Disappointment is....

Elvenheart · February 3

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Taril wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Every good tank was a new tank starting vet content for the first time at some point.

Yes. And most good tanks prepared for it. They got up their survivability as much as possible. They might have even researched boss mechanics (Which don't differ a massive amount between normal/vet).

Just because someone is new to a difficulty mode doesn't excuse them for being poorly prepared for it.

I don't want to generalize but I see many younger gamers come into the MMORPG genre maybe after watching an anime and expecting it to be all cool and fun without putting any strategic effort.
Many youngsters come from games that don't require literal study before starting them. So, while I always check a video of a Dungeon before even considering stepping in, I get that a lot of players could be strangers to the fact they need to do preparation outside the game to not let down others in game.

Also... I usually check a Dungeon on YouTube the first time I want to do it, but if it happens that I have to run it after an amount of time I can find myself having forgotten everything. But I agree this should probably happen on Normal, which is more forgiving. Going blind in Veteran can ruin fun for everyone if it's not consensual by the entire group, so it's better to avoid it.

No offense intended, but I don’t know anyone who extensively studies ESO before playing. The game is designed as a relaxed, casual experience, with a few raids that see relatively low participation.

Personally, I’ve completed Trifectas, maxed out all my crafting skills, and finished nearly all the overland content, including main and side quests. Aside from PvP, I’ve enjoyed everything ESO has to offer—without needing any in-depth study. In fact, this is one of the most intuitive games I’ve ever played, and I wouldn’t consider myself a rocket scientist.

No offense taken
I don't think I am the only one approaching an MMORPG studying every possible info available online before creating my first character. Something I would not do with any other genre, 'cause it's usually less needed.
If you look at ESO guides they tell you "best race" "best class" "best alliance" "best skills" "best gear" "best gold strat" "best store purchases" and all that stuff that if you know in advance can make your life easier. Going in blind can hold you back a lot. It's not like this with any game...

My point wanted to be that when you go with a random group you don't want to set expectations high because the variety of players is huge - there are daily trifectaers and people who just got in without any knowledge whatsoever of the genre, and between the two the difference is... Two worlds apart.

Wow, I guess I’m lucky I started ESO when it was in beta before all the guides existed and had to figure it all out as I went along while everyone else was doing the same!

Orbital78 · February 3

DigiAngel wrote: »

waiting 45 minutes in the queue for a Vet dungeon, only to find the tank can't survive the first boss Mission not complete.

A 45 min vet queue for dps?! Mine are usually much shorter. That does suck, but not as much as progging last bosses.

SkaiFaith · February 3

Elvenheart wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Taril wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Every good tank was a new tank starting vet content for the first time at some point.

Yes. And most good tanks prepared for it. They got up their survivability as much as possible. They might have even researched boss mechanics (Which don't differ a massive amount between normal/vet).

Just because someone is new to a difficulty mode doesn't excuse them for being poorly prepared for it.

I don't want to generalize but I see many younger gamers come into the MMORPG genre maybe after watching an anime and expecting it to be all cool and fun without putting any strategic effort.
Many youngsters come from games that don't require literal study before starting them. So, while I always check a video of a Dungeon before even considering stepping in, I get that a lot of players could be strangers to the fact they need to do preparation outside the game to not let down others in game.

Also... I usually check a Dungeon on YouTube the first time I want to do it, but if it happens that I have to run it after an amount of time I can find myself having forgotten everything. But I agree this should probably happen on Normal, which is more forgiving. Going blind in Veteran can ruin fun for everyone if it's not consensual by the entire group, so it's better to avoid it.

No offense intended, but I don’t know anyone who extensively studies ESO before playing. The game is designed as a relaxed, casual experience, with a few raids that see relatively low participation.

Personally, I’ve completed Trifectas, maxed out all my crafting skills, and finished nearly all the overland content, including main and side quests. Aside from PvP, I’ve enjoyed everything ESO has to offer—without needing any in-depth study. In fact, this is one of the most intuitive games I’ve ever played, and I wouldn’t consider myself a rocket scientist.

No offense taken
I don't think I am the only one approaching an MMORPG studying every possible info available online before creating my first character. Something I would not do with any other genre, 'cause it's usually less needed.
If you look at ESO guides they tell you "best race" "best class" "best alliance" "best skills" "best gear" "best gold strat" "best store purchases" and all that stuff that if you know in advance can make your life easier. Going in blind can hold you back a lot. It's not like this with any game...

My point wanted to be that when you go with a random group you don't want to set expectations high because the variety of players is huge - there are daily trifectaers and people who just got in without any knowledge whatsoever of the genre, and between the two the difference is... Two worlds apart.

Wow, I guess I’m lucky I started ESO when it was in beta before all the guides existed and had to figure it all out as I went along while everyone else was doing the same!

That's really cool! But funnily enough, even if I have started playing only in January 2017, I was already searching for ESO "guides" back in 2014, prepping for the 2015 console launch - I remember watching every review possible at PC launch... (Fungal Grotto 1 was everywhere and it looked scary, sweet memories)
I know many players don't consume content about the game outside the game... Maybe it's just me XD To be fair yes it helped me but I still struggled very much at the beginning.

Elvenheart · February 3

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Taril wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Every good tank was a new tank starting vet content for the first time at some point.

Yes. And most good tanks prepared for it. They got up their survivability as much as possible. They might have even researched boss mechanics (Which don't differ a massive amount between normal/vet).

Just because someone is new to a difficulty mode doesn't excuse them for being poorly prepared for it.

I don't want to generalize but I see many younger gamers come into the MMORPG genre maybe after watching an anime and expecting it to be all cool and fun without putting any strategic effort.
Many youngsters come from games that don't require literal study before starting them. So, while I always check a video of a Dungeon before even considering stepping in, I get that a lot of players could be strangers to the fact they need to do preparation outside the game to not let down others in game.

Also... I usually check a Dungeon on YouTube the first time I want to do it, but if it happens that I have to run it after an amount of time I can find myself having forgotten everything. But I agree this should probably happen on Normal, which is more forgiving. Going blind in Veteran can ruin fun for everyone if it's not consensual by the entire group, so it's better to avoid it.

No offense intended, but I don’t know anyone who extensively studies ESO before playing. The game is designed as a relaxed, casual experience, with a few raids that see relatively low participation.

Personally, I’ve completed Trifectas, maxed out all my crafting skills, and finished nearly all the overland content, including main and side quests. Aside from PvP, I’ve enjoyed everything ESO has to offer—without needing any in-depth study. In fact, this is one of the most intuitive games I’ve ever played, and I wouldn’t consider myself a rocket scientist.

No offense taken
I don't think I am the only one approaching an MMORPG studying every possible info available online before creating my first character. Something I would not do with any other genre, 'cause it's usually less needed.
If you look at ESO guides they tell you "best race" "best class" "best alliance" "best skills" "best gear" "best gold strat" "best store purchases" and all that stuff that if you know in advance can make your life easier. Going in blind can hold you back a lot. It's not like this with any game...

My point wanted to be that when you go with a random group you don't want to set expectations high because the variety of players is huge - there are daily trifectaers and people who just got in without any knowledge whatsoever of the genre, and between the two the difference is... Two worlds apart.

Wow, I guess I’m lucky I started ESO when it was in beta before all the guides existed and had to figure it all out as I went along while everyone else was doing the same!

That's really cool! But funnily enough, even if I have started playing only in January 2017, I was already searching for ESO "guides" back in 2014, prepping for the 2015 console launch - I remember watching every review possible at PC launch... (Fungal Grotto 1 was everywhere and it looked scary, sweet memories)
I know many players don't consume content about the game outside the game... Maybe it's just me XD To be fair yes it helped me but I still struggled very much at the beginning.

I think it’s true that things have changed over the years how MMO’s are approached. While I may have jumped right in back in beta, now if I decide to give a new game a try I do find myself searching online for information about classes and best starting areas and such just so I’m not going in blind anymore. A lot more so than back then, now even before games are released to the public people are doing websites and guides for different aspects of the games so it’s easier to find info that can help a new player get off to a better start.

KV_Tootn · February 5

AS a tank i must say..... You need to learn to be a tank... I needed nearly 1 year , learning.. Each step i took was with friends.. We made it Each day further... They encouraged me. Tanks dont need yelling, Plz understand that everyone needs to learn somewere. Thats why always if i go as dps i never yell at tank, if he foks up, its all fine, we try again till he can.. Yea it takes time, But the result is awesome. That tank apriciates it so much, and it gives him a push . And i pushed myself over harder content. As tank you need to be chill, dont stress , dont push smash buttons... When you master its it looks easy, but till then, git gud, have time to learn... I love tanking.

Xarc · February 5

It's always the same story, the same problem with the same answer.
If you want to play without waiting and with people who match your expectations, invite friends, join a guild, etc.
You can't complain about randomness.

ajkb78 · February 5

Taril wrote: »

LividSugars wrote: »

I'd rather have somebody queue for a veteran dungeon who wants to try and tank, who may not know the mechanics but has the willingness to learn.

The issue with this is:

1) Not all bad tanks are "Willing to learn". In fact, from my experience, the vast majority of bad tanks do not wish to learn, hence them being bad tanks in the first place. (It's also one of the primary reasons I became a tank main in the first place, because dealing with all the bad tanks who didn't want to learn got frustrating)

2) If someone is unprepared and literally cannot perform their task due to being undergeared and/or without the right skills. They might not have the capacity to learn because their build simply doesn't allow them to actually do anything even if they are learning the mechanics.

3) One has to consider all people involved in the scenario. 1 bad tank (Whether they wish to learn or not) who is literally incapable of performing their tank duties (Either because of skill or gear) is now ruining the experience of 3 other people whom are now stuck in a situation where they cannot progress because the tank is bad and cannot even replace them because finding another tank for a dungeon in progress is abysmal.

This sort of thing gets compounded when you factor in queue times. This bad tank who failed to perform and so the group disbanded... Can queue up and instantly get a new party. While the DPS that waited 40-60 minutes for that group have to wait another 40-60 minutes for a new one, punishing them even though they're the ones that were actually capable of performing the role they queued for.

LividSugars wrote: »

Yes, it's better to be prepared, obviously, but some people don't have the means to be as prepared as the others. Not everyone is privileged to have friends who can teach them.

If they're playing the game, that means they have access to the internet. One does not need friends when there's plenty of information available with a quick google search.

This information includes, how to gear, what skills are good, what all the mechanics of every single encounter in the entire game (Including trash mobs) actually are.

Yes, having friends can help (Or at least a guild) to put together runs where you can learn hands on without disrupting 3 random players if you cannot perform. But it isn't necessary to at least prepare for things.

LividSugars wrote: »

My original point is that you want to be that person that can teach them instead of trashing on them and telling them that they suck and they should quit tanking.

I don't recall the part where anyone suggested telling them they sucked and should quit tanking.

Most likely what occured is the tank couldn't perform and the group disbanded.

Could they have stayed and teach them how to tank? Possibly. If the issue was entirely based on the tanks skill and not rooted in their gear.

Is it everyone's job to teach everyone else how to play the game? No. In fact, many people get upset if you even try to help coach them (Especially DPS for some reason).

If you're a tank main why would you wait 45 minutes to queue into a dungeon with a potentially bad tank?

I'm being snarky but the point is everyone knows you'll get someone terrible in the group from time to time if you queue. Queue as a DPS? Get a fake tank. Queue as a tank? Get weak-ass DDs. Queue as a healer? Get both a fake tank and weak-ass DDs and get blamed when it all goes to ***. Perhaps they're noobs, perhaps they underestimated the difficulty step-up to vet, whatever the reason it just happens. Either you're willing to take the risk or you're not, but there's no point whining about it.

Delimber · February 5

My favourite memory tanking...was getting a DM from one of the DPS that I (as the tank), wasn't doing enough damage lol.

After 2 very unrewarding Vet DLC runs years ago, I tend to not tank or even play Vet DLC's. Mind you, I'll help out a guild mate.

The 1st horror story was trying to beat the Lord Warden on vet...8 hours and we failed...this was back when Vet ICP was the most challenging dungeon.

And a year or so later, Vet Cradle of Shadows...4ish hours, but we won...however, I was the only group member who didn't get a monster helm (they weren't always guaranteed to drop)....that more or less broke me lol.

You probably have a better chance of farming Morning Dew in Cyrodiil, than seeing me tank a pug vet DLC.

fred4 · February 5

DigiAngel wrote: »

waiting 45 minutes in the queue for a Vet dungeon, only to find the tank can't survive the first boss Mission not complete.

DigiAngel wrote: »

Disappointment is also.....waiting 40 minutes in the queue, only to have the healer and the tank immediately leave due to what is most likely not a dungeon they were interested in. Happened just today.

Solution: Be the tank. Aren't you working on that? Or be a solo player. Or be something inbetween.

Last pledge, one of them, was Vaults of Madness, right? I did that on my DD, solo, on hard mode yesterday. You don't have to solo, but knowing that you're able (e.g. you practiced it) means you can carry the group, or half a remaining group, if need be.

I used to build specifically for this. I had a tanky Brawler sorc, but it turns out for the easier base game dungeons even that is overkill. I did it on my light armor magblade. It's going to depend on class. You might want Pale Order, but magblade heals from damage already. I just boosted the skill damage, and thereby healing, by wearing Velothi-Ur and Soulcleaver (and Whorl of Depths). Turns out that was enough for this dungeon on vet hard mode.

If it'a a DLC dungeon, I would be and queue as tank. Not with a friend. Solo queueing tends to be quicker, or let your DD friend do it, cause the finder is broken in mysterious ways. You could still end up in a good group or a bad one, but either way it will be quicker, usually much quicker. Since Arcanist I actually find that players have more damage on average now. That helps. There's also the theory that people who queue for vet DLC are a more capable on average. For one thing, they needed to buy the content or have ESO+, so that means they're probably not noobs.

DigiAngel · February 5

Yea...I have a few tunes that can dual role it...a couple don't...looks like I'll have to go down that path...will at least get me something to spend crystals on.

fred4 · February 5

I want to share an observation about surviving solo on a build that heals from damage. It helps if you have a full rotation, not a super-simple build. If you have lots of DOTs and ground AOEs, those keep the healing rolling in. This goes for Pale Order, Crit Surge, nightblade Siphoning Attacks, and so on.

Seeing as I just did Vaults of Madness, the Harvester CCs you for a long time and, even though it doesn't do a ton of damage, you want the healing to keep going. On the maglade that meant Swallow Soul, but also ongoing damage from Dark Shade, Meteor, Cripple, Whorl of Depths and Unstable Wall to make short work of the boss and keep up the Siphoning healing.

Taril · February 5

ajkb78 wrote: »

If you're a tank main why would you wait 45 minutes to queue into a dungeon with a potentially bad tank?

Just because I'm a tank main, doesn't mean my characters naturally obtain tanking gear and skills for free.

I still have to get stuff. Meanwhile, I've likely leveled as a DPS build because that is the most effective solo build given that going around killing stuff and collecting skill points notably involves a lot of killing stuff solo.

Besides that, I can advocate on behalf other others too. Not everyone is interested in tanking/healing and only want to DPS (I mean, it's the most popular role for a reason).

ajkb78 wrote: »

I'm being snarky but the point is everyone knows you'll get someone terrible in the group from time to time if you queue.

Aye. The reality is that bad players will show up irregardless of role.

However, the expectation, at least for veteran content, should be that people are equipped for the role that they sign up for.

Normals exist for those that don't know what they're doing, where there's much less need for people to perform roles well so there's leeway for mistakes and learning to happen without dooming a run.

averyfarmanb14_ESO · February 5

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

People who send you Blind Guild Invites: Seriously at lest text me asking if I want to join Your Guild...for all I know you just invited me to a guild that practices Cannibalism....or you belong to the Rotary club....or some other unspeakable horror

I'm unsure as to why we don't have a toggle setting for this, in the same way that we have a toggle setting for duels...?

BXR_Lonestar · February 5

DigiAngel wrote: »

waiting 45 minutes in the queue for a Vet dungeon, only to find the tank can't survive the first boss Mission not complete.

Solo que for a vet dungeon? Feels bad man. Feels real bad.

fred4 · February 6

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

DigiAngel wrote: »

waiting 45 minutes in the queue for a Vet dungeon, only to find the tank can't survive the first boss Mission not complete.

Solo que for a vet dungeon? Feels bad man. Feels real bad.

Why? Because it takes a long time to queue?

Also @DigiAngel,

If you play in guilds, do vet trials, maybe vet dungeons, you gain friends that may want to do the same thing, the same dungeon at the time you want to do it. Emphasis on "may". The chances definitely go up or perhaps you're fine with arranging a time and playing by appointment. If you're not, though, if you like to play whenever you happen to log on, then pugging is completely viable.

I find guild mates demanding. The more competent they are, the more demanding they get. They want to do achievements you may not care about, making the run longer or not happen at all, they may want you to change your build, slot certain skills and wear certain sets. This isn't the case with PUGs. PUG demands, when they do arise, are more predictable. Run one of two meta builds as a tank or healer, basically, and anything as a DD.

If you like things tidy, then maybe playing with a guild or a regular group is for you. Personally, I enjoy a certain amount of chaos. It's enjoyable to help by being flexible. By self-healing some, even outside of portals, by bashing stuff maybe the tank should have bashed, by taking the Arcane Knot in (v)LC, by rezzing players of course, by muddling through even when the strategy starts to fail.

Don't think that playing with a guild is necessarily faster than playing with a PUG. Guild runs take time to assemble. Expect to start 5 to 15 minutes after the appointed time. In training runs, the leader will spend time explaining stuff you may already know. High end players also have a habit of wanting to build ultimate and counting stuff in, while they buff up. Does that speed things up? If it serves to burn a boss, before they do a mechanic, sure. Does it usually work out in random or mixed groups? Nope. It just delays you. I like myself a tank who presses on without needless kerfuffle. Heck, I love those.

I like scrappy play. That's what makes the game enjoyable, not being organised. Reacting to stuff, rather than planning everything out. Maybe that's why I started as a PvPer. This ultimately puts a cap on what you can achieve in PvE. The top achievements are achieved by highly organised groups. However non-hard-mode dungeons and trials are entirely puggable. Only for the hardest ones, you're depending on all round competency. I have no qualms bailing out of vDSR, if the first boss goes really badly for example. For everything else, pugging offers it's own unique challenges that are fun to solve. Play all roles, but don't go with the mindset that you'll be a pure tank, or healer, or DD in a dungeon. Adapt to the exact difficulty of the dungeon, if you can. Have some gear and food options you can switch, or play a (slightly) off meta build in the first place. You'll enjoy pugging more than if you play a very defined role. That said, you got to leave taunting to the designated tank alright or play the tank role yourself.