Pet sorc should be weaker than no-pet sorc.

Booldi · February 26

It makes no sense that pet sorc is always the strongest option since it's easier mechanically compared to the no-pet variant.
In my opinion, it should be slightly weaker for the following reasons:

- Harder builds should be more rewarding.

- It would get rid of the annoying pet interactions in harder content.

- It would make sorc the perfect for learning and progressing towards harder builds: Okaen sorc -> Pet sorc -> No-pet sorc

Thoughts?

ajkb78 · February 26

In that case arcanist would be weak as. It's not. The game has never been designed to reward "harder" finger-dancing. In fact over the years numerous attempts have been introduced to reduce combat complexity and provide viable options for people who don't have centisecond-perfect reflexes or two thumbs. There's an argument to be had over whether the approach it right or not but it's clear that "harder rotation == more damage" is not ZoS's design intent for the game.

AcadianPaladin · February 26

Between how ugly the scamp is and how annoying miss flappy wings is, the pet sorc better be stronger. If the no pet sorc was as strong, I'd never put up with those pets. Even at that, I sometimes run my sorc with a no pet lineup and accept the lower damage to avoid the pet annoyance.

SilverBride · February 26

I have 2 Sorcerers. One uses the banekin pet only, and only has it out when doing combat. The other doesn't have any pets. Neither uses the annoying flappy pet.

The one with the pet is noticeably stronger. I don't know if one should be stronger than the other, though. I'd prefer to have both equally viable.

Renato90085 · February 26

I just feel It sound like nb not use killer blade or Necro not use bb..they main dps skill and they better...

BasP · February 26

While I'm not sure if a non-pet Sorcerer should necessarily be stronger, I do think that its DPS should be at least somewhat similar to that of a pet build. I definitely wouldn't mind it if skills such as Lightning Flood and Mages' Wrath would be adjusted so that they'd be more viable in PvE, for example.

sshogrin · February 26

I know quite a few people that have no-pet sorcs and can hit just as hard as a pet sorc.
I see a lot of no-pet sorcs in PvP that hit hard and aren't glass cannons.
This goes back to the nerfing of the lightening staff for Oakensoul.
The idea that a more difficult rotation should hit harder would put StamDKs at the top of the list for damage.
Arcanist would be nerfed all to hell, anything Oakensoul would be nerfed so bad that nobody would lead farm for it.

spartaxoxo · February 26

No. Pet sorcs have a lot less freedom in building because the skills must be double barred. Skills that cost more should hit harder.

No-Pet sorcs have more flexibility in their builds and can bring more skills to the table to deal with different situations.

Kahnak · February 27

Booldi wrote: »

It makes no sense that pet sorc is always the strongest option since it's easier mechanically compared to the no-pet variant.
In my opinion, it should be slightly weaker for the following reasons:

- Harder builds should be more rewarding.

- It would get rid of the annoying pet interactions in harder content.

- It would make sorc the perfect for learning and progressing towards harder builds: Okaen sorc -> Pet sorc -> No-pet sorc

Thoughts?

"- Harder builds should be more rewarding."

How are you defining 'harder build'? As many have stated, the builds that currently take the least effort in terms of APM are the ones out performing other builds by miles. If you take into account bar space, Pet-Sorc has the hardest time of all. It's one of the reasons why their AOE is so poor.

"- It would get rid of the annoying pet interactions in harder content."

What about using a pet ability is any different or more annoying than using a non-pet ability? How is using a pet ability in harder content any different or more annoying than using them in normal content?

"- It would make sorc the perfect for learning and progressing towards harder builds: Okaen sorc -> Pet sorc -> No-pet sorc"

Why does Sorc need to be perfect for learning and progressing to 'harder' builds? Fundamentally, it's not any easier to play than any other class, with the exception of Nightblade. Also, this is my opinion, but I don't think that Oakensorc should be a stop off for players learning how to play the game. It doesn't require any of the basic skills that are necessary for most other classes to do well i.e bar swapping, light attacking or juggling DOT timers. So, even if this person is able to do decent DPS, it will most certainly plateau eventually and then when they move on to DK or Templar they are back at square one learning how to even play the game.

katanagirl1 · February 27

For PvE dps no pet sorc should at be at least as strong but it is not.

Nestor · February 27

I won't use a Pet Sorcerer. The Twilight is too annoying. I know the Twilights can walk, I have seen them in game.

Anyway it would be nice if there was a buff to some sorcerer skills if no Pet is slotted for some parity.

ZhuJiuyin · February 27

I agree that pet-sorc should have a lower damage cap than nopet-sorc. But what I'm worried about is that sorc is currently at level S or A in PVP. Strengthening nopet-sorc may make sorc lose control in PVP.
However, sorc's floor-based AoE damage should really be buffed, as floor-based AoE damage has the least impact on PVP. And these floor-based area of effect damage are currently very low or even unused in PVE.

My suggestions are:
1. The Suppression Field and the Absorption Field need to be redone. The former should remove the silence effect, but cause more damage, and at the same time give Major Brittle, so that sorc has an ultimate ability option other than pet; while the latter should cause lower damage, and absorb a large amount of the treatment received by the target, so that it can solve some treatment stacking problems in PVP.
2. Lightning Splash should fix the animation delay and increase the damage by 10-15%, or increase the chance of giving Concussed. And while slotted on either ability bar gives Major Prophecy/Savagery.
3. Shattering Spines can give the target a 10-second continuous damage after causing damage, similar to the reverse version of Unstable Wall of Elements (first causing direct damage and then causing continuous damage), while making up for sorc's lack of sticky dots.
4.Daedric Tomb should be redone and turned into the sorc version of Scalding Rune.

the1andonlyskwex · February 27

Why should choosing not to use some of your class abilities for what are essentially roleplay reasons make you stronger?

katorga · February 27

If pets take up 4 skill slots, pet sorc should be stronger.

Renato90085 · February 27

Kahnak wrote: »

Booldi wrote: »

It makes no sense that pet sorc is always the strongest option since it's easier mechanically compared to the no-pet variant.
In my opinion, it should be slightly weaker for the following reasons:

- Harder builds should be more rewarding.

- It would get rid of the annoying pet interactions in harder content.

- It would make sorc the perfect for learning and progressing towards harder builds: Okaen sorc -> Pet sorc -> No-pet sorc

Thoughts?

"- Harder builds should be more rewarding."

How are you defining 'harder build'? As many have stated, the builds that currently take the least effort in terms of APM are the ones out performing other builds by miles. If you take into account bar space, Pet-Sorc has the hardest time of all. It's one of the reasons why their AOE is so poor.

"- It would get rid of the annoying pet interactions in harder content."

What about using a pet ability is any different or more annoying than using a non-pet ability? How is using a pet ability in harder content any different or more annoying than using them in normal content?

"- It would make sorc the perfect for learning and progressing towards harder builds: Okaen sorc -> Pet sorc -> No-pet sorc"

Why does Sorc need to be perfect for learning and progressing to 'harder' builds? Fundamentally, it's not any easier to play than any other class, with the exception of Nightblade. Also, this is my opinion, but I don't think that Oakensorc should be a stop off for players learning how to play the game. It doesn't require any of the basic skills that are necessary for most other classes to do well i.e bar swapping, light attacking or juggling DOT timers. So, even if this person is able to do decent DPS, it will most certainly plateau eventually and then when they move on to DK or Templar they are back at square one learning how to even play the game.

for me ,i main play mk sorc do endgame pve,sometime pet not work...skill cant cast but still wastes my magicka,attacking random enemies wastes my dps,die when i swim (Tideborn Taleria hm),start combat and we wipe because tank not swap they build(nb and warden have same bug)
because pet ai very stupid

BXR_Lonestar · February 27

SilverBride wrote: »

I have 2 Sorcerers. One uses the banekin pet only, and only has it out when doing combat. The other doesn't have any pets. Neither uses the annoying flappy pet.

The one with the pet is noticeably stronger. I don't know if one should be stronger than the other, though. I'd prefer to have both equally viable.

It all has to do with the build.

I run a 2 pet 1 bar Heavy Attack sorc and hit around 80k dps on mine.

One of my guildies runs a 1 bar no-pet HA sorc and he hits closer to 90-95k on his.

I rely on my pets being a distraction and the matriarch heal to keep myself alive. He relies on hardened ward and crit surge to keep himself alive.

If I was trying to be a sweaty PVE DPS, I would probably swap to the no pet build to get more damage out of it, but the reality is that 80k dps on a 2 pet build is more than plenty for what I do with him, which is basically do easy/fast farming runs with not a lot of maelstrom shuffle. That extra 10k DPS is not going to make a gigantic difference in terms of what I do with him.

DenverRalphy · February 27

No Pet sorcs have insanely easy survivability. While Pet Sorcs have substantially good survivability too, it's nothing compared to the No-Pet sorc. If Pet Sorcs were to see a damage reduction, then No-Pet sorcs should also lose the Healing component of Hardened Ward.

Ezhh · February 27

DenverRalphy wrote: »

No Pet sorcs have insanely easy survivability. While Pet Sorcs have substantially good survivability too, it's nothing compared to the No-Pet sorc. If Pet Sorcs were to see a damage reduction, then No-Pet sorcs should also lose the Healing component of Hardened Ward.

If you are taking about PvE for trials and dungeons.... no. Because an optimal build means you slot skills aiming for as much dps as possible. If you don't use pets you don't slot heals in their place. You slot damage skills. Otherwise you have a build that's better suited for more casual content and either way a poor measure of what can be done on pet vs non pet. And sorc on an optimal dps build for trials, pets or not, has very little built in healing and doesn't slot the shield in most content.

If you mean PvP... non pet is better overall simple because you need the slots and the pets are pretty unhelpful there.

Personally I want a non-pet PvE build that is NOT HA focused or one bar that I can take into trials (preferably as a full parse DD) without effectively trolling my team. Yet even with pets, sorc misses out on too much damage - cleave specifically - to be of consideration for any serious group, outside of occasional use as a support DD.

I get the whole argument that to hit the max potential of your class you should be prepared to use any skill the class has, and I would be... But the tormentor is too visually annoying. If I run it for too long, the animation always leaves me feeling a bit queasy and I've had to use workarounds (hide group) to handle that for years. If they'd give us an alternative model for the pet, while I'd still prefer a good no pet option, it would fix the main problem for me.

I used to think the difference between pet and non-pet should be single target vs AoE focus builds, but now we get Arcanist that has both in one very simple build - in mostly one skill in fact. Isn't it time to give sorc some reasonable cleave damage? I'm sure with a few skill changes non pet sorc could find a spot there.

DenverRalphy · February 27

Ezhh wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

No Pet sorcs have insanely easy survivability. While Pet Sorcs have substantially good survivability too, it's nothing compared to the No-Pet sorc. If Pet Sorcs were to see a damage reduction, then No-Pet sorcs should also lose the Healing component of Hardened Ward.

If you are taking about PvE for trials and dungeons.... no. Because an optimal build means you slot skills aiming for as much dps as possible. If you don't use pets you don't slot heals in their place. You slot damage skills. Otherwise you have a build that's better suited for more casual content and either way a poor measure of what can be done on pet vs non pet. And sorc on an optimal dps build for trials, pets or not, has very little built in healing and doesn't slot the shield in most content.

If you're going for optimal DPS build in a Trial/Dungeon, then the optimal choice would simply be to go Pet Sorc. That's just how the class is designed. Pets advantage is damage, No Pets advantage is survivability. The player chooses a build to suit the situation, and changing the design would just water down the class.

Ezhh · February 27

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Ezhh wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

No Pet sorcs have insanely easy survivability. While Pet Sorcs have substantially good survivability too, it's nothing compared to the No-Pet sorc. If Pet Sorcs were to see a damage reduction, then No-Pet sorcs should also lose the Healing component of Hardened Ward.

If you are taking about PvE for trials and dungeons.... no. Because an optimal build means you slot skills aiming for as much dps as possible. If you don't use pets you don't slot heals in their place. You slot damage skills. Otherwise you have a build that's better suited for more casual content and either way a poor measure of what can be done on pet vs non pet. And sorc on an optimal dps build for trials, pets or not, has very little built in healing and doesn't slot the shield in most content.

If you're going for optimal DPS build in a Trial/Dungeon, then the optimal choice would simply be to go Pet Sorc. That's just how the class is designed. Pets advantage is damage, No Pets advantage is survivability. The player chooses a build to suit the situation.

Which perfectly highlights the issue: Survivability is not needed for a PvE DD in any kind of proper group (with some rare exceptions in the absolute hardest content, and then arcanist does it better anyway). It wouldn't matter if non pet sorc was 20 times more survivable than pet sorc (it's not) because pet sorc already has all the survivability needed for PvE. The only thing that is meaningful here is damage output. We shouldn't deny based on something that in that environment is meaningless.

We can also flip your argument around: pet sorcs can slot shield and matriarch (a heal ability that does passive damage) as well. A non pet sorc can't equal the number of heals a pet sorc can slot unless they basically become a healer instead of a damage dealer. Meanwhile pet sorc can get away with healing while keeping up damage more easily than non pet simply because pet sorc damage is more passive and less dependent on global cooldowns. Non pet simply can't compete unless utility (things like streak and self buffs) are needed, and in organised PvE groups they are not. (They are in PvP, which is part of why PvP is a different story.)

The only convincing argument I've ever seen for why non pet sorc doing less damage is acceptable is that a player should be willing to utilise all their class skills and refusing to can lead to lower dps, but I already explain why this is problematic to me and how it could be fixed. Still hoping one day skill styles fix it.

Arizona_Steve · February 27

No-pet sorc should be stronger, simply to get rid of the twilights that flap around everywhere.

CalamityCat · February 27

I think it should be equal whether you have pets or not. I don't think many players are keen on how the pets look but I don't think the power should be weighted towards having or not having pets.

I would love to have alternative forms for the sorc pets as they're ugly and I hate having a flying pet in my face while I'm fighting. Also make the base game default to unsummon the sorc and warden pets when players enter towns/crafting areas. I've used add ons and manually dismissed them, but I think it would be less annoying for non wardens/sorcs if our pets weren't all over the cities.

SilverBride · February 27

CalamityCat wrote: »

...I think it would be less annoying for non wardens/sorcs if our pets weren't all over the cities.

I have 2 Sorcerers and it would be a lot less annoying for me, too.

Juomuuri · February 27

I have 4 sorcerers (stamsorc, oakensorc, healsorc, tanksorc) and I don't mind the pets at all, I just filter them out. The flappy bird sometimes annoys me when she's cutting into my camera, but otherwise they're pretty much nonexistent to me. Tanksorc is my favorite tank class and I enjoy my clannfear, a very useful heal. And the flappy is super nice to have on a healsorc. Would be cool if other people's pets were hidden in cities just like with companions, as I can already hide mine if I need.

Ishtarknows · February 27

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Skills that cost more should hit harder.

Pets, once summoned do damage for free. They should do less damage by your reckoning?

Varana · February 27

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Ezhh wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

No Pet sorcs have insanely easy survivability. While Pet Sorcs have substantially good survivability too, it's nothing compared to the No-Pet sorc. If Pet Sorcs were to see a damage reduction, then No-Pet sorcs should also lose the Healing component of Hardened Ward.

If you are taking about PvE for trials and dungeons.... no. Because an optimal build means you slot skills aiming for as much dps as possible. If you don't use pets you don't slot heals in their place. You slot damage skills. Otherwise you have a build that's better suited for more casual content and either way a poor measure of what can be done on pet vs non pet. And sorc on an optimal dps build for trials, pets or not, has very little built in healing and doesn't slot the shield in most content.

If you're going for optimal DPS build in a Trial/Dungeon, then the optimal choice would simply be to go Pet Sorc. That's just how the class is designed. Pets advantage is damage, No Pets advantage is survivability. The player chooses a build to suit the situation, and changing the design would just water down the class.

And the point is that some disagree that that's how it should be designed.

At some point, years ago, no-pet sorc was both viable and even preferable in PvE content. That design is not inherent or god-given, it is a choice (how deliberate or not, depends on how competent you believe ZOS to be).

At that time, the issue was the other way around - there was little reason to run pets. I don't think that's a good spot to be in, either. But there should be some form of equality.

I really wish there was a way to have a competitive no-pet damage build for sorcerers. I hate the pets. They're ugly, have annoying visuals and audio, and make the class boring.

BretonMage · February 27

They don't really do damage "for free", since they take up 2 slots per bar, their standard zaps are only a fraction of a player's normal abilities, and their special abilities still need to be activated.

Additionally, the player also needs to manage these pets, as they can die.

I like using them for the distraction and heals, as others have mentioned.

spartaxoxo · February 27

Ishtarknows wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Skills that cost more should hit harder.

Pets, once summoned do damage for free. They should do less damage by your reckoning?

They take four slots. So, no, that's the opposite of what I stated. Very few skills require double barring. That is a constant and huge cost. They are never free. They are some of the highest cost abilities in the game.

Orbital78 · February 27

I only use the matriarch pet most of the time doing all vet content. I disagree, they should be equally powerful. Removing the cast time on dark deal would be a good start, like :https://eso-hub.com/en/skills/nightblade/siphoning/siphoning-strikes .

Supreme_Atromancer · February 28

Booldi wrote: »

It makes no sense that pet sorc is always the strongest option since it's easier mechanically compared to the no-pet variant.
In my opinion, it should be slightly weaker for the following reasons:

- Harder builds should be more rewarding.

I love running with twilight. Its awesome. Why wouldn't I just argue that they should make pet sorcs the more technically harder build, and make no-pet-sorc builds easy, beginner builds?

Because that would really suck. For you. You wouldn't want to see your preferred build relegated to beginner friendly and underpowered. Neither would I.

I'd be cool with a walking twilight that flies when you're running.

Varana · February 28

Pet sorc isn't

Ishtarknows wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Skills that cost more should hit harder.

Pets, once summoned do damage for free. They should do less damage by your reckoning?

Not only do they take away 4 slots, as others have pointed out, so they're not doing damage "for free".

They also actually take away a 5th slot that you have to actively manage with comparatively short recasts - pet damage plummets severely if you don't have a good Curse rotation. It's not "for free", pets are a DoT that you have to activate every 6 seconds and which loses effectiveness dramatically if you recast it too early or too late.