Should players be allowed to inspect gear and looted items from other players?

GloatingSwine · February 12

No, others should not be allowed to inspect us.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

[
I think it's a bunch of people concerned they'll be harassed out in overland for wearing "bad gear" or rejected from pugs. It's a fair concern that it will be misused but all tools are misused. And people can do that without an inspect too.

Not really.

Because the people who would turn this feature into a problem are the sort of people who aren't using combat logs because they don't even know that exists, they're the scrubs who just want to be carried through dungeon runs and have read or watched a meta build guide and think it's the only way to play a class or role because they themselves are scrubs.

TybaltKaine · February 12

No, others should not be allowed to inspect us.

Nah, just breeds digital elitism. It would rapidly degenerate into the MMO version of making fun of your shoes at school.

spartaxoxo · February 12

Other (please describe your thoughts)

GloatingSwine wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

[
I think it's a bunch of people concerned they'll be harassed out in overland for wearing "bad gear" or rejected from pugs. It's a fair concern that it will be misused but all tools are misused. And people can do that without an inspect too.

Not really.

Because the people who would turn this feature into a problem are the sort of people who aren't using combat logs because they don't even know that exists, they're the scrubs who just want to be carried through dungeon runs and have read or watched a meta build guide and think it's the only way to play a class or role because they themselves are scrubs.

Console can't even use combat logs.

Four_Fingers · February 12

No, others should not be allowed to inspect us.

How many polls and threads that show ESO doesn't want player inspection does it take?
Resounding no every time.

ApoAlaia · February 12

Other (please describe your thoughts)

I remember this being a 'feature' in FFXI and also the source of debate from the get go.

Some players really took umbrage to the /check command being used on them, others used it over an over again [on the same player, you got notified when someone was 'checking you'] but I never understood to what end.

Personally I didn't mind it then and I wouldn't mind it now either but 'back then' I only used it to check people's 'bazaar' (you could basically set your character as a shop selling stuff in your inventory) and in all the time I have been playing ESO not once I have missed this 'feature'.

Taril · February 12

Ph1p wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

This is a common feature in other MMORPGs. For instance, EQ and WoW feature this. I’m not sure why ESO players are so opposed to such a basic idea.

Genuine question: How does the inspection feature exactly work in those games? How and under what circumstances can you view other people’s setups?

In those games you simply right click on their character's portrait and select "Inspect" and you get to see their equipment loadout.

So long as you can target someone, you can inspect them.

In addition, WoW actually has an online database where every character is stored, meaning you can search a character up on the official website and you get to see their exact build, all their gear their talent choices, achievements, literally everything about their character (Based on what they last logged out with).

For a game like Anarchy Online, when being inspected you'd get a little chat notification of "X player is inspecting you" but you also had an settings option to prevent people from being able to inspect you. But otherwise it worked in much the same way.

It's been a pretty common feature of MMO's and generally has the same basis. Interacting with a player portrait > Inspect and then pulling up their character doll (As if you were looking at your own characters equipment). With only some games like AO providing any indication that someone is doing anything.

Overall, such systems have various pros and cons.

The pros are often things like, being able to get better advice about your build, being able to look and see what cool and fancy items/transmogs a player is using, checking what kind of build someone has - All without having to disturb anyone else.

The cons are as noted throughout the thread, that people often abuse such things to be mean to other players.

Orbital78 · February 12

I can already inspect players to see why they are doing so good or bad via /encounterlog.

TaSheen · February 12

No, others should not be allowed to inspect us.

Ph1p wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

This is a common feature in other MMORPGs. For instance, EQ and WoW feature this. I’m not sure why ESO players are so opposed to such a basic idea.

Genuine question: How does the inspection feature exactly work in those games? How and under what circumstances can you view other people’s setups?

Long time back when I played WoW and RIFT, all you had to do was right-click on a character, and select "Inspect". It wasn't optional and there was a LOT of nastiness from "vets" to newer players. Daughter said they made some changes but I didn't care enough to ask what - never been back to either game, won't touch them again.

spartaxoxo · February 12

Other (please describe your thoughts)

Four_Fingers wrote: »

How many polls and threads that show ESO doesn't want player inspection does it take?
Resounding no every time.

When looking for other polls on this, I only got 9 results. Not all of those results were about inspect.

It was unpopular in 2 of the 3 polls (aside from this one) and the one it wasn't had low participation. But, the last one was in 2018. I think 7 years is long enough to poll it again, personally.

anadandy · February 12

No, others should not be allowed to inspect us.

Its a hard No for me personally, but if it was optional for people who want it (meaning opt in for being viewed) I wouldn't die on that hill.

I have had people ask me directly what styles I'm wearing, or what skill I used and I'm happy to reply. I think actual interaction is better than any anonymous "snoop" button.

Loot sniffers though, irritating and rude. I've dropped group mid run because of that add on.

DreamsUnderStars · February 12

No, others should not be allowed to inspect us.

This isn't warcraft, lets not turn this game into a toxic dumpsterfire.

spartaxoxo · February 12

Other (please describe your thoughts)

Taril wrote: »

The pros are often things like, being able to get better advice about your build, being able to look and see what cool and fancy items/transmogs a player is using, checking what kind of build someone has - All without having to disturb anyone else.

The cons are as noted throughout the thread, that people often abuse such things to be mean to other players.

Yup in other games it's

PROS

Easier to learn how to build gear

Collab is easier

Easier to build groups

Works as nice advertisement for certain fashion stuff

People may ask you where you got stuff

Cons

Used for harassment, not rampant but often enough to be an issue worth noting

Used for gatekeeping PUGs

People can jock your style

People may ask you where you got stuff

Your gear won't be top secret

twisttop138 · February 12

No, others should not be allowed to inspect us.

Ph1p wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

This is a common feature in other MMORPGs. For instance, EQ and WoW feature this. I’m not sure why ESO players are so opposed to such a basic idea.

Genuine question: How does the inspection feature exactly work in those games? How and under what circumstances can you view other people’s setups?

I know you didn't ask me per se but I can give you an answer from my experience. I voted no but really I have no dog in the fight. My guilds don't care what I'm wearing and help me through dungeons to get better gear and teach me trial mechanics so I don't care if people can see it.

I played SWTOR for many years back when it launched till this game came around and raiding died there. The inspection feature was native. I'm that game gear has slots for mods, and you could click a person, see what they're wearing, what mods their gear had. It was pretty standard for pug raids to inspect gear. As time went on, linking your parse also. This did lead to gatekeeping for sure and toxic behavior but I see it this way. If someone wants to not let me in their group cause of my gear, they're probably not my kind of people anyway. I joined a good guild. Same option here.

Edit to add: it was also cool cause if someone had a cool store outfit combo you could see what it was.

anadandy · February 12

No, others should not be allowed to inspect us.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

anadandy wrote: »

The pros are often things like, being able to get better advice about your build, being able to look and see what cool and fancy items/transmogs a player is using, checking what kind of build someone has - All without having to disturb anyone else.

The cons are as noted throughout the thread, that people often abuse such things to be mean to other players.

Yup in other games it's

PROS

Easier to learn how to build gear

Collab is easier

Easier to build groups

Works as nice advertisement for certain fashion stuff

People may ask you where you got stuff

Cons

Used for harassment, not rampant but often enough to be an issue worth noting

Used for gatekeeping PUGs

People can jock your style

People may ask you where you got stuff

Your gear won't be top secret

I think you quoted the wrong person here

spartaxoxo · February 12

Other (please describe your thoughts)

anadandy wrote: »

I think you quoted the wrong person here

Sorry! I fixed it.

VoxAdActa · February 12

No, others should not be allowed to inspect us.

The only inspection mechanic I'd support is a cosmetic one. I sometimes wish I could see what style motifs/dye colors someone is using for their outfit, or what the name of the costume they're wearing is. "Oh, those gloves are cute! What are they? I can't tell."

Sometimes I DM someone who's got a seriously neat-o outfit on to find out what they used for it. But I'd support a right-click "inspect" for that.

For gear, though? Unnecessary and useless. Information on the "best" gear to wear for every activity is already freely available through a hundred other sources. A lot of people seem to think that only a real-time "inspect" mechanic can solve their insufficiency at in-game activities (PvP especially); I do not know how or why this faulty presupposition exists, but it's not true.

Even in the best-case, most charitable interpretation, it's still like going to a Magic: The Gathering tournament and demanding to rifle through your opponent's deck under the mistaken belief that just seeing all their cards will teach you how to play better.

DigiAngel · February 12

Other (please describe your thoughts)

In PvE, yes. in PvP, no.

sans-culottes · February 12

Yes, we should be allowed to inspect others.

VoxAdActa wrote: »

The only inspection mechanic I'd support is a cosmetic one. I sometimes wish I could see what style motifs/dye colors someone is using for their outfit, or what the name of the costume they're wearing is. "Oh, those gloves are cute! What are they? I can't tell."

Sometimes I DM someone who's got a seriously neat-o outfit on to find out what they used for it. But I'd support a right-click "inspect" for that.

For gear, though? Unnecessary and useless. Information on the "best" gear to wear for every activity is already freely available through a hundred other sources. A lot of people seem to think that only a real-time "inspect" mechanic can solve their insufficiency at in-game activities (PvP especially); I do not know how or why this faulty presupposition exists, but it's not true.

Even in the best-case, most charitable interpretation, it's still like going to a Magic: The Gathering tournament and demanding to rifle through your opponent's deck under the mistaken belief that just seeing all their cards will teach you how to play better.

I’m curious: What about, say, requiring x parse to join a guild y or run z? Why is being able to inspect gear more invasive than asking people to, for example, upload their parses?

PS. Ironically, the presupposition here is assuming that’s what people would use this for. Some might even call that begging the question, as it’s not clear to me this has been established at all.

ESO_player123 · February 12

No, others should not be allowed to inspect us.

sans-culottes wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

The only inspection mechanic I'd support is a cosmetic one. I sometimes wish I could see what style motifs/dye colors someone is using for their outfit, or what the name of the costume they're wearing is. "Oh, those gloves are cute! What are they? I can't tell."

Sometimes I DM someone who's got a seriously neat-o outfit on to find out what they used for it. But I'd support a right-click "inspect" for that.

For gear, though? Unnecessary and useless. Information on the "best" gear to wear for every activity is already freely available through a hundred other sources. A lot of people seem to think that only a real-time "inspect" mechanic can solve their insufficiency at in-game activities (PvP especially); I do not know how or why this faulty presupposition exists, but it's not true.

Even in the best-case, most charitable interpretation, it's still like going to a Magic: The Gathering tournament and demanding to rifle through your opponent's deck under the mistaken belief that just seeing all their cards will teach you how to play better.

I’m curious: What about, say, requiring x parse to join a guild y or run z? Why is being able to inspect gear more invasive than asking people to, for example, upload their parses?

PS. Ironically, the presupposition here is assuming that’s what people would use this for. Some might even call that begging the question, as it’s not clear to me this has been established at all.

I think the difference here is in the bolded part. If a player does not want to upload a parse after being asked they won't. Yes, they probably won't be accepted, but they have a choice. If there is no option to stay private with this inspection feature, then the players do not have a choice to refuse.

sans-culottes · February 12

Yes, we should be allowed to inspect others.

So it’s less of an ask—an “intrusion,” if you will? Personally, I think it’s way more of a pain to post parses given that I’m stuck on the PSNA server.

VoxAdActa · February 12

No, others should not be allowed to inspect us.

sans-culottes wrote: »

I’m curious: What about, say, requiring x parse to join a guild y or run z?

I don't like that, either. But at least I have the choice to do it or abstain from doing it. I do not have someone walking up to me, right-clicking on my character, and seeing all of the last 10 times I attacked a dummy or a raid boss.

Why is being able to inspect gear more invasive than asking people to, for example, upload their parses?

Because one is voluntary and the other is not. In the other thread, I keep hammering phrases like consent, freely available, choose to share, willingly publish, etc. This proposed "inspect" mechanic is especially galling because it takes choice from another person for no tangible gain. Inspecting my gear accomplishes nothing for the inspector. I feel like they only want to do it specifically because I don't want them to. You've already admitted that there's nothing special or secret to learn from it, so what other reason is left?

PS. Ironically, the presupposition here is assuming that’s what people would use this for.

Good point. It really is a shame we have no other games with an "inspect" mechanic that we can examine. It'd be very informative to see how people use it in practice. Alas.

Taril · February 12

sans-culottes wrote: »

Right? Too bad none of the falling skies predicted here happened in, what’s it called? World of Warcraft? EverQuest?

Except it did and routinely does?

Literally all games that have this feature invariably end up having a lot of gatekeeping/rudeness occur due to it.

WoW has been particularly bad with it at various points during its life.

whitecrow · February 12

No, others should not be allowed to inspect us.

No, it was always a bit creepy when someone would ask for a drop I just got. And I don't think I'd want to invite comments about what I was using myself, either.

sans-culottes · February 12

Yes, we should be allowed to inspect others.

whitecrow wrote: »

No, it was always a bit creepy when someone would ask for a drop I just got. And I don't think I'd want to invite comments about what I was using myself, either.

It’s definitely awkward to have people begging you for a drop. What comments would this invite? People keep saying this, and unless you’re in some sort of highly structured PVE environment where gatekeeping already occurs via, say, parses you have to upload—far more intrusive and time-intensive than a gear check—the idea that you’ll suddenly be a target of mockery or something is something you can safely put out of your head.

People inclined to be mean and nasty and to make various accusations that come from their deep-rooted insecurities will be mean anyway, and the good news is most of us aren’t that interesting to random strangers online.

More often than not, it’s random people saying “omg wow that’s a cool so-and-so.”

wilykcat · February 12

No, others should not be allowed to inspect us.

No. I don't need another raider io. I left world of warcraft because of all the player inspection that that game requires. I'm not worried about what another player wears while in a dungeon or battleground. I just want to play the game and have fun.

sans-culottes · February 12

Yes, we should be allowed to inspect others.

wilykcat wrote: »

No. I don't need another raider io. I left world of warcraft because of all the player inspection that that game requires. I'm not worried about what another player wears while in a dungeon or battleground. I just want to play the game and have fun.

@wilykcat, out of curiosity, what’s your take on parses? I’m thinking in particular about needing to upload them, to provide parses, etc. If that’s not an area of the game you interact with, then obviously that’s kind of irrelevant.

Tyrobag · February 12

No, others should not be allowed to inspect us.

Mind. Your. Own. Business.

ZOS_GregoryV · February 12

After removing some posts, we would like to ask everyone that all comments remain civil, constructive, and within the guidelines of the Community Rules. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please take a few moments to review them here.

Regards,
-Greg-

spartaxoxo · February 12

Other (please describe your thoughts)

The pros and cons both exist in those other games.

People use them to learn and collaborate better all the time. This is why they're extremely common in the genre. They objectively improve the ability for someone to learn by playing and to quickly collaborate even in the face of things like language barriers.

They're also used for unnecessary gatekeeping and people do harass people sometimes too.

I think when it's a feature that's been in so many games over decades, it becomes very obvious that there are easily observable and objective pros and cons. Attempting to act as either doesn't exist is not being objective in argumentation.

ceruulean · February 12

Other (please describe your thoughts)

I think we should be able to inspect ally skillbars, that's not really a trade secret that matters too much. But inspecting gear feels gross. Also, that loot drop addon is annoying. If i feel like being a loot goblin and hoarding my loot, I don't want people pming and asking for my loot.