Why can't we nerf Rush of Agony?

WaywardArgonian · February 24

MasterSpatula wrote: »

People asking questions like this perplex me. Like, the idea of someone outright refusing to have anything to do with a set specifically because they see it as overpowered is beyond some folks' comprehension. Regardless of how you feel about Rushing Agony, "overpoweredness" does not mean everyone is going to use the overpowered thing. I promise you, though it seems hard to see at times, there are lots of ethical people playing this game.

The fact remains that if RoA was as OP as is suggested, it would be used much more widely. Like when Tarnished Nightmare was first introduced and was objectively overperforming because it was bugged, you couldn't set 2 steps outside of a keep before you heard the proc of that set. RoA is a powerful set but it is limited to certain playstyles and builds. It's not absolutely everywhere like for example Dark Convergence was during its first 1-2 patches.

xylena_lazarow · February 24

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

The fact remains that if RoA was as OP as is suggested, it would be used much more widely.

I explained this phenomenon in post #11.

I'll go a step further now. It's something even worse than overpowered, called uncompetitive. That means it rewards "cheese" over skill. It automates the dominant meta strat, reduces the skill and awareness required to pilot it (but not the knowledge barrier to get in), then specifically punishes all of the normal skilled counterplay to crowd control or pulls.

Now answer this. You see any open world minmax comps NOT using RoA? Nope, it literally overpowers the entire damage meta for the game's strongest strat. Pure GvG comps can justify dropping RoA, but not open world comps.

WaywardArgonian · February 24

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

The fact remains that if RoA was as OP as is suggested, it would be used much more widely.

I explained this phenomenon in post #11.

I'll go a step further now. It's something even worse than overpowered, called uncompetitive. That means it rewards "cheese" over skill. It automates the dominant meta strat, reduces the skill and awareness required to pilot it (but not the knowledge barrier to get in), then specifically punishes all of the normal skilled counterplay to crowd control or pulls.

Now answer this. You see any open world minmax comps NOT using RoA? Nope, it literally overpowers the entire damage meta for the game's strongest strat. Pure GvG comps can justify dropping RoA, but not open world comps.

It is used towards a specific purpose because it is the best set at fulfilling that purpose. That doesn't make it OP, in the same way that Powerful Assault or Vicious Death aren't OP just because every open world comp worth their salt uses these sets.

Like Decimus said earlier, there are sets and abilities that purposefully break the rules of the game to prevent players from crutching on one specific form of counterplay. We already have abilities such as Streak and Javelin that go through block and prevent people from just permablocking; we have ultimates like Onslaught that ignore enemy resistances, and now we have a set that prevents groups from popping an immovability potion and blindly charging into another group. If you think about it this way, Snow Treaders is a much more OP item because it effectively removes one whole category of CC from the game. RoA is in fact one of the very few threats to you when you're wearing Snow Treaders and have an immovability pot active.

RoA can be annoying for the specific pull + Fear combo, and it can be doubly annoying in lag, but if more people learned how to have situational awareness and hold block when it matters, the set would already be much less of a problem. I rarely get pulled by this set and when I do I can usually identify my mistake that led to it.

xylena_lazarow · February 24

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

RoA can be annoying for the specific pull + Fear combo, and it can be doubly annoying in lag, but if more people learned how to have situational awareness and hold block when it matters, the set would already be much less of a problem. I rarely get pulled by this set and when I do I can usually identify my mistake that led to it.

When a combo strat like that overpowers the meta in other more serious competitive games like Magic, they tend to ban one of the halves of the combo, usually targeting the one that sees no play outside the combo, like the creature that would repeatedly steal an opponent's stuff, or the spell that could very randomly end the game on Turn 2.

Fear stuns are seriously not an issue on their own, they're healthy counterplay to a variety of annoyances. That leaves the other half of the combo, Rushing Agony, which sees no play outside this specific build and strat, yet dominates the open world meta when it appears, choking out any other offensive strat for optimized comp groups.

The barrier is system knowledge, logistics, and access to comp groups, not combat skill. There is an unusually high combat skill barrier to countering Rushing Agony. The combat skill barrier for piloting Rushing Agony is unusually lower than every other form of bombing, you enjoy a simple short rotation with automation replacing awareness and timing.

So if it makes piloting comp groups easier, and countering them harder, the battlefield is now artificially tilted in favor of comp group tryhards, who get to enjoy reduced combat skill demands and abuse of rule-breaking mechanics, while casuals have to work twice as hard in an already hard matchup, need to learn entirely new counterplay tactics beyond "just block bro" and leave the fight feeling like they got cheesed by rule-breaking mechanics, not outplayed.

You now have 12 guys gloating, and 60 guys considering quitting PvP. Look at this place outside Mayhem. Dead empty 20 hours a day. Where did all the zergs go? They quit because garbage like Rushing Agony makes large scale PvP unfun for the players who make large scale PvP happen in the first place. Who do the 12 farm now? Npcs and doors?

Thumbless_Bot · February 24

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

The fact remains that if RoA was as OP as is suggested, it would be used much more widely.

I explained this phenomenon in post #11.

I'll go a step further now. It's something even worse than overpowered, called uncompetitive. That means it rewards "cheese" over skill. It automates the dominant meta strat, reduces the skill and awareness required to pilot it (but not the knowledge barrier to get in), then specifically punishes all of the normal skilled counterplay to crowd control or pulls.

Now answer this. You see any open world minmax comps NOT using RoA? Nope, it literally overpowers the entire damage meta for the game's strongest strat. Pure GvG comps can justify dropping RoA, but not open world comps.

It is used towards a specific purpose because it is the best set at fulfilling that purpose. That doesn't make it OP, in the same way that Powerful Assault or Vicious Death aren't OP just because every open world comp worth their salt uses these sets.

Like Decimus said earlier, there are sets and abilities that purposefully break the rules of the game to prevent players from crutching on one specific form of counterplay. We already have abilities such as Streak and Javelin that go through block and prevent people from just permablocking; we have ultimates like Onslaught that ignore enemy resistances, and now we have a set that prevents groups from popping an immovability potion and blindly charging into another group. If you think about it this way, Snow Treaders is a much more OP item because it effectively removes one whole category of CC from the game. RoA is in fact one of the very few threats to you when you're wearing Snow Treaders and have an immovability pot active.

RoA can be annoying for the specific pull + Fear combo, and it can be doubly annoying in lag, but if more people learned how to have situational awareness and hold block when it matters, the set would already be much less of a problem. I rarely get pulled by this set and when I do I can usually identify my mistake that led to it.

I would shy away from bucketing everyone who doesn'tike this set into a l2p group.

Others have already explained the concerns with this set ad nauseam, whether or not you want to derail that with a semantics argument about the definition and classification of OP should not be anyone's concern.

It needs to be adjusted and zos agrees.

Soraka · February 24

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

RoA can be annoying for the specific pull + Fear combo, and it can be doubly annoying in lag, but if more people learned how to have situational awareness and hold block when it matters, the set would already be much less of a problem. I rarely get pulled by this set and when I do I can usually identify my mistake that led to it.

When a combo strat like that overpowers the meta in other more serious competitive games like Magic, they tend to ban one of the halves of the combo, usually targeting the one that sees no play outside the combo, like the creature that would repeatedly steal an opponent's stuff, or the spell that could very randomly end the game on Turn 2.

Fear stuns are seriously not an issue on their own, they're healthy counterplay to a variety of annoyances. That leaves the other half of the combo, Rushing Agony, which sees no play outside this specific build and strat, yet dominates the open world meta when it appears, choking out any other offensive strat for optimized comp groups.

The barrier is system knowledge, logistics, and access to comp groups, not combat skill. There is an unusually high combat skill barrier to countering Rushing Agony. The combat skill barrier for piloting Rushing Agony is unusually lower than every other form of bombing, you enjoy a simple short rotation with automation replacing awareness and timing.

So if it makes piloting comp groups easier, and countering them harder, the battlefield is now artificially tilted in favor of comp group tryhards, who get to enjoy reduced combat skill demands and abuse of rule-breaking mechanics, while casuals have to work twice as hard in an already hard matchup, need to learn entirely new counterplay tactics beyond "just block bro" and leave the fight feeling like they got cheesed by rule-breaking mechanics, not outplayed.

You now have 12 guys gloating, and 60 guys considering quitting PvP. Look at this place outside Mayhem. Dead empty 20 hours a day. Where did all the zergs go? They quit because garbage like Rushing Agony makes large scale PvP unfun for the players who make large scale PvP happen in the first place. Who do the 12 farm now? Npcs and doors?

100%
With a lot of the RoA farming, even if you live through a push there's not a lot to do after. I've been last man standing in a RoA push several times. We get everyone up and here they come and farm again until they're bored. It's becoming delete button spam. Delete this group of players, let them res, delete again. It highlights/compounds with other issues that are currently in pvp. Currently at least one group in pcna GH that no one wants to play/engage with. So now they appear at every fight to farm because most people are avoiding them. In fact, it really looks like the groups that do this on each faction don't even want to play with each other, because they all show up to farm whichever faction isn't currently using RoA spam groups and generally don't bother with each other. Keep attack tactics, or lack thereof, are starting to look weird because of it.

Decimus · February 24

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

RoA can be annoying for the specific pull + Fear combo, and it can be doubly annoying in lag, but if more people learned how to have situational awareness and hold block when it matters, the set would already be much less of a problem. I rarely get pulled by this set and when I do I can usually identify my mistake that led to it.

When a combo strat like that overpowers the meta in other more serious competitive games like Magic, they tend to ban one of the halves of the combo, usually targeting the one that sees no play outside the combo, like the creature that would repeatedly steal an opponent's stuff, or the spell that could very randomly end the game on Turn 2.

Fear stuns are seriously not an issue on their own, they're healthy counterplay to a variety of annoyances. That leaves the other half of the combo, Rushing Agony, which sees no play outside this specific build and strat, yet dominates the open world meta when it appears, choking out any other offensive strat for optimized comp groups.

The barrier is system knowledge, logistics, and access to comp groups, not combat skill. There is an unusually high combat skill barrier to countering Rushing Agony. The combat skill barrier for piloting Rushing Agony is unusually lower than every other form of bombing, you enjoy a simple short rotation with automation replacing awareness and timing.

So if it makes piloting comp groups easier, and countering them harder, the battlefield is now artificially tilted in favor of comp group tryhards, who get to enjoy reduced combat skill demands and abuse of rule-breaking mechanics, while casuals have to work twice as hard in an already hard matchup, need to learn entirely new counterplay tactics beyond "just block bro" and leave the fight feeling like they got cheesed by rule-breaking mechanics, not outplayed.

You now have 12 guys gloating, and 60 guys considering quitting PvP. Look at this place outside Mayhem. Dead empty 20 hours a day. Where did all the zergs go? They quit because garbage like Rushing Agony makes large scale PvP unfun for the players who make large scale PvP happen in the first place. Who do the 12 farm now? Npcs and doors?

The reason really isn't Rush of Agony though... Ball groups have been ruining PvP long before RoA even existed.

Again, I outlined on my first post what the actual issue is and why it can feel the set requires no skill to utilize etc (spoiler: nothing these people do requires skill at that point) - you're fighting people with literally twice the damage and tankiness that they should have.

The set can be used on a solo player as well, but the difference is that you've got to actually understand timings and what buttons to press.

It actually rewards good understanding of the game and mechanics when utilized to it's full effect - few people know for example that you can guaranteed land a bow proc since the pull is undodgeable (but if you bow proc too early it gets dodged while pull doesn't so timing matters), or that you can run it on back bar, weapon swap wait 100ms instead of spamming tether directly after swap & ulti stun people who get pulled rather than just whomever you gap closed.

Most solo players don't really get that out of the ordinary results with it... another reason I feel like pointing out that it is pretty much just a smoke screen for the underlying issues that have been making ball groups gradually more and more problematic, long before RoA was ever a thing even.

I also saw immovable pots brought up earlier in this thread as something RoA would counter - these actually prevent RoA pull as well, just as any other source of CC immunity... i.e. RoA itself doesn't proc CC immunity, but still respects it if someone has it.

xylena_lazarow · February 24

Desiato wrote: »

When it comes to ball groups, RoA is the least of my worries for sure.

Decimus wrote: »

Ball groups have been ruining PvP long before RoA even existed.

RoA is literally my only worry. Before RoA, I spent a decade running around and through ball groups, knowing I'd easily be able to get out of the way as soon as I see them about to attack.

This is now suicidal. I need to stay beyond the 22m gap closer range plus the 12m RoA range, and then a little further to account for lag. So basically right at my 41m max attack range, where there's little I can do but left click a siege, maybe drop a Meteor, or a Negate if I'm on StamSorc... and pray for a lucky bomb.

If my positioning isn't absolutely perfect all the time, I die on the spot. Stay 100% sweaty focused the entire time just so you can do... that? Who the hell wants to play like that? Not me, looking around Cyro outside Mayhem, nobody.

Decimus · February 24

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

When it comes to ball groups, RoA is the least of my worries for sure.

Decimus wrote: »

Ball groups have been ruining PvP long before RoA even existed.

RoA is literally my only worry. Before RoA, I spent a decade running around and through ball groups, knowing I'd easily be able to get out of the way as soon as I see them about to attack.

This is now suicidal. I need to stay beyond the 22m gap closer range plus the 12m RoA range, and then a little further to account for lag. So basically right at my 41m max attack range, where there's little I can do but left click a siege, maybe drop a Meteor, or a Negate if I'm on StamSorc... and pray for a lucky bomb.

If my positioning isn't absolutely perfect all the time, I die on the spot. Stay 100% sweaty focused the entire time just so you can do... that? Who the hell wants to play like that? Not me, looking around Cyro outside Mayhem, nobody.

Have you stopped to consider the possibility that the reason you die in those situations is because every player in that ball group deals twice the damage (including with the RoA) they should? They also sit at armor cap and are crit immune, so good luck trying to counter the burst. You still can, sometimes... ball groups players aren't exactly known for being particularly good at the game after all - but it's still a very uphill battle against the buff sets.

If these groups were to lose their AoE pull they'd just run a DK with undodgeable spammable chain pull and Farstrider - anyone getting yoinked just gets nuked instantly.

Juomuuri · February 24

This set is super annoying in BGs, I don't like getting pulled through walls, and I don't like being pulled from WAY across the map! This set should be hard coded to only pull at the range all other pull sets pull. And add an indicator for the pull too so we can block it. Thanks.

xylena_lazarow · February 24

Decimus wrote: »

Have you stopped to consider the possibility that the reason you die in those situations is because every player in that ball group deals twice the damage (including with the RoA) they should?

Yeah and I can still run through them when they're not bombing, and still survive being chunked by their AoE if I'm not being pulled into a stun. If Rushing Agony is up, I need to be 41m away immediately, or I'm dead.

Decimus · February 24

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Have you stopped to consider the possibility that the reason you die in those situations is because every player in that ball group deals twice the damage (including with the RoA) they should?

Yeah and I can still run through them when they're not bombing, and still survive being chunked by their AoE if I'm not being pulled into a stun. If Rushing Agony is up, I need to be 41m away immediately, or I'm dead.

Blocking also works, especially as a stam sorc where it doesn't even have to slow you down.

The reason you have to keep distance and avoid fighting these players in the first place is the buff sets though - my bet is that without the buff sets one could even tank a whole group with some LOS & you'd pretty much never have to worry about dying to a pull if you're not low health already and CC'able.

xylena_lazarow · February 24

Decimus wrote: »

Blocking also works, especially as a stam sorc

And if you aren't on the class that can Block-Streak across the map? You block, now you've slowed down too much and you die because you're out of position. You don't block, you get pulled and die on the spot. So the only sure way to deal with RoA balls is to stay 41m away at all times, or don't bother fighting at all. That 2nd option keeps getting more popular. And don't forget that comps aren't just running one single RoA pull, they're doing multiples in succession.

Decimus · February 24

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Blocking also works, especially as a stam sorc

And if you aren't on the class that can Block-Streak across the map? You block, now you've slowed down too much and you die because you're out of position. You don't block, you get pulled and die on the spot. So the only sure way to deal with RoA balls is to stay 41m away at all times, or don't bother fighting at all. That 2nd option keeps getting more popular. And don't forget that comps aren't just running one single RoA pull, they're doing multiples in succession.

You either time a block tap after the gap closer and hope it isn't lagging if you want to min-max it or you block while jumping to maintain momentum.

Again, none of this would be an issue without the buff sets making it impossible to just tank whatever is coming by holding block with ice staff/SnB & healing/cleansing until the ultimates are over.

Groups can run multiple Rush of Agonies, but assuming the group has a CC of some kind those are kind of useless since CC immune people won't be pulled... And until you have 10+ people you'll still have various different buff sets to slot, which are always BiS when you're buffing the entire group.

YandereGirlfriend · February 24

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

The fact remains that if RoA was as OP as is suggested, it would be used much more widely.

I explained this phenomenon in post #11.

I'll go a step further now. It's something even worse than overpowered, called uncompetitive. That means it rewards "cheese" over skill. It automates the dominant meta strat, reduces the skill and awareness required to pilot it (but not the knowledge barrier to get in), then specifically punishes all of the normal skilled counterplay to crowd control or pulls.

Now answer this. You see any open world minmax comps NOT using RoA? Nope, it literally overpowers the entire damage meta for the game's strongest strat. Pure GvG comps can justify dropping RoA, but not open world comps.

GvG comps drop Rush because players in top-tier groups don't get pulled by the set very often, making it a waste of a set slot at best and at worst a distraction from the actual moment of greatest leverage, which is always the Fear.

Such players have been exposed to Rush WAY more than the average Cyrodiil zone player has and so they automatically do things like recognize an incoming damage push, split up, and block.

Simply watching a high-level GvG would be excellent learning material for loads of players currently struggling with the set. And also a clear reminder that, yes, it is possible to basically trivialize the set if you know what you are doing and know what to look for.

xylena_lazarow · February 24

Decimus wrote: »

You either time a block tap after the gap closer and hope it isn't lagging if you want to min-max it or you block while jumping to maintain momentum.

Yeah so you and I can do that, but all the hundreds of casual zergers that quit? And even then, like I said you're out of position, you're way too close to a bombing ball group, making it way too easy for them to just run you over.

xylena_lazarow · February 24

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Simply watching a high-level GvG would be excellent learning material for loads of players currently struggling with the set. And also a clear reminder that, yes, it is possible to basically trivialize the set if you know what you are doing and know what to look for.

In a 3v3 or whatever? Sure, my non-comp x'er groups have beaten plenty of small ball RoA comp groups on the flags, even slightly outnumbered. But the set isn't broken in this environment, it's broken in large scale, where its appearance dominates the large chaotic battlefield above any other single set mechanic or class skill.

As a solo or smallscaler, you aren't trivializing RoA when it's being wielded by larger groups on the larger battlefield. If you aren't preparing for RoA in large scale, you're dying to it. If it's a hardcore 12 wielding RoA, you stay 41m away or you risk dying instantly. Even 6-8 wielding RoA can be a severe threat that needs to be zerged down asap.

Decimus · February 24

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

You either time a block tap after the gap closer and hope it isn't lagging if you want to min-max it or you block while jumping to maintain momentum.

Yeah so you and I can do that, but all the hundreds of casual zergers that quit? And even then, like I said you're out of position, you're way too close to a bombing ball group, making it way too easy for them to just run you over.

Yeah I know what you're saying, but this is exactly why I'd rather see more counters to stacking buff sets than nerfs to something that can currently be countered. If the casual zergers could just hold block (very easy to do) and survive on crossheals because the ball group doesn't have 41% extra crit damage & 1k more weapon/spell damage than they should... there'd be no problem.

Realistically they won't be making all these buff sets PvE only or removing them, so best thing we can hope for is some Rock/Paper/Scissors approach... and there's many ways that can be done - for example they could add a set that deals ramping oblivion damage based on how many positive effects someone has (buffs, heal over times, anything).

Similarly, I think they could consider adding more 5p sets or a mythic that counters pull mechanics if people want to build around their personal pain points in PvP - Nibenay is a good monster set to slot atm (15k shield when you get pulled).

xylena_lazarow · February 24

Decimus wrote: »

Yeah I know what you're saying, but this is exactly why I'd rather see more counters to stacking buff sets than nerfs to something that can currently be countered.

Everything can be countered somehow, doesn't make it balanced. If the counterplay is too niche that it warps builds, like demanding one single specific 2pc monster set, then it's not balanced. If the counterplay has a disproportionately higher skill barrier compared to piloting a.. uh... off-gcd single-bar gear proc? Not even a skill? That can't be right.

Their solution to the ball meta is Vengeance, whether we like that or not. Outside that environment, RoA is still affecting solo Battlegrounds in a similarly negative manner. If build PvP is going to survive, we need to get rid of crap like RoA.

Decimus · February 24

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Yeah I know what you're saying, but this is exactly why I'd rather see more counters to stacking buff sets than nerfs to something that can currently be countered.

Everything can be countered somehow, doesn't make it balanced. If the counterplay is too niche that it warps builds, like demanding one single specific 2pc monster set, then it's not balanced. If the counterplay has a disproportionately higher skill barrier compared to piloting a.. uh... off-gcd single-bar gear proc? Not even a skill? That can't be right.

Their solution to the ball meta is Vengeance, whether we like that or not. Outside that environment, RoA is still affecting solo Battlegrounds in a similarly negative manner. If build PvP is going to survive, we need to get rid of crap like RoA.

Ehm, so how is one supposed to "counter" buff sets at the moment? We're talking about free 1k weapon/spell dmg, free 41% crit dmg, free 40% crit dmg resistance, free major heroism, free 7,8k+ armor etc

This is not something you simply "counter" - there is no counter set, no block/dodge roll/whatever reaction... you either play in a ball group yourself, or you play at a severe disadvantage beyond being outnumbered & not being in voice comms with people.

And how exactly is RoA affecting solo BGs? I've not died once to this set so far in BGs since it's even easier to deal with there and most people don't even know how to utilize it properly and wind up going giga negative.

xylena_lazarow · February 24

Decimus wrote: »

Ehm, so how is one supposed to "counter" buff sets at the moment? And how exactly is RoA affecting solo BGs?

A better ball group. Yes, this means the strat is broken, but I think we agree on that.

It's not mutually exclusive with RoA being broken. In BGs, again you and I can counter it, but the noob in 8v8 that I'm trying to carry just exploded on me. I'm now annoyed and artificially set on the run, while the noob that got pulled, stunned, and exploded just rage quit the BG. The match ends, the RoA guy doesn't even have that good a KDA, his team lost, and that poor noob is never setting foot in PvP again. RoA brings absolutely nothing positive to the game.

Decimus · February 24

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Ehm, so how is one supposed to "counter" buff sets at the moment? And how exactly is RoA affecting solo BGs?

A better ball group. Yes, this means the strat is broken, but I think we agree on that.

It's not mutually exclusive with RoA being broken. In BGs, again you and I can counter it, but the noob in 8v8 that I'm trying to carry just exploded on me. I'm now annoyed and artificially set on the run, while the noob that got pulled, stunned, and exploded just rage quit the BG. The match ends, the RoA guy doesn't even have that good a KDA, his team lost, and that poor noob is never setting foot in PvP again. RoA brings absolutely nothing positive to the game.

Oh trust me, there's a lot worse things you can do to people in BGs than RoA pull them... It's nice on some builds but that's about it - for overall most broken thing atm I'd probably say acuity null arca DK right now since it has very little counter outside of building 40k+ health & holding block, but it doesn't really matter too much in the end what you run; plenty of broken builds out there using various different sets.

As for ball groups, that is exactly the problem... when it's not Rock Paper Scissors but just "play Rock to counter Rock", the game is broken and the sets you "should run" are dictated to you... and more than that: how you play is dictated to you and whom you should play with because buff sets require an entire organized group with other buff sets.

There needs to be counters to things, just like there are to other builds out there.

katanagirl1 · February 25

Soraka wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

RoA can be annoying for the specific pull + Fear combo, and it can be doubly annoying in lag, but if more people learned how to have situational awareness and hold block when it matters, the set would already be much less of a problem. I rarely get pulled by this set and when I do I can usually identify my mistake that led to it.

When a combo strat like that overpowers the meta in other more serious competitive games like Magic, they tend to ban one of the halves of the combo, usually targeting the one that sees no play outside the combo, like the creature that would repeatedly steal an opponent's stuff, or the spell that could very randomly end the game on Turn 2.

Fear stuns are seriously not an issue on their own, they're healthy counterplay to a variety of annoyances. That leaves the other half of the combo, Rushing Agony, which sees no play outside this specific build and strat, yet dominates the open world meta when it appears, choking out any other offensive strat for optimized comp groups.

The barrier is system knowledge, logistics, and access to comp groups, not combat skill. There is an unusually high combat skill barrier to countering Rushing Agony. The combat skill barrier for piloting Rushing Agony is unusually lower than every other form of bombing, you enjoy a simple short rotation with automation replacing awareness and timing.

So if it makes piloting comp groups easier, and countering them harder, the battlefield is now artificially tilted in favor of comp group tryhards, who get to enjoy reduced combat skill demands and abuse of rule-breaking mechanics, while casuals have to work twice as hard in an already hard matchup, need to learn entirely new counterplay tactics beyond "just block bro" and leave the fight feeling like they got cheesed by rule-breaking mechanics, not outplayed.

You now have 12 guys gloating, and 60 guys considering quitting PvP. Look at this place outside Mayhem. Dead empty 20 hours a day. Where did all the zergs go? They quit because garbage like Rushing Agony makes large scale PvP unfun for the players who make large scale PvP happen in the first place. Who do the 12 farm now? Npcs and doors?

100%
With a lot of the RoA farming, even if you live through a push there's not a lot to do after. I've been last man standing in a RoA push several times. We get everyone up and here they come and farm again until they're bored. It's becoming delete button spam. Delete this group of players, let them res, delete again. It highlights/compounds with other issues that are currently in pvp. Currently at least one group in pcna GH that no one wants to play/engage with. So now they appear at every fight to farm because most people are avoiding them. In fact, it really looks like the groups that do this on each faction don't even want to play with each other, because they all show up to farm whichever faction isn't currently using RoA spam groups and generally don't bother with each other. Keep attack tactics, or lack thereof, are starting to look weird because of it.

This is what it is like on PS NA Gray Host with the emp group right now. They show up every time we try to take back one of our keeps and since they have half our numbers they just wipe the floor with us. I went to Ash four or five times and it always ended the same.

Turtle_Bot · February 25

Decimus wrote: »

Similarly, I think they could consider adding more 5p sets or a mythic that counters pull mechanics if people want to build around their personal pain points in PvP - Nibenay is a good monster set to slot atm (15k shield when you get pulled).

I've ran nibenay, it's mid at best (thanks again to all the stat buffs that ball groups inherently have access to that regular players cannot) since their damage just instantly melts the 15k shield that set gives (oh no, now it's the third squishy that gets pulled and instantly dies and procs VD next to me that kills me, not the second one...) and the 5% mitigation it gives when the shield is not active is essentially nothing (it's actually only 2.5% mitigation at best and that is with only armor cap and no other percent mitigation bonuses, most of the time it's ~1-1.5% mitigation when the shield is not active due to how stacking mitigation works in ESO, which is pathetic stats, even for only 2 pieces).

For nibenay to work, it would have to scale it's shield up massively to match something like lefthander aegis mythic damage shield (something like 25k), or the shield it has takes significantly reduced damage from AoE's while active (essentially nullifying ball group bomb strats and procs sets like VD entirely). But that would not be balanced and only introduces countless more issues into the game when simply adjusting ball group stat stacking (and heal/shield stacking) and Rush would do far more to address balance issues with ball groups and the issues with rush at the same time.

JobooAGS · February 25

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Ehm, so how is one supposed to "counter" buff sets at the moment? And how exactly is RoA affecting solo BGs?

A better ball group. Yes, this means the strat is broken, but I think we agree on that.

It's not mutually exclusive with RoA being broken. In BGs, again you and I can counter it, but the noob in 8v8 that I'm trying to carry just exploded on me. I'm now annoyed and artificially set on the run, while the noob that got pulled, stunned, and exploded just rage quit the BG. The match ends, the RoA guy doesn't even have that good a KDA, his team lost, and that poor noob is never setting foot in PvP again. RoA brings absolutely nothing positive to the game.

This. My friend group won’t set foot in (group) bgs and can barely set foot in cyrodiil because of RoA. They only begrudgingly went into cyrodiil to try to emp a guildie.

dark_hunterxmg · February 25

Decimus wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I quite like this.

Knock-up abilities are also THE most likely abilities in the game to cause de-sync and they glitch you into things like ceilings (which players 100% do intentionally).

Yep. Knock up/back, slow pulls, etc. Almost always cause desync. DK essentially gets 3x CC abilities. Now fight a bunch of them and you'll never move again. Break free is bugged still and it always favors the cc animation completing before the player gets free.

DK pull actually has a hard coded 99% snare on the target - it doesn't prevent you from blocking or using abilities, but can feel like you got CC'd.

Ironically this was put in place to actually make it land since it's an AoE around the target's location when you cast it - without this it'd be very prone to just missing and dealing zero damage as players would've moved out of the radius of the AoE before it lands and due to the very same positional desyncs that affect Rush of Agony as well the game cannot update a target's location fast enough.

With good timing, you can still Mist Form/Arcanist Portal/Streak to avoid Leap entirely, since those abilities aren't affected by the 99% snare.

99% snare might as well be immobilize. It's enough of an immobilization that it will stop a roll dodge and allow another player(who you were trying to dodge) to hit you. I see nothing wrong with this skill having the ability to miss either, since many other ultimates and gap closers requiring a target will also miss.
I maintain my position that this skill breaks the rules and so does rush of agony. If we change one, we should change the other for the same reason.

xylena_lazarow · February 25

Decimus wrote: »

Oh trust me, there's a lot worse things you can do to people in BGs than RoA pull them... It's nice on some builds but that's about it - for overall most broken thing atm I'd probably say acuity null arca DK right now since it has very little counter outside of building 40k+ health & holding block

Never seen that on NA server. Maybe one guy on Acuity DK. Isn't Null Arca getting nerfed anyway? It's Acuity Wardens here that get some complaints, but nothing compared to the rage over Rushing Agony, even though a pretty big chunk of the NA server is in fact building 40k+ hp and holding block, only to be blown up anyway thanks to the fear stun.

RealLoveBVB · February 26

JobooAGS wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Ehm, so how is one supposed to "counter" buff sets at the moment? And how exactly is RoA affecting solo BGs?

A better ball group. Yes, this means the strat is broken, but I think we agree on that.

It's not mutually exclusive with RoA being broken. In BGs, again you and I can counter it, but the noob in 8v8 that I'm trying to carry just exploded on me. I'm now annoyed and artificially set on the run, while the noob that got pulled, stunned, and exploded just rage quit the BG. The match ends, the RoA guy doesn't even have that good a KDA, his team lost, and that poor noob is never setting foot in PvP again. RoA brings absolutely nothing positive to the game.

This. My friend group won’t set foot in (group) bgs and can barely set foot in cyrodiil because of RoA. They only begrudgingly went into cyrodiil to try to emp a guildie.

If he is a noob, then it doesn't really matter what killed him, hu? He would have died to everything and rage quit too.
Blaming everything on RoA is actually a boring story already.

i11ionward · February 26

I believe that RoA should receive some changes, such as:

Fixing the desynchronization and positioning bug
Increasing the cooldown duration (in my opinion, 12-15 seconds would be sufficient)
A clear and obvious telegraph (similar to Dark Convergence)

Other than that, I agree with @Decimus that nerfing RoA will have little impact on ball groups. If a ball group is currently 100% annoying, then with the RoA nerf, it will still be around 95%. Buff stacking, shield stacking, heal stacking, and Snow Treaders won't go anywhere with the RoA nerf, and these issues are far more significant than RoA. The only difference is that RoA is just the most visible problem—it's essentially a smoke screen.

JakelDK · February 26

Please dont nerf ROA