Need some ideas to counter ball groups.

Veinblood1965 · March 11

OK I have refrained from commenting on most ball group posts except positive things as I personally believe that if a team does their homework and are using complimentary sets, skills and classes and work together learning as a team then that's just PVP. This is NOT a bash or nerf ball group post just saying.....

I play in one of the largest PVP guilds on our server and we usually are effective against them however recently there has been a really effective ball group that is getting harder and almost impossible to take down. They are a full group, all with over 40k health each, most running snow treaders, and I believe mostly swift jewelry so we can't stun them and they are hard to catch. Last night they got inside a keep and it took over 30 minutes to be taken down. And taking them down required EVERYTHING we had to go perfect and I mean perfect timing. Position, Negates, Pulls, Coldfire ballista's, our entire group and most of our server involved. All the while we lost pretty much most of our other outlying keeps. Our guild is going to be working on this as I am sure it's going to get worse since last night was such an effective strategy, tie up most of our server with 12 people while the rest of their server takes everything else.

SO.... We have the negates, pulls, etc but what other counters are there? Are there any sets that might help that our entire group could slot when we see this? Certain skills? I'm going to start looking through all the sets tonight and we can try different things.

It's either that or we do the same thing, build a similar group and counter with that. Honestly that's no fun IMO but it may be what it takes if there end up being absolutely no counter other than everything going perfect and 30 minutes to take down.

On the plus side it's causing us to get better coordinated with our group lol.

Thanks.

RealLoveBVB · March 11

Their best counter is to ignore them.

All ballgroups I know play for kills/trolling/baiting in keeps or scrolls, not for the campaign.

If you start to avoid them, they won't get their satisfaction with doing their kills. So they lose their interest and leave.

Veinblood1965 · March 11

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Their best counter is to ignore them.

All ballgroups I know play for kills/trolling/baiting in keeps or scrolls, not for the campaign.

If you start to avoid them, they won't get their satisfaction with doing their kills. So they lose their interest and leave.

Usually I agree if outside a keep, however when they are this big if left alone they would just take the keep and move on to the next one and so on...

Fairly sure this will get worse if not countered. It's fun to figure out how to do so though. Something that reduces their shields as a group, or health etc. Stuns won't work, not negates since they move so fast. They are bombing also as a group so they individually don't need that much damage but as a group it's effective. We could toss on Glooming Grace which gives 20% damage reduction to AOE's but that does not help with killing them.

xylena_lazarow · March 11

The best counter is to fight them on the forums instead. No heal stacking or Rushing Agony in PvChat.

Xarc · March 11

You need a ballgroup to smash a ballgroup.

Only.

Kartalin · March 11

Things that annoy ball groupers running around the top floor of a home keep:

- individual players being chained/pulled away from the rest of the group
- Knock backs that push them off the edge where they can’t rejoin the group
- Well placed siege on the outer walls firing inward that adds pressure to their healers
- Simultaneously being stunned and negated, this opens a brief 1-2 seconds of vulnerability, which opposing groups can try to take advantage of.

The goal should be to take out individual members of the group one at a time. Each one lost reduces the effectiveness of the group, and if you get really lucky on which one you knock out, the group may collapse or opt to abandon the keep in order to regroup

RealLoveBVB · March 11

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

The best counter is to fight them on the forums instead. No heal stacking or Rushing Agony in PvChat.

There is! Mods can stack/merge postings together, which decreases the hp...aah I mean posting count

WaywardArgonian · March 11

A few things:

- Siege. This is obvious, but given that the 'siege does nothing' myth is often repeated here, it should be mentioned. Flaming Oil, Coldfire and Meatbags hurt like hell. Unless they changed something, siege bypasses resistances, and it applies debuffs to your enemy that are both stronger than anything else in PVP and are completely untraceable, making counterplay more difficult. Numbers are hard to find, but I've read online that Flaming Oil applies a 48% healing taken debuff per tick and is stackable. I can't verify the exact number, but it corresponds with my experience: players that take prolonged oil damage will almost be 'immune' to your burst heals. Since the main source of ballgroups' survival is the strong AoE group healing, siege eats into their resources a lot. Even if you may not see their healthbars moving much, they will be spending considerably more resources and sustain on staying alive, making them more susceptible to a guild pushing them.
- Synergies. This may be 'cheating' my answer a tad because it kind of dips into ballgroups' own tactics, but hitting them with strong synergies can hurt ballgroups. Especially if you combine hard-hitting synergies such as Nova with mechanics such as Corrosive Armor or Cryptcanon. Even if you're just a handful of people, you can wipe a lot of ballgroups this way. The top ones will be too savvy and skilled to fall for it, but a lot of ballgroups out there are killable even when you're outnumbered.
- Negates. Again, it almost goes without saying, but especially if you are fighting a ballgroup in tighter environments, such as an outpost, being able to coat the area in multiple Negates can really hurt them, more so if you combine it with well-timed siege fire. It might even be worth investing in some ulti generation for your group.
- Blocking. It sounds even more of a no-brainer than Negates, but many casual guilds wipe so easily because they are simply not blocking. Players are often inclined to dodge roll instead. Dodge rolling is costly when done multiple times, and it doesn't do much against a ballgroup as you can still be pulled back in by RoA or they will just chase after you with 5 Northern Storms active and you'll die in AoE from hell 10 meters down the road. Blocking and simply trying to walk out of the damage point (move behind an object if possible) may not be foolproof, but the success rate will still be higher than when you're dodge rolling left and right. In fact, when ballgroups fight each other, you rarely see anyone dodge roll. This is for a good reason. I even know people who have unbound their dodge roll button to resist the impulse.
- Cover all the basics. You really don't have to turn into a ballgroup to become an unattractive target to them or even fight back, but would do well to cover some of the basics that ballgroups themselves also abide by: make sure you have well over 30k health (35k+ if possible). There are only a few builds where investing into a high main resource pool (mag or stam) pays off, but for the majority, you can just run 20k on your main resource and put the rest into health. This is important because if you have a 22k health bow ganker running in your group, a ballgroup essentially only has to kill that particular player in order to set off the VD chain reaction and wipe 10 of you at the same time. I know many casual guilds who no longer accept people in their group with less than 30k health. Other basics could include a snare removal such as Race Against Time, Shuffle or Phantasmal Escape, provided you aren't wearing Snow Treaders yourself. Also consider running Immobilization potions. Ballgroups often time their pushes around Immovability potions, so if you simply counter that by popping an immo potion every time they push, it'll be much harder for them to place you in the spot they want you to be with a pull set. You can also mount a much more effective counter-attack because you can push into them when they've spent their offensive ultimates, making it less dangerous for you to be close to them.

I hope that helps. As said, this isn't foolproof, but it should give you some concrete things to incorporate into your gameplay that will, if nothing else, make you more annoying to fight for ballgroups.

opethmaniac · March 11

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

Usually I agree if outside a keep, however when they are this big if left alone they would just take the keep and move on to the next one and so on...

Usually, ball groups are cowardly and only go into keeps when they are already about to be captured.
They don't attack keeps on their own initiative because they are very vulnerable to siege weapons and defenders when they aren't stuck together in their bunch.

So RealLoveBVB's advice is a good one.

Stridig · March 11

@Kartalin said it. All those things with constant pressure will do the trick. I've seen great success in GH the last couple weeks with the population actually engaging and winning. Both in keeps and in open field.

Deimus · March 11

Anything you're able to find that proves effective they'll hivemind zerg the forums and call for a nerf of it like the successful Azureblight brigade and failed Snake in the Stars brigade.

Best thing to do is just play IC or battlegrounds.The Vengeance test might be fun since it will force actual PvP, but until ZOS decides to seriously address them systemically by removing heal and shield stacking or make a campaign without them instead of adding a set that doesn't work it isn't worth dealing with the exploitative behavior and griefing.

Maybe ball groups are the way ZOS has implemented role playing a Necromancer with a horde of minions. A lich and a horde of zombies attained via a faustian bargain for power completely subjugated to their master's will from what they wear and slot to every step they're forced to take.

darvaria · March 11

The only fort that matters is Arrius. The balls rarely flip it. If they are on flags go up and drop oils. NEVER get in range of them. When a balls runs and turns they are going to ulti dump. I haven't been killed by a ball group in months. Always keep distance. If they are down you can drop oils. Or stand on outside walls and siege if they run around. NEVER try any spell that puts you in range.

Of course ZOS doesn't give anything that can really counter the balls. We had a gear set .. but that got nerfed. Repelling Explosion is okay IF you are a level above them. It's really too long of a cast to be useful in direct combat. And not really that useful but it does scatter them.

The key is NOT to ever die to a ball group. Stay out of range at all times. They end up leaving Arrius and other keeps as well. If you are at another keep they have flipped start sieging the inner fd or one of the posterns. The balls will leave and quite a few players hide until they leave and there is a weak inner so the fort can be recaptured fairly quickly.

ALWAYS have a quick port out ready to get away from them. Only the really stupid players keep running in and getting ulti dumped and bombed. The good thing is that's only about 7 or 8 players and their is a diminishing return on AP. I've seen videos where they get 500 plus kills but ap is like 2 or 3 per kill after they have been there a while.

And you can just say "*** the map" and leave the area. Most players don't care about a win anymore. Not worth getting run over by balls and standing on rams/repairing/flags to get bombed. Better not to be tied down by a group too.

Just don't expect ZOS to ever give a counter or nerf to bombers and ball groups.

xFocused · March 11

I'm seeing Siege mentioned a lot here. Siege does absolutely nothing when you have 12 players with 50k HP stacking MULTIPLE heals, shields and buffs

WaywardArgonian · March 11

xFocused wrote: »

I'm seeing Siege mentioned a lot here. Siege does absolutely nothing when you have 12 players with 50k HP stacking MULTIPLE heals, shields and buffs

Siege debuffs heals by a lot. Heal-stacking (not shield stacking) is the strongest survival tool in a ballgroup's kit. It also bypasses resistances. Ballgroups can't track siege debuffs. Siege is by far the biggest source of incoming damage in any ballgroup run. That you can't see a dent in their healthbar when you hit them with a single ballista doesn't prevent siege as a whole from adding a ton of pressure to ballgroups' defensive rotation. It absolutely does hurt ballgroups and anyone who plays in one will tell you that.

xFocused · March 11

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

I'm seeing Siege mentioned a lot here. Siege does absolutely nothing when you have 12 players with 50k HP stacking MULTIPLE heals, shields and buffs

Siege debuffs heals by a lot. Heal-stacking (not shield stacking) is the strongest survival tool in a ballgroup's kit. It also bypasses resistances. Ballgroups can't track siege debuffs. Siege is by far the biggest source of incoming damage in any ballgroup run. That you can't see a dent in their healthbar when you hit them with a single ballista doesn't prevent siege as a whole from adding a ton of pressure to ballgroups' defensive rotation. It absolutely does hurt ballgroups and anyone who plays in one will tell you that.

I’ve played in multiple ball groups and I can tell you firsthand that siege was never a major issue, not when you have multiple siege shields in your group. Biggest things that tend to wipe a comped group is stacked negates or the annoying scripts that knock you back off the walls

WaywardArgonian · March 11

xFocused wrote: »

I’ve played in multiple ball groups and I can tell you firsthand that siege was never a major issue, not when you have multiple siege shields in your group. Biggest things that tend to wipe a comped group is stacked negates or the annoying scripts that knock you back off the walls

Well this does not correspond with the reality on PC/EU but good for you.

xFocused · March 11

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

I’ve played in multiple ball groups and I can tell you firsthand that siege was never a major issue, not when you have multiple siege shields in your group. Biggest things that tend to wipe a comped group is stacked negates or the annoying scripts that knock you back off the walls

Well this does not correspond with the reality on PC/EU but good for you.

You're right, it doesn't, it corresponds with the PS/NA server and speaking from first hand from being in these groups to fighting them, siege does absolutely nothing

darvaria · March 11

Siege because it always keeps you out of range. I didn't say it was a counter. BUT with siege when they do die, you get the ap.

Thumbless_Bot · March 11

Just turn around...

The people who try to fight them are only fueling their blood lust.Just don't.

Cyro is very big and there are other fights to be fought.

kiwi_tea · March 12

xFocused wrote: »

I'm seeing Siege mentioned a lot here. Siege does absolutely nothing when you have 12 players with 50k HP stacking MULTIPLE heals, shields and buffs

This is true the majority of the time. The investment it takes to make siege work, including timing and positioning is much, much harder for a disorganised group defending a keep to ever muster.

But the debuffs on siege are substantial, and an organised group that runs a spread out set up denying key choke points can either kill a ball, make them run away, or limit their options so that a bomber can get in on them. It generally takes:

Scattershot + Shock Lancer trained on group. 20% damage taken + potential Off Balance/15% damage taken. Potential Minor Vulnerability.
Meatbag - Slow, but the debuff is extremely valuable.
3-4 Fire Ballista trained on each key chokepoint (you don't even need Coldfire but it definitely helps)

Balls have responses in both Siege Shield and just running over siege users, but the fact that you can fire Fire Ballista at your feet definitely helps. The fire rate of 3-4 fire ballista is what really makes siege work. Balls tend to panic when they realise they are running INTO massive DOT pressure, and I've had balls half-wipe when trying to push 4 continually firing ballista. This set up will - a LOT of the time - either see the ball gradually wipe bit-by-bit, and very often will see the ball jump out of a keep and just leave. ESPECIALLY if a couple of sorcs also have Negate and/or someone has a nasty RoA bomber.

Only guild groups are capable of this level of organisation. Even then, most guild groups AREN'T apparently capable of this level of organisation.

WaywardArgonian · March 12

xFocused wrote: »

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

I’ve played in multiple ball groups and I can tell you firsthand that siege was never a major issue, not when you have multiple siege shields in your group. Biggest things that tend to wipe a comped group is stacked negates or the annoying scripts that knock you back off the walls

Well this does not correspond with the reality on PC/EU but good for you.

You're right, it doesn't, it corresponds with the PS/NA server and speaking from first hand from being in these groups to fighting them, siege does absolutely nothing

The level of organized play on PC is higher. The fact that EU has guild groups which are able to coordinate siege in such a way that it does impact ballgroups shows that it can be an effective part of fighting them. But as someone else said, it requires that sort of coordination to work, and trying to 1v12 a ballgroup with siege will indeed amount to little.

Turtle_Bot · March 12

There used to be a set that did this when players built their group specifically around the set (something that left them very vulnerable to zergs, solos, bombers and every other playstyle that was not a ball group).

The set is called Azureblight.

Unfortunately, due to the set (when built around) actually doing it's intended niche job of dealing significant damage over time to very tightly stacked groups, a very small minority of ball group players cried (and lied) very loudly and got the set completely deleted from PvP, so now PuGs are stuck with only 1 true option left to counter ball groups:

Exit Cyrodiil by any means possible.

Veinblood1965 · March 12

xFocused wrote: »

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

I'm seeing Siege mentioned a lot here. Siege does absolutely nothing when you have 12 players with 50k HP stacking MULTIPLE heals, shields and buffs

Siege debuffs heals by a lot. Heal-stacking (not shield stacking) is the strongest survival tool in a ballgroup's kit. It also bypasses resistances. Ballgroups can't track siege debuffs. Siege is by far the biggest source of incoming damage in any ballgroup run. That you can't see a dent in their healthbar when you hit them with a single ballista doesn't prevent siege as a whole from adding a ton of pressure to ballgroups' defensive rotation. It absolutely does hurt ballgroups and anyone who plays in one will tell you that.

I’ve played in multiple ball groups and I can tell you firsthand that siege was never a major issue, not when you have multiple siege shields in your group. Biggest things that tend to wipe a comped group is stacked negates or the annoying scripts that knock you back off the walls

I scribed a spell last night for destruction staff, has a 41 m range, pushes them, stuns and debuffs. Told my guild about it also. It should be effective to knock them off the sides of the keep up top.

I appreciate all the feedback, if this continues to be a problem we'll be using this and also a lot more siege.

JanTanhide · March 12

Sounds like you and your guild had a ton of fun fighting them!
I see nothing wrong with players utilizing what's in the game to play the game. Seems like way too many people want easy fights and kills against lone or small groups of players instead of fighting a group of people coordinated to wreak havoc.

I think the best way to fight a well coordinated group of players is with your own group of well coordinated players.

Joy_Division · March 12

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

I'm seeing Siege mentioned a lot here. Siege does absolutely nothing when you have 12 players with 50k HP stacking MULTIPLE heals, shields and buffs

Siege debuffs heals by a lot. Heal-stacking (not shield stacking) is the strongest survival tool in a ballgroup's kit. It also bypasses resistances. Ballgroups can't track siege debuffs. Siege is by far the biggest source of incoming damage in any ballgroup run. That you can't see a dent in their healthbar when you hit them with a single ballista doesn't prevent siege as a whole from adding a ton of pressure to ballgroups' defensive rotation. It absolutely does hurt ballgroups and anyone who plays in one will tell you that.

I’ve played in multiple ball groups and I can tell you firsthand that siege was never a major issue, not when you have multiple siege shields in your group. Biggest things that tend to wipe a comped group is stacked negates or the annoying scripts that knock you back off the walls

I scribed a spell last night for destruction staff, has a 41 m range, pushes them, stuns and debuffs. Told my guild about it also. It should be effective to knock them off the sides of the keep up top.

I appreciate all the feedback, if this continues to be a problem we'll be using this and also a lot more siege.

That won't work.

The devs intended on the Destro scribed skill and Trample to be counters to ball groups (effects like heal debuffs, removal of shields, etc.), but because they don't realize that a two second cast time in which you have to pre-aim a skill cannot possibly hit a ball group who is at speed cap and uses an AoE pull set.

These sorts of skills only work when there are so many other alliance mates around you, the ball group might not target you during the cast-time, which really means it is the overwhelming numbers that are the counter to ball groups, not these actual skills.

The same is true for siege. When the BG has so many other targets, yes, people can place down a meatbag and hope the BG runs into where they are shooting, but that can only work again with numbers.

If the ball group is actually good and your guild wants to fight them on something like even terms or without relying on having larger numbers, you pretty much have to use them same tactics as a ball group: complimentary sets, pulls, coordinated PBAoE damage, lots of heals/support, etc.

Major_Mangle · March 12

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

There used to be a set that did this when players built their group specifically around the set (something that left them very vulnerable to zergs, solos, bombers and every other playstyle that was not a ball group).

The set is called Azureblight.

Unfortunately, due to the set (when built around) actually doing it's intended niche job of dealing significant damage over time to very tightly stacked groups, a very small minority of ball group players cried (and lied) very loudly and got the set completely deleted from PvP, so now PuGs are stuck with only 1 true option left to counter ball groups:
Exit Cyrodiil by any means possible.

#bringbackazureblight

Veinblood1965 · March 12

Joy_Division wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

I'm seeing Siege mentioned a lot here. Siege does absolutely nothing when you have 12 players with 50k HP stacking MULTIPLE heals, shields and buffs

Siege debuffs heals by a lot. Heal-stacking (not shield stacking) is the strongest survival tool in a ballgroup's kit. It also bypasses resistances. Ballgroups can't track siege debuffs. Siege is by far the biggest source of incoming damage in any ballgroup run. That you can't see a dent in their healthbar when you hit them with a single ballista doesn't prevent siege as a whole from adding a ton of pressure to ballgroups' defensive rotation. It absolutely does hurt ballgroups and anyone who plays in one will tell you that.

I’ve played in multiple ball groups and I can tell you firsthand that siege was never a major issue, not when you have multiple siege shields in your group. Biggest things that tend to wipe a comped group is stacked negates or the annoying scripts that knock you back off the walls

I scribed a spell last night for destruction staff, has a 41 m range, pushes them, stuns and debuffs. Told my guild about it also. It should be effective to knock them off the sides of the keep up top.

I appreciate all the feedback, if this continues to be a problem we'll be using this and also a lot more siege.

That won't work.

The devs intended on the Destro scribed skill and Trample to be counters to ball groups (effects like heal debuffs, removal of shields, etc.), but because they don't realize that a two second cast time in which you have to pre-aim a skill cannot possibly hit a ball group who is at speed cap and uses an AoE pull set.

These sorts of skills only work when there are so many other alliance mates around you, the ball group might not target you during the cast-time, which really means it is the overwhelming numbers that are the counter to ball groups, not these actual skills.

The same is true for siege. When the BG has so many other targets, yes, people can place down a meatbag and hope the BG runs into where they are shooting, but that can only work again with numbers.

If the ball group is actually good and your guild wants to fight them on something like even terms or without relying on having larger numbers, you pretty much have to use them same tactics as a ball group: complimentary sets, pulls, coordinated PBAoE damage, lots of heals/support, etc.

I didn't notice the two second cast time but it I usually just highlight one of them so I can see where they are at behind walls.
On the top floor I can just wait till they are coming and time it right. Once they fall off they can't get back in lol.

That does suck though, why a two second cast time?

Veinblood1965 · March 12

JanTanhide wrote: »

Sounds like you and your guild had a ton of fun fighting them!
I see nothing wrong with players utilizing what's in the game to play the game. Seems like way too many people want easy fights and kills against lone or small groups of players instead of fighting a group of people coordinated to wreak havoc.

I think the best way to fight a well coordinated group of players is with your own group of well coordinated players.

Actually yes, it was a pain, but kind of interesting to find a way to beat them. Looking forward to seeing them again soon.

xFocused · March 12

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

There used to be a set that did this when players built their group specifically around the set (something that left them very vulnerable to zergs, solos, bombers and every other playstyle that was not a ball group).

The set is called Azureblight.

Unfortunately, due to the set (when built around) actually doing it's intended niche job of dealing significant damage over time to very tightly stacked groups, a very small minority of ball group players cried (and lied) very loudly and got the set completely deleted from PvP, so now PuGs are stuck with only 1 true option left to counter ball groups:
Exit Cyrodiil by any means possible.

#bringbackazureblight

Make snake in the stars viable again too.

Major_Mangle · March 12

xFocused wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

There used to be a set that did this when players built their group specifically around the set (something that left them very vulnerable to zergs, solos, bombers and every other playstyle that was not a ball group).

The set is called Azureblight.

Unfortunately, due to the set (when built around) actually doing it's intended niche job of dealing significant damage over time to very tightly stacked groups, a very small minority of ball group players cried (and lied) very loudly and got the set completely deleted from PvP, so now PuGs are stuck with only 1 true option left to counter ball groups:
Exit Cyrodiil by any means possible.

#bringbackazureblight

Make snake in the stars viable again too.

Snake in the stars is one of the best DPS sets in the game (for PvP) during the right conditions, just not vs large groups.

xFocused · March 12

Major_Mangle wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

There used to be a set that did this when players built their group specifically around the set (something that left them very vulnerable to zergs, solos, bombers and every other playstyle that was not a ball group).

The set is called Azureblight.

Unfortunately, due to the set (when built around) actually doing it's intended niche job of dealing significant damage over time to very tightly stacked groups, a very small minority of ball group players cried (and lied) very loudly and got the set completely deleted from PvP, so now PuGs are stuck with only 1 true option left to counter ball groups:
Exit Cyrodiil by any means possible.

#bringbackazureblight

Make snake in the stars viable again too.

Snake in the stars is one of the best DPS sets in the game (for PvP) during the right conditions, just not vs large groups.

Which is a shame because originally it was designed to be a counter to large groups or comped groups but it was killed almost immediately on the PTS