A solution for the Healer/DD meta. Healing and damage should scale inversely.

dark_hunterxmg · March 12

There has been a lot of talk about the excessive amount of healing an cross healing in pvp environments. Heal stacking is allowing low resistance, high damage players to stay alive when they would otherwise be dead. Heal stacking with heals that also scale with weapon damage allows players to get the best of both worlds.
Currently a full damage player can slot multiple heals/healing sources (4-6) and have no penalty to being a damage dealer. A nightblade, for example generally has 4 healing abilities standard. Healthy Offering(or healing contingency), Resolving Vigor, Refreshing Path, and Siphoning Strikes. Additionally, Merciless Resolve, Soul Tether, Swallow Soul, and Sap Essence provide healing as well. So that's 3 direct heals and up to 5 other indirect, which all scale with damage and some can cross heal others. Other classes have similar abilities, but this is just one example.
I propose that the number of healing abilities slotted on a players bar should reduce their amount of damage output by (x)%. Direct healing abilities (x)% and indirect (y)%.
Another option would be a calculation of overall healing capacity, with a damage reduction penalty associated.

Wallar333 · March 12

Funny you choosed NB for this topic bro

which sucks as a PVP healer

. Its nice in PVE tho. Best heal for pvp now is arcanist, especially cos of multitarget shielding.

I personally agree with that there should be different scaling for HEALS/DMG/RESISTANCES, cos now everyone can be all in one, which sucks also, actually a better solution ive had in my topic before.

But AGAIN i have to mention, heals are not that much of a problem, DMG shields are ! granting 100% crit resistance, while also shielding HP, which means you are immune to critics, while you can also heal yourself to full HP UNDER the protection of shield, or even better, someones else heals you and shield you, while youre doing the same on your own, GOD mode cheat literally. Thats why sorcs and DKs are dominating whole PVP.

DMG shields definitely should not be present in PVP content. Its only way to save this games PVP.

dark_hunterxmg · March 12

Wallar333 wrote: »

Funny you choosed NB for this topic bro which sucks as a PVP healer . Its nice in PVE tho. Best heal for pvp now is arcanist, especially cos of multitarget shielding.

I personally agree with that there should be different scaling for HEALS/DMG/RESISTANCES, cos now everyone can be all in one, which sucks also, actually a better solution ive had in my topic before.

But AGAIN i have to mention, heals are not that much of a problem, DMG shields are ! granting 100% crit resistance, while also shielding HP, which means you are immune to critics, while you can also heal yourself to full HP UNDER the protection of shield, or even better, someones else heals you and shield you, while youre doing the same on your own, GOD mode cheat literally. Thats why sorcs and DKs are dominating whole PVP.

DMG shields definitely should not be present in PVP content. Its only way to save this games PVP.

I picked Nightblade because I know the class better than the others. As a pvp Healer roll NB is not the best choice. My point was that a full blown damage dealing NB in pvp will have a buffet of healing available for themselves. Other classes do it as well. Damage dealers run a minimum of 1 burst heal and 2 HoTs plus heal return on other skills.
Some players seem incredibly tanky until you put a negate on top of them. Then they die in short order. That tells me that it is a healing problem.

Major_Mangle · March 12

Imagine saying NB healer is a weak PvP healer when it´s arguably one of the strongest ones, and has been for many many years.

Wallar333 · March 12

Theres surely a lot of heals too, but trust me bro, DMG shields are the MAIN problem in pvp, take all those heals, and put them under protection of a DMG shield = GOD MODE -ON- ... As NB, you know that its only strong side is surprise HARD attack to slay one person asap, which is HARD to do with all those heals, but its IMPOSSIBLE to do while those ppl are also shielded. From time to time you can met sorcs who are even having fun of you. I as a DD, cant even break their shields, not to even get their HP down, they can literally have fun of you, cos when they are also using dodges, you cant do anything, cos ALL your spell are dodgable, I can play against DKs but at least running away from them

, but sorcs are rly a PAIN in the ***. Trust me, heals are like 30% of the problem, 70% are dmg shields, cos they also giving you 100% crit protection.

Wallar333 · March 12

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Imagine saying NB healer is a weak PvP healer when it´s arguably one of the strongest ones, and has been for many many years.

Without DMG shields ? not that strong at all, if ill ever have to pick arcanist or NB, i would always take arcanist healer, DMG shield is way better than a few more K of HP healed.

dark_hunterxmg · March 12

Damage shields are strong too. That is already being talked about. I am specifically talking about healing and how to address it.

WaywardArgonian · March 12

Wallar333 wrote: »

Funny you choosed NB for this topic bro which sucks as a PVP healer

It really, really doesn't lol.

xylena_lazarow · March 13

If you want trinity style PvP, then you probably want an entirely different game.

dark_hunterxmg · March 15

Not looking for trinity style pvp. I'm talking about balance. Healing is way over tuned. It goes for cross heals from damage dealers and self heals for damage dealers. Healing should not scale upward with weapon damage. A single player can be 50% healer, 50% damage dealer, and be 100% great at both.

AngryNecro · March 15

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Not looking for trinity style pvp. I'm talking about balance. Healing is way over tuned. It goes for cross heals from damage dealers and self heals for damage dealers. Healing should not scale upward with weapon damage. A single player can be 50% healer, 50% damage dealer, and be 100% great at both.

if told about 4x4 BG this is exactly how it should be in relation to selfheall. But cross heall need be cutet on 30-40% that i can agry. almost whole skill with time out heall have crossheall efect. and i think it some dificalt to realise cose for exampl NB trak is area efect and you need buff for ecxample on all group and all heall to NB and -30% to group. I think they can do that from BG debuff like spirit. But if they only cut heallers score on BG that alredy fix that problem.

dark_hunterxmg · March 19

So many people talk about the healing problem, the tank problem, the shield problem, yet not many actually want to give up any of that for some real balancing. As it turns out, players want to be able to do everything solo in this multi-player game. Scribing has made this worse.

AngryNecro · March 19

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

So many people talk about the healing problem, the tank problem, the shield problem, yet not many actually want to give up any of that for some real balancing. As it turns out, players want to be able to do everything solo in this multi-player game. Scribing has made this worse.

Well, I personally don't see the problem of the tank and the shield. But if you cut off the whole heall half of the classes will lack it, and then a more serious imbalance will begin. In the matter of heall, it is necessary to correct only coss-heall, and i think only on BG

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · March 19

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

If you want trinity style PvP, then you probably want an entirely different game.

This isn't true, we used to have this type of system but tanks were 'support' instead in group play and it was a way better system imo

As for the post itself personally I fully agree that Dmg scaling should be different to healing scaling instead of them both scaling from the same things.

Even ZOS agree with this to a point - with some healing proc sets scaling from max resources and damage proc sets scaling from weapon/spell dmg.

In addition to this Health scaling is a big problem. Firstly they should just revert the fact that heath scales higher per point/set bonus value. e.g. 1 point invested in health should give the same amount as 1 point invested into magicka rather than more.
Secondly by switching healing to scale from mag/stam it would encourage players to stack less into health and instead boost their resources.

I still think there should be health based heals in the game but they are far to prevalent, e.g. there's no reason why both Soul burst shielding and Contingency shielding should scale from Max HP.

dark_hunterxmg · March 19

AngryNecro wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

So many people talk about the healing problem, the tank problem, the shield problem, yet not many actually want to give up any of that for some real balancing. As it turns out, players want to be able to do everything solo in this multi-player game. Scribing has made this worse.

Well, I personally don't see the problem of the tank and the shield. But if you cut off the whole heall half of the classes will lack it, and then a more serious imbalance will begin. In the matter of heall, it is necessary to correct only coss-heall, and i think only on BG

The stacking of self heals is a problem too. A damage dealer packing 5k/s+ HoT and a 10k burst heal is excessive.

xylena_lazarow · March 19

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

This isn't true, we used to have this type of system but tanks were 'support' instead in group play and it was a way better system imo

This style "solution" has been brought forth for a decade+ and it's not gonna happen because it would nuke solo DD play and cross heal smallscale due to the demands on self sustain, further tilting the playing field in favor of minmax comps that already hard specialize and split DD from healer/support. Or it would turn everyone into MagSorcs. Everyone...

AngryNecro · March 19

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

AngryNecro wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

So many people talk about the healing problem, the tank problem, the shield problem, yet not many actually want to give up any of that for some real balancing. As it turns out, players want to be able to do everything solo in this multi-player game. Scribing has made this worse.

Well, I personally don't see the problem of the tank and the shield. But if you cut off the whole heall half of the classes will lack it, and then a more serious imbalance will begin. In the matter of heall, it is necessary to correct only coss-heall, and i think only on BG

The stacking of self heals is a problem too. A damage dealer packing 5k/s+ HoT and a 10k burst heal is excessive.

well they loose damage in that case too. and if playrs start use heall-blok skills and set maby zose give more heall-block skills too you soone

Major_Mangle · March 19

Don't think decoupling healing from damage scaling values completely is a good move since it essentially forces the game towards the traditional "trinity" (which is honestly a garbage/boring concept, just personal preference) and punishes anyone not in an optimised group even more (unless you've a HP scaling heal or something like the current Hardened ward).

I wouldn't be against changing how much of the values coming from wpn/spell damage vs max resource. Aka move some of the "power" from wpn/spell damage to max resources making investment into max stat a bit more attractive.

dark_hunterxmg · March 19

AngryNecro wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

AngryNecro wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

So many people talk about the healing problem, the tank problem, the shield problem, yet not many actually want to give up any of that for some real balancing. As it turns out, players want to be able to do everything solo in this multi-player game. Scribing has made this worse.

Well, I personally don't see the problem of the tank and the shield. But if you cut off the whole heall half of the classes will lack it, and then a more serious imbalance will begin. In the matter of heall, it is necessary to correct only coss-heall, and i think only on BG

The stacking of self heals is a problem too. A damage dealer packing 5k/s+ HoT and a 10k burst heal is excessive.

well they loose damage in that case too. and if playrs start use heall-blok skills and set maby zose give more heall-block skills too you soone

They don't lose damage. The heals scale on damage.

huskandhunger · March 19

Pvp healing and shielding is extremely potent, has there been any talks at ZOS to reign in this power either by perhaps buffing defiles which have been on the radar since their last nerf, or adjusting the current 55% healing reduction of Battlespirit?

Thank you.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin

AngryNecro · March 19

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

They don't lose damage. The heals scale on damage.

And what? they get on bild with healing not damage prog or damage buff so they lose damage. i have DD bilds with healling set and they all lose in powerfull in attak

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · March 19

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

This isn't true, we used to have this type of system but tanks were 'support' instead in group play and it was a way better system imo

This style "solution" has been brought forth for a decade+ and it's not gonna happen because it would nuke solo DD play and cross heal smallscale due to the demands on self sustain, further tilting the playing field in favor of minmax comps that already hard specialize and split DD from healer/support. Or it would turn everyone into MagSorcs. Everyone...

@xylena_lazarow do you mean just the section you quoted or my whole post?

If just the section about support being the 3rd point of the 'trinity' system then I was saying we did used to have this system already, we still do to a certain (worse) level.

If you mean about splitting damage to weapon dmg and healing to resources then I think its perfectly possible to do and would be a better system. In fact we used to have a viable system in place (Soft caps). Players could still choose to be more bursty or more supportive in their playstyles but also had to balance their stats for the most part (which made resources be the main issue).

Finally there's no downside to reducing health per point/set bonus/cp star to match the other resources.

xylena_lazarow · March 19

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

If you mean about splitting damage to weapon dmg and healing to resources then I think its perfectly possible to do and would be a better system. In fact we used to have a viable system in place (Soft caps). Players could still choose to be more bursty or more supportive in their playstyles but also had to balance their stats for the most part (which made resources be the main issue).

Better would be subjective. It would be a different game if you rigidly separate healing and damage like that. Soft caps did not do that at all, not sure what you mean. Soft caps in theory kept the power ceiling down so you don't end up with the meta being warped by ultra-efficient minmax group comps or one-stat outliers like current MagSorcs. You were more than free in 2014 to build a 1vX brawler that could tank, heal, and damage, as you should be able to in this game.

moo_2021 · March 19

But healing wasn't such a big problem before hybridization.

xylena_lazarow · March 20

moo_2021 wrote: »

But healing wasn't such a big problem before hybridization.

What you may really be remembering is the time when Defile was a functional mechanic, before its many nerfs.

Major_Mangle · March 20

moo_2021 wrote: »

But healing wasn't such a big problem before hybridization.

It kinda was, just different skills used back then compared to now. I very clearly remember how overtuned/strong stacking radiating regeneration was (still is a good tool but nowhere near as strong as it used to be). The biggest difference between then and now is the absurd stat power creep, together with scribing, zos has brought into the game.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

moo_2021 wrote: »

But healing wasn't such a big problem before hybridization.

What you may really be remembering is the time when Defile was a functional mechanic, before its many nerfs.

Defiles didn´t really solve the problem, it just made the gap between classes with good heals and those without even more prominent. Back when necro came out the only classes that could reliably heal and stay alive was necro and warden since their healing toolkit allowed them to deal with defiles. Every other class did not have a good time back then. All buffing defiles does is making the experience for outnumbered players (solo-3 man ish) more unbearable.

You wanna fix overtuned survivability you tackle the stat power creep (buff sets, sustain being too easy, HP being too easy to get without any trade off etc etc), but preferably without forcing people into the old MMO trinity.

xylena_lazarow · March 20

Major_Mangle wrote: »

You wanna fix overtuned survivability you tackle the stat power creep (buff sets, sustain being too easy, HP being too easy to get without any trade off etc etc), but preferably without forcing people into the old MMO trinity.

They are tackling the stat creep with Vengeance.

Before Summerset, Defile offered counterplay to heal stacking. It helped enabled a dynamic DD meta with bursty glass cannons, midrange bleed brawlers, and defile attrition tanks. It was effective against the midrange bleed builds and in attrition tank mirrors, but not much against the glass cannons or niche shield builds.

Now all we have is Meatbags and Jeralls... but you're right that just Defiles wouldn't solve the problem, because it's moreso a problem at the large scale level with the sort of mass heal stacking seen in comp groups.

dark_hunterxmg · March 20

No single heal is the culprit here. It's the stacking of heals. We already have a reduction with battle spirit but when heals can be stacked, it is easily overcome. That is why I suggest damage output being reduced when total healing capacity of the player is increased. "Full damage" players are in reality more like 40-50% healers.

I understand why some wouldn't want to make a change. Power would have to be given up. This multi-player game glorifies solo play above all others. Making a change like this would cause solo play to be more difficult in favor of encouraging group play and game balance.

Kartalin · March 20

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

You wanna fix overtuned survivability you tackle the stat power creep (buff sets, sustain being too easy, HP being too easy to get without any trade off etc etc), but preferably without forcing people into the old MMO trinity.

They are tackling the stat creep with Vengeance.

Before Summerset, Defile offered counterplay to heal stacking. It helped enabled a dynamic DD meta with bursty glass cannons, midrange bleed brawlers, and defile attrition tanks. It was effective against the midrange bleed builds and in attrition tank mirrors, but not much against the glass cannons or niche shield builds.

Now all we have is Meatbags and Jeralls... but you're right that just Defiles wouldn't solve the problem, because it's moreso a problem at the large scale level with the sort of mass heal stacking seen in comp groups.

We frequently have a werewolf in our ball group, sometimes as the raid lead, because of their ability to apply both major and minor defile with a single conal AOE attack

But this is yet another bit of flexibility that ball groups can enjoy that solos or smaller scale groups can't as easily make use of. I remember a time in the game wearing Durok's Bane and Fasalla's Guile in a smaller scale brawl group to apply major and minor defile.

dark_hunterxmg · March 20

Kartalin wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

You wanna fix overtuned survivability you tackle the stat power creep (buff sets, sustain being too easy, HP being too easy to get without any trade off etc etc), but preferably without forcing people into the old MMO trinity.

They are tackling the stat creep with Vengeance.

Before Summerset, Defile offered counterplay to heal stacking. It helped enabled a dynamic DD meta with bursty glass cannons, midrange bleed brawlers, and defile attrition tanks. It was effective against the midrange bleed builds and in attrition tank mirrors, but not much against the glass cannons or niche shield builds.

Now all we have is Meatbags and Jeralls... but you're right that just Defiles wouldn't solve the problem, because it's moreso a problem at the large scale level with the sort of mass heal stacking seen in comp groups.

We frequently have a werewolf in our ball group, sometimes as the raid lead, because of their ability to apply both major and minor defile with a single conal AOE attack

But this is yet another bit of flexibility that ball groups can enjoy that solos or smaller scale groups can't as easily make use of. I remember a time in the game wearing Durok's Bane and Fasalla's Guile in a smaller scale brawl group to apply major and minor defile.

Defiles definitely don't solve any of the problem. I'm a Werewolf main and I can say for certain that 1: Defile claws barely make a dent in other players healing capacity and 2: A solo werewolf is not enjoying anything. :'D

Kartalin · March 20

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Defiles definitely don't solve any of the problem. I'm a Werewolf main and I can say for certain that 1: Defile claws barely make a dent in other players healing capacity and 2: A solo werewolf is not enjoying anything. :'D

It's like you read my first sentence and then stopped there to reply. Defiles can definitely help when you have a full group backing you up.