Why can't we nerf Rush of Agony?

xylena_lazarow · March 2

RebornV3x wrote: »

Recently a guild mate of mine recommend the set Nibenay Bay Battlereeve which gives you a damage shield if your forcefully pulled. Haven't really looked into building around this set since I don't pvp and when I do its very casual now days.

There's nothing to build around, the effect is way too narrow, there are better defensive 2pc sets. It's a poorly designed bandaid that I guess is okay for helping casual players survive solo bombers or weaker groups.

TechMaybeHic · March 2

I believe Nibenay also has a longer CD than ROA. ROA is amazingly bloated even if it functions right and if it would give CC immunity

Thumbless_Bot · March 3

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I believe Nibenay also has a longer CD than ROA. ROA is amazingly bloated even if it functions right and if it would give CC immunity

Every 14 seconds. So you get one shield per about 2 pulls from roa.

This is a red herring and apologetics for the set.

Having a counter to something doesn't mean it isn't broken.

Turtle_Bot · March 3

I've ran Nibenay before, it doesn't do anything to counter RoA and still wouldn't be enough even if it's cooldown was the same as RoA and not double RoA's cooldown...

Best case scenario with Nibenay is you die 0.001s later from the 3rd VD chain proc of that bomb/pull instead of the 2nd. Outside of that scenario, the set is abysmal, granting ~1-2% mitigation due to mitigation having diminishing returns in ESO, meaning at most the set grants 2.5% mitigation (assuming zero other mitigation outside of armor) and this is at the cost of any of the better monster sets or arena weapon...

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Every 14 seconds. So you get one shield per about 2 pulls from roa.

And this is only if there is 1 single user of Rush, which completely ignores one of the issues that Rush doesn't have a global cooldown on affecting targets which makes it possible to be pulled when Rush is supposed to be on cooldown.

El_Borracho · March 3

Yeah! Azureblight is the worst! Its OP! The devs just want us to suffer! I'm going to quit the game unless Azureblight is nerfed! Azureblight is not only ruining PVP, its ruining my life!

Oh, what's that? Azureblight was last year. We're talking about Rush of Agony now? Hmmm. Well, just swap out the set name because its the same argument. All the time.

xylena_lazarow · March 3

El_Borracho wrote: »

Yeah! Azureblight is the worst! Its OP! The devs just want us to suffer! I'm going to quit the game unless Azureblight is nerfed! Azureblight is not only ruining PVP, its ruining my life!

Oh, what's that? Azureblight was last year. We're talking about Rush of Agony now? Hmmm. Well, just swap out the set name because its the same argument. All the time.

Yeah! Hunding's Rage is the worst! Its OP! The devs just want us to suffer! I'm going to quit the game unless Hunding's Rage is nerfed! Hunding's Rage is not only ruining PVP, its ruining my life!

Oh, what's that? Hunding's Rage was last year. We're talking about Rush of Agony now? Hmmm. Well, just swap out the set name because its the same argument. All the time. (No it's not).

El_Borracho · March 3

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Yeah! Azureblight is the worst! Its OP! The devs just want us to suffer! I'm going to quit the game unless Azureblight is nerfed! Azureblight is not only ruining PVP, its ruining my life!

Oh, what's that? Azureblight was last year. We're talking about Rush of Agony now? Hmmm. Well, just swap out the set name because its the same argument. All the time.

Yeah! Hunding's Rage is the worst! Its OP! The devs just want us to suffer! I'm going to quit the game unless Hunding's Rage is nerfed! Hunding's Rage is not only ruining PVP, its ruining my life!

Oh, what's that? Hunding's Rage was last year. We're talking about Rush of Agony now? Hmmm. Well, just swap out the set name because its the same argument. All the time. (No it's not).

Yes. It is. To the point its these identical arguments, every single time. Threads calling for nerfs in last year alone: ROA, Azureblight, Mara's Balm, Way of Fire, Pyrebrand, Plague Slinger, Hrothgar, Masters DW, Vateshran Ice Staff, Snake in the Stars (LOL), Knight Slayer (LOL again), Unfathomable Darkness (oh, those mean birds!), and even Wretched Vitaliy, a sustain set. But we're supposed to believe the sky is falling every time and this is not just someone upset because they died in PVP.

Speaking of Way of Fire, it was released almost 11 years ago. Yet it didn't catch on for the first 10 years of its existence. Then, all of a sudden, threads filled with players fuming over a 10 year old set pop up last year. How did that happen? Probably a coincidence that dozens of sets that were once useful in PVP were wrecked by threads like these, which elevated mediocre sets that were forgotten. Nah, more like an entire player base simply discovered a 10 year old set too late, right?

When players are not upset about a set killing them, they are bemoaning the evils of the ball group. "How can we stop this scourge on the game?" Then they are given a set like Azure or ROA or Plague Slinger that works to increase damage if there are more enemies around. You'll never guess what happens next.

But if the nerf trend continues, maybe you can be the first to say that Hundlings is OP and needs to be removed from the game.

Arrow312 · March 4

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I've ran Nibenay before, it doesn't do anything to counter RoA and still wouldn't be enough even if it's cooldown was the same as RoA and not double RoA's cooldown...

Best case scenario with Nibenay is you die 0.001s later from the 3rd VD chain proc of that bomb/pull instead of the 2nd. Outside of that scenario, the set is abysmal, granting ~1-2% mitigation due to mitigation having diminishing returns in ESO, meaning at most the set grants 2.5% mitigation (assuming zero other mitigation outside of armor) and this is at the cost of any of the better monster sets or arena weapon...

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Every 14 seconds. So you get one shield per about 2 pulls from roa.

And this is only if there is 1 single user of Rush, which completely ignores one of the issues that Rush doesn't have a global cooldown on affecting targets which makes it possible to be pulled when Rush is supposed to be on cooldown.

Even when you are block the RoA Combo e.g. block and pod you will die because 3 or ppl aorund you explode. I made it once to survive the combo but then got 3 VD in recap.

Best way to counter...when a BGs drop their combo run with a few bomber in them and bomb them. On defensive bar BGs nearly unkillable but on offensive bar you have a small chance.

RealLoveBVB · March 4

Arrow312 wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I've ran Nibenay before, it doesn't do anything to counter RoA and still wouldn't be enough even if it's cooldown was the same as RoA and not double RoA's cooldown...

Best case scenario with Nibenay is you die 0.001s later from the 3rd VD chain proc of that bomb/pull instead of the 2nd. Outside of that scenario, the set is abysmal, granting ~1-2% mitigation due to mitigation having diminishing returns in ESO, meaning at most the set grants 2.5% mitigation (assuming zero other mitigation outside of armor) and this is at the cost of any of the better monster sets or arena weapon...

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Every 14 seconds. So you get one shield per about 2 pulls from roa.

And this is only if there is 1 single user of Rush, which completely ignores one of the issues that Rush doesn't have a global cooldown on affecting targets which makes it possible to be pulled when Rush is supposed to be on cooldown.

Even when you are block the RoA Combo e.g. block and pod you will die because 3 or ppl aorund you explode. I made it once to survive the combo but then got 3 VD in recap.

This means, that it didn't matter, that RoA was used there. You was just staying to stacked with other allies.
Time for a "nerf VD" thread it seems.

Arrow312 · March 4

VD is fine the Combo at itself is the Problem. Before RoA you could easily block DC and done. Now you get pulled by RoA into a stun. Only alternative is to stay far away from Combat and let them Farm. Today i blocked 3 Combos of it. Dunno why BGs on PC Farm solo Player. The whole BG Thing need to rework

RealLoveBVB · March 5

You said you blocked the pull, but still died to exploding players around you. This means the RoA pull was not needed at all, as you were in VD proc range already. You would have died, even if they wouldn't have used RoA in your described situation.

Arrow312 · March 5

i blocked the pull an the other Combo and died by a VD proc. RoA was need to pull me togehter with other players without RoA i was out of range. On my screen i was out of range and was pulled behind a pillar.

As long as you can pull players together and CC them, too there will be no balance in the game. Before RoA you need a hard CC for stun and get close to the enemy now you jump or rush on them and pull them together. Add CC immunity to RoA and everything is fine.

I played a long time in a ballgroup and know that RoA makes things a lot easier as it was. Before RoA you had one stun and need snares or soft CC. Now with RoA you can pull and then you can place the stun.

Tbf RoA is not the only problem it is a little part of problem. The problem is the whole design they make. In a full Ballgroup with everthing you need you are unkillable. you get twice the weapon and spell damage, ulti regen is to easy, healing and shielding is on a point where nobody can do anything against it.

Ballgroups was never strong like now. On the other hand you have players who dont know what to do. For me it is a design and l2p issue. and nerf healing will only affect those who will need it the most.

ercknn · March 8

El_Borracho wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Yeah! Azureblight is the worst! Its OP! The devs just want us to suffer! I'm going to quit the game unless Azureblight is nerfed! Azureblight is not only ruining PVP, its ruining my life!

Oh, what's that? Azureblight was last year. We're talking about Rush of Agony now? Hmmm. Well, just swap out the set name because its the same argument. All the time.

Yeah! Hunding's Rage is the worst! Its OP! The devs just want us to suffer! I'm going to quit the game unless Hunding's Rage is nerfed! Hunding's Rage is not only ruining PVP, its ruining my life!

Oh, what's that? Hunding's Rage was last year. We're talking about Rush of Agony now? Hmmm. Well, just swap out the set name because its the same argument. All the time. (No it's not).

Yes. It is. To the point its these identical arguments, every single time. Threads calling for nerfs in last year alone: ROA, Azureblight, Mara's Balm, Way of Fire, Pyrebrand, Plague Slinger, Hrothgar, Masters DW, Vateshran Ice Staff, Snake in the Stars (LOL), Knight Slayer (LOL again), Unfathomable Darkness (oh, those mean birds!), and even Wretched Vitaliy, a sustain set. But we're supposed to believe the sky is falling every time and this is not just someone upset because they died in PVP.

Speaking of Way of Fire, it was released almost 11 years ago. Yet it didn't catch on for the first 10 years of its existence. Then, all of a sudden, threads filled with players fuming over a 10 year old set pop up last year. How did that happen? Probably a coincidence that dozens of sets that were once useful in PVP were wrecked by threads like these, which elevated mediocre sets that were forgotten. Nah, more like an entire player base simply discovered a 10 year old set too late, right?

When players are not upset about a set killing them, they are bemoaning the evils of the ball group. "How can we stop this scourge on the game?" Then they are given a set like Azure or ROA or Plague Slinger that works to increase damage if there are more enemies around. You'll never guess what happens next.

But if the nerf trend continues, maybe you can be the first to say that Hundlings is OP and needs to be removed from the game.

What’s the name of your ball group? RoA is similar to other broken sets in the past but I don’t think any sets have made bombing or ball groups able to Xv1 solo players as well as RoA.

Azura blight should have never been nerfed for PvP. Only PvE. Or at least revamped for battle spirit to destroying ball groups completely, as with any respectable game there should always be counter play.

If they made the play style of ball groups a higher skill ceiling it would be a commendable play style. But pressing two buttons and getting insane off heals from polar wind wardens make this type of play extremely unappealing for an advanced player with an adaptable build. It’s another way decreasing the skill gap between a casual player and an advanced one.

xylena_lazarow · March 8

ercknn wrote: »

But pressing two buttons and getting insane off heals from polar wind wardens make this type of play extremely unappealing for an advanced player with an adaptable build. It’s another way decreasing the skill gap between a casual player and an advanced one.

Giving organized sweatlords an easy playstyle massively increases the gap. They don't even need to try to play optimally, no risk from mistakes. The sweatlords get bored of pressing 2 buttons and quit for a better team PvP game.

The casuals rage quit because they can't do the 300 apm dance needed to survive multiples pulls and fears suddenly going off because some ball groupers 34m behind them off screen pressed 2 buttons.

Stamicka · March 8

For years and years the only pulls in PvP had to be aimed at the player and only pulled a single person at a time. We really didn’t need AOE pulls and DEFINITELY not AoE pulls that don’t grant CC immunity. The game was just fine (much better even) before AoE pull sets were introduced. I bet there’s a significant amount of people who quit PvP solely because dark convergence and Rush of Agony ruined their experience.

I also can’t imagine that this set made a good impression on people who were trying out PvP for the first time during double AP. I’m guessing they had an even worse time than I had.

Forget whether or not this set is “balanced”, it’s just not fun and it’s unhealthy for PvP.

MasterSpatula · March 8

Stamicka wrote: »

I bet there’s a significant amount of people who quit PvP solely because dark convergence and Rush of Agony ruined their experience.

My guild's weekly PVP night, going back years, ended about two weeks after DC was introduced. The first week, we tried it out, had a whole bunch of people leave early. The second week, less than half our usual cohort showed up. We made a halfhearted attempt. No one even mentioned PVP night the third week.

Thumbless_Bot · March 9

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

I bet there’s a significant amount of people who quit PvP solely because dark convergence and Rush of Agony ruined their experience.

My guild's weekly PVP night, going back years, ended about two weeks after DC was introduced. The first week, we tried it out, had a whole bunch of people leave early. The second week, less than half our usual cohort showed up. We made a halfhearted attempt. No one even mentioned PVP night the third week.

Dark Convergence and Rush of Agony have turned competitve pvp in this game into a carnival sideshow.

More often than not i leave bgs when someone is wearing either set. These sets are the single, singular, only reason I don't play cyro outside of events.

Friendly-assasin81 · May 10

Is this the 12meters in the tooltip? It looks more than that. And it pulls when streaking, dodgerolling and blocking....
It really needs a nerf, at leas a smaller area.
I play in cyro almost every night. And some nights there are these ballgroups running around with a scroll and just farming/killing people that want to actually play the objective.... These nights are horrible and many of us quit early because of it.
And no, i dont hate bombers or ballgroups. But RoA has to be broken for it to do what it does. Nerf it and get more people happy than just the "special" ballgroups...

Orbital78 · May 10

They said they were addressing it eventually, but I haven't seen any mention on PTS.

LPapirius · May 10

ZOS appears to be focusing all their PvP efforts into some form of vengeance mode and not putting any effort into fixing any issues with the current PvP system they already have.

Ostonoha · May 10

Friendly-assasin81 wrote: »

Is this the 12meters in the tooltip? It looks more than that. And it pulls when streaking, dodgerolling and blocking....
happy than just the "special" ballgroups...

You cannot dodge it. If the chains of ROA hit you and you streak away you will still be pulled back into it. You can only block the chains of ROA pulls once it is on you.

When it comes to the chains of ROA and distance it can pull. I have seen whacky situations where the chains pull very far due to the delay. Its a matter of how far you are when the proc (chain animation) hits and not where you are when the pull itself happens.

edited to add a video to show what i mean.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hZN4zsFq1o

xylena_lazarow · May 10

Ostonoha wrote: »

You cannot dodge it

This part always throws me, like on top of everything else they add yet another layer of "no counterplay allowed" to make it as brainless as possible. At least with subclassing everyone gets access to Streak, which means if you hold block in response to the chain, then immediately block cast Streak 2-3 times, you should be in the clear.

That said, I don't expect build Cyro to survive once Vengeance returns with the additional skill lines. Given a choice to PvP without having to deal with Rushing Agony or double spectral bows, that's what the majority of players will do.

Ostonoha · May 10

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Ostonoha wrote: »

You cannot dodge it

This part always throws me, like on top of everything else they add yet another layer of "no counterplay allowed" to make it as brainless as possible. At least with subclassing everyone gets access to Streak, which means if you hold block in response to the chain, then immediately block cast Streak 2-3 times, you should be in the clear.

That said, I don't expect build Cyro to survive once Vengeance returns with the additional skill lines. Given a choice to PvP without having to deal with Rushing Agony or double spectral bows, that's what the majority of players will do.

an argument can be made that half the builds of people in cyro for the past 5+ years of holding block only to burn siege and or sitting in keeps shooting siege waiting for 10x the numbers to push out could also be classified as brainless.

I do agree, but ill take it a step further by saying I do not think cyro will survive long term if Vengeance returns. I already hear people discussing leaving over subclassing.

In the end pvp is in a really bad spot and only going to get worse.

Joy_Division · May 10

Friendly-assasin81 wrote: »

Is this the 12meters in the tooltip? It looks more than that. And it pulls when streaking, dodgerolling and blocking....
It really needs a nerf, at leas a smaller area.

RoA has a delay, so where you get pulled to and pulled from is quite murky. We've all been pulled over 20 meters and even through walls, which ZOS has admitted to us there isn't anything they can do to prevent (yet they still seem to think having RoA pull us throw walls is a good idea).

That some people are defending this set which breaks probably the most important core rule of the game in CC immunity is insane. It just shows that quite a few people do not argue about balance in good faith or the overall health of the game. They are just concerned with how they can exploit mechanics to mercilessly farm and drive away the very people the health of Cyrodiil depends on. Then they wonder and complain when ZOS doesn't devote any resources to PvP.

katanagirl1 · May 10

I’ve gotten pretty good at blocking this set but it’s still busted. I just block all the time.

It pulls you off siege just like Dark Con used to, hasn’t been fixed yet as far as I know.

It’s 10 times worse than Dark Con yet the devs justify it somehow. Baffling.

Thumbless_Bot · May 11

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Ostonoha wrote: »

You cannot dodge it

This part always throws me, like on top of everything else they add yet another layer of "no counterplay allowed" to make it as brainless as possible. At least with subclassing everyone gets access to Streak, which means if you hold block in response to the chain, then immediately block cast Streak 2-3 times, you should be in the clear.

That said, I don't expect build Cyro to survive once Vengeance returns with the additional skill lines. Given a choice to PvP without having to deal with Rushing Agony or double spectral bows, that's what the majority of players will do.

... og cyro is a carnival side show because of these terrible sets. Aoe pull? Absolutely ridiculous.