole PVP.

DMG shields definitely should not be present in PVP content. Its only way to save this games PVP.

Damage shields don't give you Crit immunity. That changed like seven years ago.

Yes, already figured that out, didnt been playing for a verry long time. Im now playing on another acc for around year and something. Meanwhile been playing verry few times on someone elses acc, didnt cared about reading patch notes, so didnt knew about few things that changed. I just guessed that it didnt changed, cos i didnt seen much difference between hits, when been fighting shielded players. Full impen+ rallying cry are most probably behind of this.

Its not changing the fact those shields are crazy in cyro tho. In other pvp aspects those shields are annoying, i personally dont like even healing in games, and here its even more nonsense with dmg shields hah. But true shielding problem is in cyro, its crazy, dumb a totally NO FUN to play cyro with so many heals shielded under all those dmg shields. Mayhem showed this games mass pvp problem precisely, more shields/heals = win. Saw many times arcanist healers spamming shields like crazy there, causing DDs to not be able to kill anyone in the zerg, cos even if someone got to 20% HP, they got back to full and been full bar shielded in a second. Its ruining any chance of solo play in cyro, and makes group play to be boring as hell cos of this. Only few ballgroup noobs, usually sorcs and DKs are enjoying this nonsense.
Even this weeks test cyro is more fun than a normal one really. Especially cos there are no shields, and there are verry few heals, while also ballgroup noobs cant use their dumb sets, but thats for another topic...

Im suggesting that taking DMG shields out of cyro completely could ease this problem, theres still a LOT of heals anyway, those shields are only good for ballgroups, it brings literally no good to anyone else, especially solo players. Its ONLY boosting ballgroups which are just ruining cyro with so many dmg shields and few dumb builds, while also most of the are playing sorcs for quic attack/retreat. Cyro definitely needs to be changed for something playable, current state is literally a disaster.

Amottica · March 25

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

If you want trinity style PvP, then you probably want an entirely different game.

I agree with this. At the very core, the foundation of this game, there is no ridged trinity. While I respect people expressing their own opinions, in this case I have one that differs.

BTW, what seems to be a simple solution is not always a good one. Case in point, my group runs with dedicated heals, not a group that is stacking hots, and while we are small we often are successful against larger groups.

In other words, the toughest groups in Cyrodiil will still be the toughest groups because they are well organized, have solid leadership, require being on comms, and know how to adapt to changes made to the game.

MincMincMinc · March 26

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

There has been a lot of talk about the excessive amount of healing an cross healing in pvp environments. Heal stacking is allowing low resistance, high damage players to stay alive when they would otherwise be dead. Heal stacking with heals that also scale with weapon damage allows players to get the best of both worlds.
Currently a full damage player can slot multiple heals/healing sources (4-6) and have no penalty to being a damage dealer. A nightblade, for example generally has 4 healing abilities standard. Healthy Offering(or healing contingency), Resolving Vigor, Refreshing Path, and Siphoning Strikes. Additionally, Merciless Resolve, Soul Tether, Swallow Soul, and Sap Essence provide healing as well. So that's 3 direct heals and up to 5 other indirect, which all scale with damage and some can cross heal others. Other classes have similar abilities, but this is just one example.
I propose that the number of healing abilities slotted on a players bar should reduce their amount of damage output by (x)%. Direct healing abilities (x)% and indirect (y)%.
Another option would be a calculation of overall healing capacity, with a damage reduction penalty associated.

The more elegant solution which drives stat tension would be to inverse the scaling between WD and max stat. Damage skills roughly scale 50% more with WD compared to max stat. Why not make Healing skills do the opposite. Drive players to make more of a choice instead of just maxing out WD on all builds. This also makes players want to drop max health because max stats are more useful.

You are trying to reinvent the wheel and add more complexity to a system that has failed because it has not been utilized and lost its tension.

Other blatant issues are that
- triglyphs are just more efficient..... there is no reason to run anything else.
- Infused jewelry are more efficient..... again no reason to run robust
- WD jewlery glyphs are more efficient.....no reason to run regen glyphs
- Regen food is more efficient..........
and so on