LadyGP wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Oh, so this is about PvP.

Can it not be about both? "The Game" is both PvE and PvP is it not?

The game consists of PvP, and PvE, and Housing, and Tales of Tribute, and Trading, etc.. When "the game" is being referred to in the subject of a thread, most players aren't going to immediately think the thread is about PvP specifically. Stating PvP in the subject would make it more clear what the thread is about

SilverBride wrote: »

Stating PvP in the subject would make it more clear what the thread is about

They know that. They just made the thread title as edgy and click-baity as possible (and then never returned to the thread, hmmm).

Or, and my experience with PvPers tells me this is fully plausible, they believe that PvP is the game, or at least the only important part of the game.

CatoUnchained wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Oh, so this is about PvP.

It's not just about PvP. The population over the entire game has seen a mass exodus since U35 and the trend continues today. But the exodus is most notable for the end game community with the PvP die hards and the end game PvE communities suffering the most losses due primarily to unresolved performance issues.

"there are none so blind as those who will not see"

I am not a die hard PvP or end game player, but those aren't the only activities in the game, and it's a minority that regularly engages in them. If PvP populations are declining it may have something to do with the toxicity of the community. (See the thread about the Stream Team member for an example.)

CatoUnchained wrote: »

And, this thread is not just about PvP. The PvE community is bleeding players at an alarming rate too.

No, it isn't.

SilverBride wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Oh, so this is about PvP.

It's not just about PvP. The population over the entire game has seen a mass exodus since U35 and the trend continues today. But the exodus is most notable for the end game community with the PvP die hards and the end game PvE communities suffering the most losses due primarily to unresolved performance issues.

"there are none so blind as those who will not see"

I am not a die hard PvP or end game player, but those aren't the only activities in the game, and it's a minority that regularly engages in them. If PvP populations are declining it may have something to do with the toxicity of the community. (See the thread about the Stream Team member for an example.)

You seem to be under the impression that those who are anything other than totally casual players are in the minority. This is not an accurate assumption. Most players move onto end game activities as soon as they are good enough to do so, or they move on to a different game. The long term strictly casual player is in the minority population, not the other way around.

CatoUnchained wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Stating PvP in the subject would make it more clear what the thread is about

They know that. They just made the thread title as edgy and click-baity as possible (and then never returned to the thread, hmmm).

Or, and my experience with PvPers tells me this is fully plausible, they believe that PvP is the game, or at least the only important part of the game.

Actually it's usually the PvE community that refuses to acknowledge the importance and legitimacy of PvP; dismissing the legitimacy of PvP as you just did. And point of fact, PvP IS the end game activity along with vet trials/trifectas.

And, this thread is not just about PvP. The PvE community is bleeding players at an alarming rate too.

Gee, I wonder why the PvE community doesn't acknowledge the legitimacy of PvP, or why so many PvEers fervently hope that the PvP community will continue to quarantine themselves in their toxic bubble of slurs, sexual harassment, and exploiting. It's so strange how the PvP endeavors and pursuits are greeted with a chorus of "I'll never PvP." It's such a mystery. I guess we'll never know the answer, huh?

PvP is dying, because fewer and fewer people are willing to put up with the PvP community, much of which is stuck in the morals and ethics of late 1990s Xbox Online lobbies. And the rest of the playerbase will respond with "Oh no. ....Anyway....".

TL;DR: PvP is not "the game." It's a small subset of people who do everything they can to keep it small. Conflating PvP with "the game" is, at best, clickbait, and, at worst, shows a severe lack of insight into the root causes of the PvP community's population decline.

CatoUnchained wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Oh, so this is about PvP.

It's not just about PvP. The population over the entire game has seen a mass exodus since U35 and the trend continues today. But the exodus is most notable for the end game community with the PvP die hards and the end game PvE communities suffering the most losses due primarily to unresolved performance issues.

"there are none so blind as those who will not see"

I am not a die hard PvP or end game player, but those aren't the only activities in the game, and it's a minority that regularly engages in them. If PvP populations are declining it may have something to do with the toxicity of the community. (See the thread about the Stream Team member for an example.)

You seem to be under the impression that those who are anything other than totally casual players are in the minority. This is not an accurate assumption. Most players move onto end game activities as soon as they are good enough to do so, or they move on to a different game. The long term strictly casual player is in the minority population, not the other way around.

ESO has seen an enormous number of players pass through over the years. ZoS constantly boasts about 20+ million original accounts created (though it’s unclear how they count original accounts and distinguish them from bots; also, while bot activity certainly harms the game, it does indicate a healthy level of interest in it). But where are all these players?

@SilverBride is somewhat right. ESO has acted like a giant sieve, filtering through millions of players and leaving only a certain group behind. This certain group of players seems to have been the majority for several years now, and it is noticeable. However, the fact that they are the majority does not necessarily mean that this population is sufficient for the game’s survival. It’s no coincidence that ZoS is changing its development strategy, promising diverse and non-casual content in the future, and I believe there’s no argument to be made against that.

Also, someone is trying to shift the discussion toward "PvP is dead." But no, I’m talking about all content where you actually have to do something. And I’d like to remind everyone that a single Cyrodiil campaign currently holds only 180 players. Even with a queue of 80+, that is still critically low for an entire server.

VoxAdActa wrote: »

shezof wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Oh, so this is about PvP.

why a lot of people on forums like to pretend PvP doesnt exist? it was literally a major marketing point for ESO. long term sustain for this game isnt PvE, its PvP.

That's a bold statement to make, seeing as PvPers are a minority of the playerbase. Especially since many of them seem to be dead set on making sure new PvPers have the most difficult, unpleasant experience possible (particularly in the Battlegrounds, where we get yelled at for playing the game as described instead of as a giant death battle).

state of pvp is not because of the players.

Every hardcore player started all the same.

You can blame Zos for the state of everything but its also a broad problem. Countering your point on PvP players being minority i would argue they are actually not and instead majority of them they dont use the forums .

Its hard to make any PvP discussion in the forums without toxic casual players trying to derail any comments being made. Thats literally happening on this topic right now, check all the replies i got and others.

shezof wrote: »

state of pvp is not because of the players.

It's 100% because of the players. Heck, even the performance issues are caused by the players (ball groups). ZOS puts a disproportionate amount of time into pandering to the PvP community, so much so that they've nerfed multiple PvE sets into the ground because PvPers complained about them.

Countering your point on PvP players being minority i would argue they are actually not and instead majority of them they dont use the forums.

I understand your desire to believe that, but there's absolutely no data whatsoever to support it.

Its hard to make any PvP discussion in the forums without toxic casual players trying to derail any comments being made. Thats literally happening on this topic right now, check all the replies i got and others.

Weird. Wonder why the PvE community might be so primed to be wary and hostile towards PvPers. Someone should really get to the bottom of this.

Pvp zone isn't dead. You can easily find three of four team purple ball groups at AD home keeps pretty much any time during the morning, afternoon, or evening.

CatoUnchained wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Oh, so this is about PvP.

It's not just about PvP. The population over the entire game has seen a mass exodus since U35 and the trend continues today. But the exodus is most notable for the end game community with the PvP die hards and the end game PvE communities suffering the most losses due primarily to unresolved performance issues.

"there are none so blind as those who will not see"

I am not a die hard PvP or end game player, but those aren't the only activities in the game, and it's a minority that regularly engages in them. If PvP populations are declining it may have something to do with the toxicity of the community. (See the thread about the Stream Team member for an example.)

You seem to be under the impression that those who are anything other than totally casual players are in the minority. This is not an accurate assumption. Most players move onto end game activities as soon as they are good enough to do so, or they move on to a different game. The long term strictly casual player is in the minority population, not the other way around.

The majority of players in pretty much any game is casual. Endgame tends to have a healthy population but it's not the majority of players.

shezof wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Oh, so this is about PvP.

why a lot of people on forums like to pretend PvP doesnt exist? it was literally a major marketing point for ESO. long term sustain for this game isnt PvE, its PvP.

Because, it's a failed contents as game design. And, ESO PVP never become "major" contents
from 10 years ago. It's not only design failure, but also marketing failure as ElderScrolls fan base.

And, developer already notice those "fact". It's a business matter. People don't want to pay money
only for ESO PVP anymore.

(Personally, I'm not PVP contents hater, but I hate ESO PVP)

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ZOS isn't even doing chapters anymore either. They keep cutting content.

They aren't planning to do large, one-per-year "chapters" as they'd been doing since TESO:Morrowind, but that is about them wanting to change their development cycle to be more adaptive.

Content previously referred to as "chapters"-- large zones that follow a formula or pattern established with TESO:Orsinium (which itself was a "DLC" rather than a "chapter"), and which reportedly took nearly 2 years to develop and were released on pre-announced deadlines ("release dates")-- will be replaced by "seasons" (presumably released four times a year).

This will allow the development teams to be "lighter on their feet" (as I think Rich put it during an ESO Live stream) as far as being able to put certain things on hold so other things can be worked on as the need arises.

With the "chapter" model, the lengthy time frames involved meant that the development teams were generally about 2 years behind as far as trying to keep up with the playerbase's changing wants and needs.

They can still release new zones, quests, and other content, but freeing themselves of the "chapter" development cycle and philosophy will let them release smaller zones (to fill in some of the "empty" spots on the map) that aren't large enough to be part of a "chapter," as well as larger "chapter"-sized zones that can be developed over periods too lengthy for a "chapter," and that if desired can be broken up into multiple smaller releases instead of trying to meet an all-at-once deadline which might necessitate cutting out content that looked like it wouldn't be completed in time for final testing and "The Big Release."

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

But no, I’m talking about all content where you actually have to do something.

I have seen precisely 0 evidence in support of that claim. I assume you mean trials, trifectas, and leaderboard pushes? I have no issues getting into as many of those as I want to; the problem is that I have to turn down opportunities to participate because of scheduling conflicts, not that I can't find people to do them with.

In the realm of more general observations, zone chat is always active no matter the hour of the day or night (except in zones that have always been empty because they have nothing to offer people after the quests are completed, like Malabal Tor). Wayshrines in major cities are always crowded. The dueling site outside of Elden Root is never empty. Any time I go to Evermore or Riften, there's a 50% chance of getting to watch some roleplayers putting on an event in the inn. The guild store markets are stable; high level mats haven't drastically declined in price or availability, which would be expected in a game where the top-level players are siphoning off to other games.

Every indicator I have direct access to shows that PvE is doing just fine. But I'd be fascinated to examine your data.

What is your explanation as to why ZOS is scaling back their new content so radically then? If it's not a loss of revenue due to loss of players and the income that comes with their departure, why is ZOS cutting back so severely on new content creation?

VoxAdActa wrote: »

shezof wrote: »

state of pvp is not because of the players.

It's 100% because of the players. Heck, even the performance issues are caused by the players (ball groups). ZOS puts a disproportionate amount of time into pandering to the PvP community, so much so that they've nerfed multiple PvE sets into the ground because PvPers complained about them.

Countering your point on PvP players being minority i would argue they are actually not and instead majority of them they dont use the forums.

I understand your desire to believe that, but there's absolutely no data whatsoever to support it.

Its hard to make any PvP discussion in the forums without toxic casual players trying to derail any comments being made. Thats literally happening on this topic right now, check all the replies i got and others.

Weird. Wonder why the PvE community might be so primed to be wary and hostile towards PvPers. Someone should really get to the bottom of this.

Where is the evidence to support Ball Groups causing lag? Cyrodiil was a slide show long before "Ball Groups" were on the scene. It was so bad back in the Azura's Star days that the screen would just freeze and everyone would just spam skills until somebody won. Usually on a flag when 50 people were there.

Still waiting for Zenimax to actually fix long-standing issues. No wonder the game is dying.