is it lore friendly?

LuC1ll3atTh3Wh33L · February 7

who cares!
with so much else that isn't lore friendly, i think it's time we had a bard class.
i know i know, a lot of folks are afraid of bards because they are the strongest of all classes, but it will be ok.

tomofhyrule · February 7

The Elder Scrolls series does have Bards, but they're not really the D&D-style Bards that everyone thinks of when someone mentions "Bards." Being a bard in TES means... you play an instrument and make people happy when they're drinking at the tavern. And that's about it.

Now the Nords have Skalds, which are Bards who also go out and fight, so the closest equivalent to something D&D-related would be a Bard/Fighter multiclass. Previous games in the series that also had classes (Morrowind, Oblivion, etc) also had Bards, but in those cases a Bard was more like the Bards you see in the Dragon Age series, where they're a lot closer along the Rogue-y lines with stealth skills and illusion magic to go along with their speechcraft.

So in short: no TES series doesn't have full D&D Bards. But it does have D&D Multiclassed Bards with Rogues or Fighters.

Now, another thing that does exist in the TES universe is music-as-magic, which is most often seen with the Dwemer - most of their stuff is based on Tonal Architecture, so there is a whole set of lore (that isn't very well discovered yet, hint hint...) based on that. We see a lot of that in the Gnisis eggmine quest with Remus Demnevanni. That could easily lead into a D&D Bard-esque thing, particularly as part of a class instead of an entire class in itself.

That's also a major issue with a "Bard class" - in ESO, a Class needs to have 3 skill lines and be able to do all three PvE roles. It's easy enough to come up with some skills where a Bard cold radiate a wave to heal/buff allies or damage enemies, but can you pull that into 14 more skills and 3 ultimates?

It'd probably be easier to make the 'Bard' part one of the three Class lines, and then you can use it to support the others. For example, one of the things I want to see so bad is a Dwemer Artificer class, where the 'Tonal Magic' line essentially ends up being the D&D Bard people want. The other two lines could then deal with pet/armor summons and tools/traps to cover the rest of the roles. I do have a mockup here of how I'd work that.

Taril · February 7

LuC1ll3atTh3Wh33L wrote: »

who cares!

Quite a few people actually.

Just because some things in the game aren't lore friendly, doesn't mean everyone is suddenly happy with lore not being considered at all.

LuC1ll3atTh3Wh33L wrote: »

with so much else that isn't lore friendly, i think it's time we had a bard class.

To be fair, a "Bard" class isn't even lore unfriendly.

Since the Dro-m'Athra exist which explicitly use dark songs for their power. Of course, this probably isn't what you imagined as a "Bard class" but it would be the most lore friendly one.

Of course, Dro-m'Athra are unique to Khajit only, since as a race they are constantly hearing the songs of Namira and Azurah thus being able to be corrupted by the song of Namira and become Dro-m'Athra.

That said, I don't believe it's explicitly stated that Namira (Or Azurah) cannot influence other races at all, or that their songs cannot be tapped into by other races (Much like how Sorcerers can pull Daedra from Coldharbor or Arcanists can channel Hermaeus Mora's power - To say nothing of other classes utilizing (D)Aedric power like DK's with Akatosh, Templar with Stendarr, NB with Nocturnal. Or Hircine bestowing the gift of Lycanthropy)

So there could theoretically, be a lore friendly Bard class that uses songs from Namira and Azurah to battle with, providing harm and aid respectively.

Tandor · February 7

Most people think only of bards as musicians/singers, but traditionally they're also poets and story writers. Using music as an attacking instrument/weapon-based skill is a bit far-fetched for me, although calming music could have a role in healing.

I'd have no issue with bards in ESO as long as they were introduced in a way that was sympathetic to the TES lore. Perhaps initially they could be the basis for a new companion rather than as a fully-fledged character with complete skill lines etc.

For me, Vanguard is the only game to have completely nailed bards as a class.

spartaxoxo · February 7

Bards aren't really lore unfriendly and I think it would make a cool class.

Danikat · February 7

Fun fact: Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind and Oblivion (all the main series games before Skyrim) had character classes, and in all 4 games Bard was one of the options. (I'm not sure about Arena but in Daggerfall, Morrowind and Oblivion classes were basically just a quick way to get a preset combination of skills and attributes rather than choosing your own, but still an option.)

But importantly they're not like DnD bards, they're not out on the battlefield with a lute performing magical songs to control their allies and enemies. They're basically rogues who use magic and/or speechcraft alongside stealth and bladed weapons.

(There are also bards in the sense of people who hang out in taverns performing songs for entertainment, but they're probably an entirely seperate thing...although it wouldn't surprise me if some are spies and Thieves.)

Although I suspect if bards ever get added to ESO as an option they will, like all the classes, be an attempt to hit a middle-ground between the expectations from previous TES games and the generic fantasy stereotype (or Baldur's Gate 3/5e DnD version, because that's currently the best known) so they'll probably find a way to add music into the mix. They'd certainly need something to balance out the fact that this game has no type of speechcraft skill.

phairdon · February 7

Anything added to the game becomes part of lore?

colossalvoids · February 7

We already have them in game, it's called a Warden class.

That's the closest you'd get without just being a spell blade with good speechcraft and mercantile that aren't a thing in ESO gameplay wise (but is as a player skill due to social aspects and player trading).

SeaGtGruff · February 7

Danikat wrote: »

Fun fact: Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind and Oblivion (all the main series games before Skyrim) had character classes, and in all 4 games Bard was one of the options. (I'm not sure about Arena but in Daggerfall, Morrowind and Oblivion classes were basically just a quick way to get a preset combination of skills and attributes rather than choosing your own, but still an option.)

But importantly they're not like DnD bards, they're not out on the battlefield with a lute performing magical songs to control their allies and enemies. They're basically rogues who use magic and/or speechcraft alongside stealth and bladed weapons.

(There are also bards in the sense of people who hang out in taverns performing songs for entertainment, but they're probably an entirely seperate thing...although it wouldn't surprise me if some are spies and Thieves.)

Although I suspect if bards ever get added to ESO as an option they will, like all the classes, be an attempt to hit a middle-ground between the expectations from previous TES games and the generic fantasy stereotype (or Baldur's Gate 3/5e DnD version, because that's currently the best known) so they'll probably find a way to add music into the mix. They'd certainly need something to balance out the fact that this game has no type of speechcraft skill.

While we're on the topic of fun facts:

Arena doesn't let you create custom classes, so you must choose one of the 18 predefined classes.

Arena categorizes Bard as a subclass of Thief, with a 50% lockpick efficiency.

If you deliberately answer the questionnaire in such a way as to get specific numbers of Thief, Mage, and Warrior responses, then simplify the possible point spreads, Bard is basically 80% Thief and 20% Warrior.

However, the three possible point spreads that result in Bard include one which is 60% Thief, 30% Warrior, and 10% Mage.

Despite being a Thief subclass with only a very small tendency toward Mage, Bard can cast spells, and receives an amount of spell points equal to its Intelligence.

NotaDaedraWorshipper · February 8

Many people care and we should continue to do so, just because something wrong or bad exist it doesn't mean we should invite more happily.

DnD bards as OP and others think of doesn't exist in Elder Scrolls and shouldn't. Bards in Elder Scrolls are either:

Just a normal musician, storyteller or such, it's not something used for combat but an artistic occupation or hobby.
A class name for an sub-type of the thief archtype, which does not use music. It appears in several of the singleplayer games where we could/had to pick a class and the skills it contained varied slightly but mainly they were thiefy characters who used skills such as blade, block speechcraft, mercandile, and illusion. Very dashing scoundrel types who used speech and illusion mixed with the usual thief/rogue fighting to get what they wanted.
Not stringing a lute and causing a lightning strike or healing someone like DnD.

Elder Scrolls have tonal magic, but it's a very unknown type of magic which mostly the dwemer knew about and that still doesn't work like dnd bards.

This game doesn't need more badly implemented classes with weird themes that isn't accurate to the setting. Looking at you necromancer who looks nothing like an Elder Scrolls necromancer and instead is some cartoony Halloween spoopy themed thing.

Well done skillines for all existing classes is nicer. Like getting an Illusion skilline, also adding playing music better. Not for a class and not for combat at all, but for fun, like let us sync up playing various instruments instead of playing a cacophon of loud noise

zaria · February 8

tomofhyrule wrote: »

The Elder Scrolls series does have Bards, but they're not really the D&D-style Bards that everyone thinks of when someone mentions "Bards." Being a bard in TES means... you play an instrument and make people happy when they're drinking at the tavern. And that's about it.

Now the Nords have Skalds, which are Bards who also go out and fight, so the closest equivalent to something D&D-related would be a Bard/Fighter multiclass. Previous games in the series that also had classes (Morrowind, Oblivion, etc) also had Bards, but in those cases a Bard was more like the Bards you see in the Dragon Age series, where they're a lot closer along the Rogue-y lines with stealth skills and illusion magic to go along with their speechcraft.

So in short: no TES series doesn't have full D&D Bards. But it does have D&D Multiclassed Bards with Rogues or Fighters.

Now, another thing that does exist in the TES universe is music-as-magic, which is most often seen with the Dwemer - most of their stuff is based on Tonal Architecture, so there is a whole set of lore (that isn't very well discovered yet, hint hint...) based on that. We see a lot of that in the Gnisis eggmine quest with Remus Demnevanni. That could easily lead into a D&D Bard-esque thing, particularly as part of a class instead of an entire class in itself.

That's also a major issue with a "Bard class" - in ESO, a Class needs to have 3 skill lines and be able to do all three PvE roles. It's easy enough to come up with some skills where a Bard cold radiate a wave to heal/buff allies or damage enemies, but can you pull that into 14 more skills and 3 ultimates?

It'd probably be easier to make the 'Bard' part one of the three Class lines, and then you can use it to support the others. For example, one of the things I want to see so bad is a Dwemer Artificer class, where the 'Tonal Magic' line essentially ends up being the D&D Bard people want. The other two lines could then deal with pet/armor summons and tools/traps to cover the rest of the roles. I do have a mockup here of how I'd work that.

This, had been an fun skill line so the bard collage in Solitude was an missed opportunity.
For the TES bard, think its an rogue class like the nightblade but with an focus on personality

SeaGtGruff · February 8

tomofhyrule wrote: »

That's also a major issue with a "Bard class" - in ESO, a Class needs to have 3 skill lines and be able to do all three PvE roles. It's easy enough to come up with some skills where a Bard cold radiate a wave to heal/buff allies or damage enemies, but can you pull that into 14 more skills and 3 ultimates?

Well, I think technically there are 4 PvE roles, since ESO splits DD into Magicka/Ranged DD and Stamina/Melee DD.

But keeping it at 3 roles for simplicity, maybe the 3 class skill lines could be oriented toward each role-- tank, DD, and healer?

tomofhyrule · February 8

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

That's also a major issue with a "Bard class" - in ESO, a Class needs to have 3 skill lines and be able to do all three PvE roles. It's easy enough to come up with some skills where a Bard cold radiate a wave to heal/buff allies or damage enemies, but can you pull that into 14 more skills and 3 ultimates?

Well, I think technically there are 4 PvE roles, since ESO splits DD into Magicka/Ranged DD and Stamina/Melee DD.

But keeping it at 3 roles for simplicity, maybe the 3 class skill lines could be oriented toward each role-- tank, DD, and healer?

Eh, hybridization is really blurring the lines between Stam and Mag DPS roles. They're nowhere near as distinct as they used to be anymore, and the meta even favors daggers/fire stick for most classes.

The DLC classes all went with the one line per role thing: Warden's got Animal Companions (DPS), Green Balance (Heal), and Winter's Embrace (Tank); Necro's got Grave Lord (DPS), Bone Tyrant (Tank), and Living Death (Heal); and Arc's got Herald of the Tome (DPS), Soldier of Apocrypha (Tank), and Cuurative Runeforms (Heal).

It's the basegame classes that are a little more muddled. Sure, the passives and some skills do lean in one direction or the other, but it's not as defined as the DLC ones.

If a 'D&D-esque Bard' line were part of a class, it'd probably make the most sense for that to be the Heal line of whatever class it is. That leaves the Tank and DPS lines to go from there.

Of course, my dream Artificer thing doesn't really put a hard line between DPS and Tank as much as it delineates based on summons and gadgetry though... but as much fun as Arc was I really trust ZOS to make another class a lot of fun.

...I just want to see another class release in the (very) near future. I've already got a character who's literally champing at the bit to get started.

TaSheen · February 8

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

Well done skillines for all existing classes is nicer. Like getting an Illusion skilline, also adding playing music better. Not for a class and not for combat at all, but for fun, like let us sync up playing various instruments instead of playing a cacophon of loud noise

I'd much rather have classes than a bunch of skill lines you have to figure out where to slot....

tomofhyrule wrote: »

...I just want to see another class release in the (very) near future. I've already got a character who's literally champing at the bit to get started.

Me too.... actually, I have maybe a DOZEN waiting....

SeaGtGruff · February 9

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Eh, hybridization is really blurring the lines between Stam and Mag DPS roles. They're nowhere near as distinct as they used to be anymore, and the meta even favors daggers/fire stick for most classes.

I hear you. That’s why I slashed them as ranged DD and melee DD, which technically could be either Magicka or Stamina. Bows are ranged, but are usually Stamina based (although if memory serves, Arena lumps Archer in with the Mage subclasses).

RoseVex · February 9

i'm still kinda hoping that they'll add a Maormer race