I'm just curious about all the complaints about PvP and I agree to some extent, but.

Gulnagel · February 20

Hi, I'm a veteran ESO player, my main endgame for years has been PvP.

When I started PvP I had no guild, all pve gear and it was insta death all the time.
I guess here is were most people and new players quit.

The learning curve for PvP is insane, always has been and with the power creep that is CP and the economy veteran players have in terms of gold and materials to fix gear, try builds has made the gap between new PvP players and veteran players even greater and it was bad from the start.

How can people expect new players in PvP when there is this insane learning curve, people yelling at new players for not bringing siege, repairkits and all that.

PvP in ESO is now ball groups and zergs, more so than ever. And you know the players in the other factions, you know that if you fight it will just be a drawn out 10 minute battle untill it gets stale and you call it a draw. That's why you see so many of us just standing beside players from other factions, fighting is sometimes futile, you know it will be drawn out, they now it will be drawn out so you do [snip] all instead.

But new players melt like butter and then quit.

The issue as I see it is PvP is unfair and it makes it unfun for majority of players and veterans - just zerg eachother or don't bother.

Take myself for example I've been gaming all my life, comfortable with a controller, mainly focused on FPS games and do well in them, I average an above 3.0 kd in BfV and that is without using vehicles just soldier vs soldier.

The reason I'm saying this is because sometimes a lvl 2 in battlefield kills me, they have a fair chance from the start, they don't need to research, research, spend thousands of gold, grind for days just to start learning and have a fair chance in multiplayer.

But in ESO new players stand no chance, especially with PvE setups, and say what you want we all know that the midyear mayhem used to be a wolf in the hen house with the influx of new players, fun for veterans to slice and dice, horrible for new players to PvP; they will never return.

In battlefield it's more about the knowledge of the map, your aim and recoil control, that is what gets you the upper hand if all would play with the same gear and weapons.

In eso it is so, so, so gear dependent, and the learning curve is insane, I've never played a game with this much imbalance between players(if we are not counting pay to win games).

I love PvP in ESO, but I'm also an competitive player, been all my life, majority of players are not, that's why the PvP community stays small and will stay small if nothing happens.

Takes ages to unlock skill lines and gear just to be able to make a dent in PvP. I would for example never bother with battlefield if I had to play the single player campaign for 50 hours just to unlock multiplayer with good gear and weapons.

I would never join match in battlefield if I had a pea shooter and die in one shot and the other players have real weapons and are immortal.

But that's ESO PvP, for new players they hardly make a dent at someone but die before they blink.
I don't find it funny killing them either because I know the frustration they feel, seen 10 beginners chasing 1 vet player and he turns around an swat them like flies.

Drastic changes is needed because I want to see PvP thrive and evolve. And many of you want that also, no?

[edited for profanity bypass]

majorlginfidel · February 20

I do not disagree with you. I'm sure as a beginner, getting swatted instantly is not the experience they are looking for. That being said, I have also played ESO since launch and the first 2 years I avoided the PVP experience. Once I got brave enough to step in, I got torn apart, over and over and over. I dusted it off, looked at where I was struggling and adapted. I learned to win 1v1's. Then I took bigger bites and "learned" to fight multiple players at once. I only played PVE content to farm gear I needed for my PVP toons. I learned how to position myself. The idea of catering to new players that are inexperienced seems to be nonsense to me. Learning the game and how to "pvp" made it way more rewarding. I understand your argument, but if one wants to "get gud" then they need to "get gud". Get out there and learn where to make the changes. Just my opinion, not looking to argue. Im just a trashcan ganker. lol

AvalonRanger · February 20

Gulnagel wrote: »

Hi, I'm a veteran ESO player, my main endgame for years has been PvP.

When I started PvP I had no guild, all pve gear and it was insta death all the time.
I guess here is were most people and new players quit.

The learning curve for PvP is insane, always has been and with the power creep that is CP and the economy veteran players have in terms of gold and materials to fix gear, try builds has made the gap between new PvP players and veteran players even greater and it was bad from the start.

How can people expect new players in PvP when there is this insane learning curve, people yelling at new players for not bringing siege, repairkits and all that.

PvP in ESO is now ball groups and zergs, more so than ever. And you know the players in the other factions, you know that if you fight it will just be a drawn out 10 minute battle untill it gets stale and you call it a draw. That's why you see so many of us just standing beside players from other factions, fighting is sometimes futile, you know it will be drawn out, they now it will be drawn out so you do [snip] all instead.

But new players melt like butter and then quit.

The issue as I see it is PvP is unfair and it makes it unfun for majority of players and veterans - just zerg eachother or don't bother.

Take myself for example I've been gaming all my life, comfortable with a controller, mainly focused on FPS games and do well in them, I average an above 3.0 kd in BfV and that is without using vehicles just soldier vs soldier.

The reason I'm saying this is because sometimes a lvl 2 in battlefield kills me, they have a fair chance from the start, they don't need to research, research, spend thousands of gold, grind for days just to start learning and have a fair chance in multiplayer.

But in ESO new players stand no chance, especially with PvE setups, and say what you want we all know that the midyear mayhem used to be a wolf in the hen house with the influx of new players, fun for veterans to slice and dice, horrible for new players to PvP; they will never return.

In battlefield it's more about the knowledge of the map, your aim and recoil control, that is what gets you the upper hand if all would play with the same gear and weapons.

In eso it is so, so, so gear dependent, and the learning curve is insane, I've never played a game with this much imbalance between players(if we are not counting pay to win games).

I love PvP in ESO, but I'm also an competitive player, been all my life, majority of players are not, that's why the PvP community stays small and will stay small if nothing happens.

Takes ages to unlock skill lines and gear just to be able to make a dent in PvP. I would for example never bother with battlefield if I had to play the single player campaign for 50 hours just to unlock multiplayer with good gear and weapons.

I would never join match in battlefield if I had a pea shooter and die in one shot and the other players have real weapons and are immortal.

But that's ESO PvP, for new players they hardly make a dent at someone but die before they blink.
I don't find it funny killing them either because I know the frustration they feel, seen 10 beginners chasing 1 vet player and he turns around an swat them like flies.

Drastic changes is needed because I want to see PvP thrive and evolve. And many of you want that also, no?

But new players melt like butter and then quit.

I think most of major PVP title game fan will reject ESO PVP.
Even ESO PVP is not PVP game at all. Because the "meta" rule them all.

It's just some kind of bully against newbies.

Devs really should check the contemporary high quality AAA PVP game like the "Battle Field".
Today is the 2025, not 2014. But ESO PVP still stay in 2014.

[edited to remove quote]

majorlginfidel · February 20

Who is bullying newbies?
Its honestly a "L2P" issue. Everyone has access to sets that are good enough to fight in PvP. Experience is needed, expecting one to just jump in and know it all/have all the gear needed is not the answer. Learning how is the answer.

Sarannah · February 20

As a PvE player I feel ZOS should have players choose a full pre-build PvP loadout for the class they are playing when we zone into a PvP zone, or allow us to use our own build. Maybe have atleast 5 different streamers add their PvP loadout for each class(doesn't have to be the same streamers for all classes, maybe add credit in the build name: Example "Sarannah's Single Bar Hiding Nightblade build"). This way players can pick 1 loadout from atleast 5 different loadouts, or keep their own build.

Maybe to make it take some effort, have us unlock the required PvE gear first, to unlock certain PvP loadouts. Could even go further and have players gain experience with each build, leveling each loadout from level 1 to 10 like skilllines to unlock a different color for dye'ing from each loadout. This to make sure players will gain player-skill/player-experience with the different loadouts they like, and to give incentives to try the other loadouts.

For example when we zone into a PvP zone(Cyrodiil, Imperial City, BattleGrounds), we get a screen with 6 different tilesets, each representing a different loadout for that class:
Tile 1: Sarannah's Single Bar Hiding Nightblade build
Tile 2: Sarannah's Flying Blade Dual wield Nightblade build
Tile 3: Sarannah's Two-handed Punch Nightblade build
Tile 4: Sarannah's Agile Stamina Nightblade build
Tile 5: Sarannah's Spellborn's Fire Staff Nightblade build
Tile 6: Keep current build

This idea has multiple good parts to it:
1: More players may PvP as they are no longer massively underpowered and dying over and over.
2: More players may try PvP to try different loadouts.
3: More players may want to PvP on different classes.
4: Streamers may be more inclined to add their loadouts to ESO, both for credit and for name recognition in the game itself. (and more inclined to update their builds)
5: PvE players may try PvP loadouts simply to see what is possible with their class.

Not lowering the ceiling, not raising the floor, not changing anything about PvP itself, and noone negatively impacted with this idea. Just a thought!

PS: ZOS could expand the number of loadouts as they see fit, or with how many different builds are submitted by streamers and maybe even regular players at some point.

moo_2021 · February 20

Do you think casual PVPers should be able to enjoy vet dungeons without any preparation?

majorlginfidel · February 20

Giving a new player a starting point with a pre-defined pvp loadout would probably lure new players that are on the fence about PvP to jump in and give it a try. Experience is still going to reign supreme. There are still going to a lot of deaths in the early stages. There is still that learning curve to get around. PVP in a MMO isn't even comparable to a FPS. There is so much more to it. Alot of it is knowing when and where to engage or disengage. Whatever will keep PVP alive is what we need at this point. At the end of the day, if a new player is struggling, dust off and keep going. Giving up on it isn't going to make anyone better.

Sarannah · February 20

moo_2021 wrote: »

Do you think casual PVPers should be able to enjoy vet dungeons without any preparation?

There is a difference. Many players are already playing veteran dungeons, while PvP is starved from players and has terrible player retention. To get more players to PvP and for the PvP content to grow, there needs to be more of a playerbase in that content first. Gatekeeping ESO PvP for only the elite will only hurt it in the longrun. In practically all other PvP games(MMO), you can dive right in and have fair fights.

Just because our grandparents had to walk with a heavy backpack uphill and barefooted in the snow to school, doesn't mean we all should be forced to do so either. Same can be said for PvP.

Keep in mind, skilled PvPers will always be the better ones in a one-on-one. So for skilled PvPers this shouldn't matter, it is only those who want to kill others over and over who will care. But that playstyle isn't PvPing in my opinion, that is bullying, as some have already stated.

valenwood_vegan · February 20

moo_2021 wrote: »

Do you think casual PVPers should be able to enjoy vet dungeons without any preparation?

But that's the thing right? You don't jump right into a vet dungeon without any preparation. There's overland, delves, public dungeons, normal dungeons, DLC dungeons, normal trials, vet dungeons, vet DLC dungeons, vet trials. There's a progression. I think the issue people are trying to get it (that I happen to agree with) is that pvp *is* like kinda like jumping right into high end pve content without the progression. It turns a lot of people off. One can tell them they need to L2P and get good, but imo the skill gap is huge, the learning curve is huge, and the population that wants to bang their heads against the wall like that is fairly low. So either pvp will remain niche, or they've gotta do something to kinda onboard more casual players so they can get to where they enjoy it.

moo_2021 · February 20

A pre-defined loadout won't make any difference unless it's one of max resist builds. The only way casuals can feel better is to have a lot of casuals like before.

majorlginfidel · February 20

Gank them all

VoxAdActa · February 20

In Cyrodiil, you're either an unkillable face-melter who can win a 6v1 while being focus-fired by multiple siege engines, or you're a target.

To become the face-melter, you have to start out doing a lengthy grind in PvE for the specific sets and skills that actually do something. Crafted gear is a non-starter. Overland gear is a non-starter. Most dungeon and trial gear won't be sufficient, either. It's gotta be specific gear, which non-PvPers probably don't have handy, because it's not especially useful in PvE.

If you don't do that step, you won't live long enough to learn anything about how to PvP. There's nothing to learn from dying 7 seconds after you meet the enemy, other than "I suck and this is stupid." You also start learning how to have a thick skin here, because the toxicity from both your allies and your enemies is frequently off the charts compared to the laughably tepid toxicity of PvE.

Once you have a workable gear setup, now the actual work begins: learning to PvP. Now you can start the months-long process of figuring out how to not panic when you get into combat, who to attack, when to attack, how to actually kill someone, and how to escape alive. This can only be done by walking face-first in the failure over and over and over again.

It takes so much more dedication to get into PvP than it does for all but the endest of end-game PvE content. And there are a lot more ways to learn PvE content than "die until something clicks, if that ever happens at all."

Can you imagine if PvE was like this? The first time you ever set foot into a dungeon, you die within seconds, and get teabagged and pushuped and have the quest givers yell at you for sucking (Eboric's Projection: "You tried to come in here with only 25k health? What the bleep is wrong with you? Bleeping loser!")?

And then you're told you can only touch the dungeon after grinding 50 hours for the right equipment, and then you can start to learn basic mechanics like when to block and how to do a rotation?

Even putting aside the community's rampant toxicity, the grinding and learning curves alone keep a whole lot of people out of PvP. Unless PvP is something you just love or you have some burning motivation that forces you to endure it (like I have for alliance rank dye colors), you're going to pop in during an event, get shot in the face and laughed at a few times, then bounce back to PvE saying "never again."

merevie · February 20

Would you invite a PvP player on a vet trial team with their pvp gear and strategies?

People are not entitled to be able to do any content without learning it.

Lags · February 21

Gulnagel wrote: »

Hi, I'm a veteran ESO player, my main endgame for years has been PvP.

When I started PvP I had no guild, all pve gear and it was insta death all the time.
I guess here is were most people and new players quit.

The learning curve for PvP is insane, always has been and with the power creep that is CP and the economy veteran players have in terms of gold and materials to fix gear, try builds has made the gap between new PvP players and veteran players even greater and it was bad from the start.

How can people expect new players in PvP when there is this insane learning curve, people yelling at new players for not bringing siege, repairkits and all that.

PvP in ESO is now ball groups and zergs, more so than ever. And you know the players in the other factions, you know that if you fight it will just be a drawn out 10 minute battle untill it gets stale and you call it a draw. That's why you see so many of us just standing beside players from other factions, fighting is sometimes futile, you know it will be drawn out, they now it will be drawn out so you do [snip] all instead.

But new players melt like butter and then quit.

The issue as I see it is PvP is unfair and it makes it unfun for majority of players and veterans - just zerg eachother or don't bother.

Take myself for example I've been gaming all my life, comfortable with a controller, mainly focused on FPS games and do well in them, I average an above 3.0 kd in BfV and that is without using vehicles just soldier vs soldier.

The reason I'm saying this is because sometimes a lvl 2 in battlefield kills me, they have a fair chance from the start, they don't need to research, research, spend thousands of gold, grind for days just to start learning and have a fair chance in multiplayer.

But in ESO new players stand no chance, especially with PvE setups, and say what you want we all know that the midyear mayhem used to be a wolf in the hen house with the influx of new players, fun for veterans to slice and dice, horrible for new players to PvP; they will never return.

In battlefield it's more about the knowledge of the map, your aim and recoil control, that is what gets you the upper hand if all would play with the same gear and weapons.

In eso it is so, so, so gear dependent, and the learning curve is insane, I've never played a game with this much imbalance between players(if we are not counting pay to win games).

I love PvP in ESO, but I'm also an competitive player, been all my life, majority of players are not, that's why the PvP community stays small and will stay small if nothing happens.

Takes ages to unlock skill lines and gear just to be able to make a dent in PvP. I would for example never bother with battlefield if I had to play the single player campaign for 50 hours just to unlock multiplayer with good gear and weapons.

I would never join match in battlefield if I had a pea shooter and die in one shot and the other players have real weapons and are immortal.

But that's ESO PvP, for new players they hardly make a dent at someone but die before they blink.
I don't find it funny killing them either because I know the frustration they feel, seen 10 beginners chasing 1 vet player and he turns around an swat them like flies.

Drastic changes is needed because I want to see PvP thrive and evolve. And many of you want that also, no?

I dont think so. Whether its 2016 when i learned i wanted to mainly pvp in eso, and be good at it, or today, it just comes down having the want to improve and learn. And unfortunately a lot of people dont have that these days. A lot of people just want to make excuses or call cheats. And there isnt many players left that stand out and inspire others to want be as good as they are. Some, but not many.

But imo its always been the same. You either want to improve and do better or you dont. Im actually not sure how you would come to this conclusion when you said yourself you have been pvping for years and when you started out you got rolled. Do you think its any different for me? Or any other competent pvper? You either want it or you dont. For some people it takes longer than others. If you really want to improve, not die fast, take on larger groups, or play solo, and you're willing to learn and improve, then it will happen faster. Even if you just hop on a couple hours a night to brainlessly zerg, you will still improve over time. Of course some people just hop on and die and quit, but thats the nature of any pvp game.

Tbh i dont completely disagree with you. I just think more bad combat changes from zos, or blanket nerfs, (and it sounds like thats what you are insinuating when you say drastic change) will only do more harm. And it has already done A LOT of harm. I think the best thing newer players ever had was the under lv 50 camp. Sure some vet players would run around on low lv characters to kill people but you had a lot of new players learning from some longer term players with more knowledge, and some less new players with some knowledge.

Maybe thats the answer. A new under lv 50 camp with just crafted sets or something. Idk, it was unfortunate that it died off but i guess thats just the nature of things. Just like no cp did, but that was due to zos making bad changes. I just think this issue isnt as big as you make it out to be. And while i do think something could be done i completely disagree if that something has anything to do with more bad combat changes, dumbing things down, or nerfing stuff.

Everyone was new at one point, and the people that pushed through to improve and learn are the ones who made it, and the ones who just gave up didnt. Maybe some of them came back to try again later, and maybe some never touched pvp again. Pvp isnt for everyone.

I also think the best thing for new or casual players is a knowledgeable competent pvp player to help them out with good information. Unfortunately with the way zos has been chasing away vet players, especially pvpers, those players are few and far between. Having someone that knows what they are talking about can change everything for a newer pvp player.

[edited to remove quote]

necro_the_crafter · February 21

Game doesnt tell new players that they should come prepared for PvP.

Nowhere in the game it is stated that you are recommended to have at least 30k health, 25k+ resistance, 2k+ crit resistance, at least 3k main stat recovery and mandatory to slot self heals and armor buffs. And all of that just in order to not get killed by colloteral damage.

And game doesnt states that because PvP meta is heavily dictated by players rather than the devs. In most of the other MMOs I played you usually have 1 bis PvP set for your class, that is earned by engaging in PvP, in ESO however, itemization for PvP is tricky. And if new player brigns their overland questing gear, they will get punished hard for that.

While there are some good sets you can buy with AP (ralliyng cry), we also see heavy use of crafted sets (wretched vitality, dragons appetite, daedric trickery etc) as well as dungeon sets (tarnished, draugrkin, etc) as well as monster helms, arena weapons, and certain mithycs. And there is nothing in the game that will tell new player which sets are good for PvP and which are not.

But on the other hand Im sure if people would do a slight research and pick up first magika sorc PvP guide from youtube they will have sucsess, not die as often, and maybe win a few 1v1's on thier day one in PvP.

When I had my first PvP win, it was with a build from a youtube for DK's that used morkuldin/blackrose/bloodspawn/potentate backbar, and that moment is still in my memory. ALthoug with a little help from youtuber whose name I forgot, it felt to me like I solved a complicated riddle, and that feeling was great.

So yea i think that ZoS just have to encourage newer players to do some research before engaging PvP, and definetly not sending them invintation to cyrodil at level 10, or at least lock them to below 50 only campaign.

As far as comparing ESO PvP to other PvP games, I dunno...
I spent a lot of time in one MOBA game, a couple thousands of hours, but when I try to play FPS games, I usually end up with most death in the team, so yea I dont think that battlefield and eso is that much comparable.

I agree with the fact that knowledge of your class and enviorment should come before itemization, and I hope that future changes to PvP would follow that.

I would love to see ZoS make a separate skills as well as sets for PvP that would have a classic tier system.
New players then will start at tier 0, with sets that they can buy from vendors with gold, that would have baseline crit resist and whatever else is nessesary.
And as you progress your rank you will unlock some cool new avaliable to every class stat sets, as well as maybe PvP class specific sets.

moo_2021 · February 21

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

So either pvp will remain niche, or they've gotta do something to kinda onboard more casual players so they can get to where they enjoy it.

When I started BG there were a lot of casuals and almost everyone was killable, skilled or not. I went with my 20kdps DD build and never once felt useless.

Back then people had all sort of builds, and PvE/PvP weren't too dissimilar - I remember templars used to set DoTs, do backlash and jabs, and rally was recommended for healing.

Then hybridization happened. Now you can't play the game without very specialized builds and playstyles. Can they fix it? Revert the whole hybridization thing?

JustLovely · February 21

VoxAdActa wrote: »

In Cyrodiil, you're either an unkillable face-melter who can win a 6v1 while being focus-fired by multiple siege engines, or you're a target.

To become the face-melter, you have to start out doing a lengthy grind in PvE for the specific sets and skills that actually do something. Crafted gear is a non-starter. Overland gear is a non-starter. Most dungeon and trial gear won't be sufficient, either. It's gotta be specific gear, which non-PvPers probably don't have handy, because it's not especially useful in PvE.

If you don't do that step, you won't live long enough to learn anything about how to PvP. There's nothing to learn from dying 7 seconds after you meet the enemy, other than "I suck and this is stupid." You also start learning how to have a thick skin here, because the toxicity from both your allies and your enemies is frequently off the charts compared to the laughably tepid toxicity of PvE.

Once you have a workable gear setup, now the actual work begins: learning to PvP. Now you can start the months-long process of figuring out how to not panic when you get into combat, who to attack, when to attack, how to actually kill someone, and how to escape alive. This can only be done by walking face-first in the failure over and over and over again.

It takes so much more dedication to get into PvP than it does for all but the endest of end-game PvE content. And there are a lot more ways to learn PvE content than "die until something clicks, if that ever happens at all."

Can you imagine if PvE was like this? The first time you ever set foot into a dungeon, you die within seconds, and get teabagged and pushuped and have the quest givers yell at you for sucking (Eboric's Projection: "You tried to come in here with only 25k health? What the bleep is wrong with you? Bleeping loser!")?

And then you're told you can only touch the dungeon after grinding 50 hours for the right equipment, and then you can start to learn basic mechanics like when to block and how to do a rotation?

Even putting aside the community's rampant toxicity, the grinding and learning curves alone keep a whole lot of people out of PvP. Unless PvP is something you just love or you have some burning motivation that forces you to endure it (like I have for alliance rank dye colors), you're going to pop in during an event, get shot in the face and laughed at a few times, then bounce back to PvE saying "never again."

Cyrodiil has never been as toxic as you keep claiming it is. You're also wrong about being able to be competitive in PvP while running crafted sets. There are a few crafted sets that are staples in many PvP builds. I could go on point by point, but you get the idea.

tomofhyrule · February 21

merevie wrote: »

Would you invite a PvP player on a vet trial team with their pvp gear and strategies?

People are not entitled to be able to do any content without learning it.

Yes, that’s the point.

Even PvErs don’t jump straight into vet trials. They learn in normals and train their way up. Maybe play around in overland, then learn to solo public dungeons, be able to hold in normal and then vet dungeons, and then work with a group for normal and then vet trials.

But there’s no entry ramp for PvP. A player who wants to dip their toes into PvP is tossed into the same world as the pros. Sure, the under-50 areas exist, but does that mean anyone over Lv 50 should be considered a pro PvPer? (Or that there aren’t pros who live in the U50 and just delete and remake characters with gold gear to stay there)

PvP doesn’t have a way to learn your way up, except by getting killed on repeat. The idea would be for MMR to place new players together… if the population were even big enough to allow for MMR sorting. And that is what makes PvP frustrating for people who are not all-in on PvP.

spartaxoxo · February 21

moo_2021 wrote: »

Do you think casual PVPers should be able to enjoy vet dungeons without any preparation?

Yeah. Base game vets are available for them to start their journey. I don't think should be able to get trifectas without preparing.

But being able to get their toes wet without blowing up constantly with little clue as to why? They should be able to do that.

JemadarofCaerSalis · February 21

tomofhyrule wrote: »

merevie wrote: »

Would you invite a PvP player on a vet trial team with their pvp gear and strategies?

People are not entitled to be able to do any content without learning it.

Yes, that’s the point.

Even PvErs don’t jump straight into vet trials. They learn in normals and train their way up. Maybe play around in overland, then learn to solo public dungeons, be able to hold in normal and then vet dungeons, and then work with a group for normal and then vet trials.

But there’s no entry ramp for PvP. A player who wants to dip their toes into PvP is tossed into the same world as the pros. Sure, the under-50 areas exist, but does that mean anyone over Lv 50 should be considered a pro PvPer? (Or that there aren’t pros who live in the U50 and just delete and remake characters with gold gear to stay there)

PvP doesn’t have a way to learn your way up, except by getting killed on repeat. The idea would be for MMR to place new players together… if the population were even big enough to allow for MMR sorting. And that is what makes PvP frustrating for people who are not all-in on PvP.

As someone who is trying PvP for the first time (I really want that mining action), this is how I feel.

When I first started eso, I ran around and delves were hard, but then they became easy. I met a clannfear boss that kicked my tail and learned to stay away from World Bosses, I snuck into a public dungeon and was defeated so hard, it took me a year to go back into one.

Today, I have all the base game public dungeons and all the PBs up to necrom (still not quite strong enough to solo them) completed and for the last event, I realized I could camp that clannfear's spawn location and defeat them every five minutes to get a boss.

However, when I stuck my nose in the imperial city, I was tossed in public dungeon with all sorts of clannfears (high level players) with no way to really 'learn' or gradually get better by doing 'easier' content first. The same thing with Cyrodiil.

Today I was killed 4 times in Imperial city, 3 times by the same player, and at least once in Cyrodiil (I mostly stuck to my own alliance areas, which is why I wasn't killed more) and there wasn't much about those kills that taught me anything. Sure, I can look at the death recap, but if I want to know what it means or how to counter those, it means outside research (which isn't bad, but a game mechanic should NOT require it, nor rely on it) There are no NPCs that tell me 'hey, I hope you are beefy (health high enough level) enough to handle this!' or 'hmm, I have heard tell of a special set of armor that is good'.

There aren't really places where players new to PvP can go and dip their toes in the water and test strategies and see how they are working.

I am going to keep at it (I *really* want that mining action, though I sort of doubt I will get it), but, to me, the learning curve is much too high to keep wanting to do it.

VoxAdActa · February 21

JustLovely wrote: »

Cyrodiil has never been as toxic as you keep claiming it is.

I'm genuinely glad for you that you haven't had to experience it. Fewer people should have to.

You're also wrong about being able to be competitive in PvP while running crafted sets.

Yes, I know about wretched vitality and daedric trickery. A sustain set and a set that requires staying alive in combat for 45 seconds to get the full benefit.

Considering most fights with new PvPers don't last long enough for either of those to matter until you're already decent at PvP, I don't see how they're applicable to a discussion about people who are new to PvP.

I could go on point by point, but you get the idea.

I'm sure you could. But perhaps it would be a good idea put that time into considering why the same complaints about PvP keep coming up over and over again from many different people, without the "they just suck" or "nobody wants to work anymore" biases most of the PvP community seems to have.

langewapper · February 21

there are 2 problems in PVP
1 ball groups
2 zos who nerfed all the sets to kill ballgroups

10j PVP player

Iriidius · February 21

moo_2021 wrote: »

A pre-defined loadout won't make any difference unless it's one of max resist builds. The only way casuals can feel better is to have a lot of casuals like before.

Having pre-defined loadouts will definitely make a difference. Experienced players would still have an advantage how it should be but only win if they play better and not because they have better hear. Have tried PvP on char without PvP build and no chance against players I could have 1vXed on my main.

Iriidius · February 21

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

moo_2021 wrote: »

Do you think casual PVPers should be able to enjoy vet dungeons without any preparation?

But that's the thing right? You don't jump right into a vet dungeon without any preparation. There's overland, delves, public dungeons, normal dungeons, DLC dungeons, normal trials, vet dungeons, vet DLC dungeons, vet trials. There's a progression. I think the issue people are trying to get it (that I happen to agree with) is that pvp *is* like kinda like jumping right into high end pve content without the progression. It turns a lot of people off. One can tell them they need to L2P and get good, but imo the skill gap is huge, the learning curve is huge, and the population that wants to bang their heads against the wall like that is fairly low. So either pvp will remain niche, or they've gotta do something to kinda onboard more casual players so they can get to where they enjoy it.

merevie wrote: »

Would you invite a PvP player on a vet trial team with their pvp gear and strategies?

People are not entitled to be able to do any content without learning it.

If you are not prepared for vet trial/dungeon/arena you can do normal trials, dungeons, arenas or overland.
If you are not prepared for Cyrodiil(/IC/PvP/Duell) and want an easier version there is nothing. There is no seperation between different skill levels, not even between ballgroups and solo players.

Chrisilis · February 21

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

Game doesnt tell new players that they should come prepared for PvP.

Nowhere in the game it is stated that you are recommended to have at least 30k health, 25k+ resistance, 2k+ crit resistance, at least 3k main stat recovery and mandatory to slot self heals and armor buffs. And all of that just in order to not get killed by colloteral damage.

And game doesnt states that because PvP meta is heavily dictated by players rather than the devs. In most of the other MMOs I played you usually have 1 bis PvP set for your class, that is earned by engaging in PvP, in ESO however, itemization for PvP is tricky. And if new player brigns their overland questing gear, they will get punished hard for that.

While there are some good sets you can buy with AP (ralliyng cry), we also see heavy use of crafted sets (wretched vitality, dragons appetite, daedric trickery etc) as well as dungeon sets (tarnished, draugrkin, etc) as well as monster helms, arena weapons, and certain mithycs. And there is nothing in the game that will tell new player which sets are good for PvP and which are not.

But on the other hand Im sure if people would do a slight research and pick up first magika sorc PvP guide from youtube they will have sucsess, not die as often, and maybe win a few 1v1's on thier day one in PvP.

When I had my first PvP win, it was with a build from a youtube for DK's that used morkuldin/blackrose/bloodspawn/potentate backbar, and that moment is still in my memory. ALthoug with a little help from youtuber whose name I forgot, it felt to me like I solved a complicated riddle, and that feeling was great.

So yea i think that ZoS just have to encourage newer players to do some research before engaging PvP, and definetly not sending them invintation to cyrodil at level 10, or at least lock them to below 50 only campaign.

As far as comparing ESO PvP to other PvP games, I dunno...
I spent a lot of time in one MOBA game, a couple thousands of hours, but when I try to play FPS games, I usually end up with most death in the team, so yea I dont think that battlefield and eso is that much comparable.

I agree with the fact that knowledge of your class and enviorment should come before itemization, and I hope that future changes to PvP would follow that.

I would love to see ZoS make a separate skills as well as sets for PvP that would have a classic tier system.
New players then will start at tier 0, with sets that they can buy from vendors with gold, that would have baseline crit resist and whatever else is nessesary.
And as you progress your rank you will unlock some cool new avaliable to every class stat sets, as well as maybe PvP class specific sets.

A PvP tutorial would be a great idea! Maybe a BG "how to choose your gear" class or a step by step 1v1 with an NPC in a BG mockup followed by an intro to each mode, or "An Intro To Cyrodil" tutorial which covered more than just siege, things like scoring, strategy, emperorship, etc. Maybe more people would play if they weren't jumped in blind and told to "figure it out" via mostly outdated YT videos

Tinkerhorn · February 21

I do think they should provide a small selection of 'ready made' builds that people can select who want to when entering just so people can get an idea as to how to build, how things feel etc..
Something as simple as prismatic rally/wretched backbar and orderswrath front would make a big difference to a lot of these PvE'rs. No disrespect to them but a lot just don't know what they're doing and are not shown what to do, yet to get involved would have to possibly invest a lot of time and resources to try out their first build and this is before you get in to cp slots, traits, enchants, pots, and mundus. Don't give them a guide, just give them a selection of varied but trusty builds and they can then work from there or just keep at it. A guide just isn't going to provide enough for people to work with and will set them up for failure just as much as for success.

necro_the_crafter · February 21

Chrisilis wrote: »

A PvP tutorial would be a great idea! Maybe a BG "how to choose your gear" class or a step by step 1v1 with an NPC in a BG mockup followed by an intro to each mode, or "An Intro To Cyrodil" tutorial which covered more than just siege, things like scoring, strategy, emperorship, etc. Maybe more people would play if they weren't jumped in blind and told to "figure it out" via mostly outdated YT videos

Yea indeed. If game had a PvE arena where you have to fight NPC bosses that use class skills akin to how player would use them, then newer players would be prepared better to react in PvP.
For example you have to fight NB boss that would go invisible and then gank you with incap+bow, sorc NPC that would time its overload LA into curse proc, Warden and DK whose ultimates (winter and corrosive) you have to kite, necro... who will... em... be there... spawning skeletons....

moo_2021 · February 21

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

There aren't really places where players new to PvP can go and dip their toes in the water and test strategies and see how they are working.

BG was, and still is the best way to learn PVP. You get a group fighting together, sometimes with healers. Turn on combat metrics and you can see how others are doing and learn from them.

JaxontheUnfortunate · February 21

Really joining an active PvP guild made a big difference for me.

katanagirl1 · February 21

I can see both sides, you should have to prepare for PvP just like PvE requires it for harder content. However, most PvE players don’t participate in harder content so they are not used to seeing how important it can be to have the right gear and skills. The game does not tell you how to prepare for a trial, so why should it do the same for PvP? How would PvP loadouts even work? Is the player given the gear in certain traits and weights and not have to buy or craft it themselves? I would object to that. You should not enter the battlefield with zero investment on your part. You have to fill your stickerbook, get transmutes, and do trait research and level up crafting to get gear for trials.

I’ve been in a Cyrodiil campaign for many years. Researching builds and playing for years does not make me unkillable by default. I die less, but I wonder if that would be good enough for new players. I have always said that PvE makes players think that dying means they failed somehow. In PvP you die often while doing all the right things, no way to change that. When you get better you die less often. Some people can’t deal with that.

I admit though that right now there are several sets that make PvP unbearable even for experienced players, Rush of Agony pulls with no warning, followed by a dozen ulti dumps on top of that. Tarnished procs that set you up for a follow up kill as well. A whole group of players with all of them wearing these sets and all running heals is often an insurmountable object. That is what should be changed. Gear should not carry players. Most, if not all, of the players on the leaderboards wear these sets.

Even if classes were balanced in PvP and those objectionable gear sets were nerfed, skilled players will always have an advantage. There is nothing unfair about that. As a new player you will still struggle until you get the right gear and skills, just like you will in a trial group when you start.

sshogrin · February 21

moo_2021 wrote: »

Do you think casual PVPers should be able to enjoy vet dungeons without any preparation?

Vet dungeons are NOT the same as PvP, that's what normal dungeons are for.
PvP is like getting thrown straight into a vet dungeon or vet trial with no knowledge of anything or having sets.
There aren't really dungeon and trial sets that allow you to pull all the npcs in and one shot them with the same set.
You can't stealth gank npcs either.