DeadlySerious wrote: »I think the 2 team BG is just not a good design. Plus, the maps are so dang tiny. What's up with that?
DeadlySerious wrote: »I think the 2 team BG is just not a good design. Plus, the maps are so dang tiny. What's up with that?
Two-team instanced PvP works well in many games, so that is not the issue. The issue with ESO BGs is the overall design of each map and the objectives themselves.
Tiny maps encourage fighting instead of running away. Previously one could win a game without hitting a single enemy or getting hit, and lots of stamina was wasted on endless sprinting. It's supposed to be a PvP game not marathon or hide-and-seek!
New 4x4 maps are the best changes.
Thumbless_Bot wrote: »DeadlySerious wrote: »I think the 2 team BG is just not a good design. Plus, the maps are so dang tiny. What's up with that?
Two-team instanced PvP works well in many games, so that is not the issue. The issue with ESO BGs is the overall design of each map and the objectives themselves.
It is an issue. Your logic is like saying leaded gas worked in many cars so it's wasn't an issue. Or crisco worked to fry foods so it wasn't an issue. Or that the feudal system worked so it want an issue. I could go on.
What we had worked better than 2 teams. Zos has gone from u leaded to leaded. From trans fat free oil to crisco. From democracy to a feudal system. It works worse for most, but, technically it works. However, it it is certainly an issue.
Thumbless_Bot wrote: »Cloak still exists as does invis for non nbs. So hide and seek stull exists.
The larger maps are phenomenal, as good as the old maps.
The smaller maps do not encourage combat outside of DM and you didnt need map size to encourage combat in dm to begin with.
For other formats: Teams chase their tails going back and forth from flag to flag avoiding each other.... Baaaaack... and forth... baaaaaaaaaaaack.... and forth... it's become an obstacle course....
People who want combat seek it out. Those who don't, will not... and will actively avoid it. The size of the map doesn't matter.
Thumbless_Bot wrote: »What we had worked better than 2 teams.
Thumbless_Bot wrote: »DeadlySerious wrote: »I think the 2 team BG is just not a good design. Plus, the maps are so dang tiny. What's up with that?
Two-team instanced PvP works well in many games, so that is not the issue. The issue with ESO BGs is the overall design of each map and the objectives themselves.
It is an issue. Your logic is like saying leaded gas worked in many cars so it's wasn't an issue. Or crisco worked to fry foods so it wasn't an issue. Or that the feudal system worked so it want an issue. I could go on.
What we had worked better than 2 teams. Zos has gone from u leaded to leaded. From trans fat free oil to crisco. From democracy to a feudal system. It works worse for most, but, technically it works. However, it it is certainly an issue.
Thanks for demonstrating my point; they went from leaded gas to leaded gas. They used the same designs, so it is still not a good design. That is irrelevant to the 2 teams vs. three-team format.
Thumbless_Bot wrote: »Cloak still exists as does invis for non nbs. So hide and seek stull exists.
The larger maps are phenomenal, as good as the old maps.
The smaller maps do not encourage combat outside of DM and you didnt need map size to encourage combat in dm to begin with.
For other formats: Teams chase their tails going back and forth from flag to flag avoiding each other.... Baaaaack... and forth... baaaaaaaaaaaack.... and forth... it's become an obstacle course....
People who want combat seek it out. Those who don't, will not... and will actively avoid it. The size of the map doesn't matter.
NBs have almost no place to hide and even sorc can hardly disengage now, unlike before.
Less running = more fighting. The size matters a lot because any second spent on running from base to base is just pointless.
Thumbless_Bot wrote: »Running from base to base is all you do now in flag games.
Anyone, sorcs included, can still disengage. Ie, streaking through you then streaking around los.
Nbs can still hide. I don't even play nb and I know ow this.
I do t know ow where these comments on this thread are coming from. Its like people talking who dont even play the game.
Thumbless_Bot wrote: »Running from base to base is all you do now in flag games.
Anyone, sorcs included, can still disengage. Ie, streaking through you then streaking around los.
Nbs can still hide. I don't even play nb and I know ow this.
I do t know ow where these comments on this thread are coming from. Its like people talking who dont even play the game.
2 gap closing or 3 streaking could cover the base distance now. Even running barely depletes any stamina. This makes a lot of difference.
Sorc streak is 15 meters, gap closer is 22 meters and now there are barely any obstacles or height differences in map area they could utilize to cover the 7 meters.
NB shadow costs a lot and they can neither sprint nor use any skill if they want to stay hidden. Like sorcs if they want to disengage they have to use los, which isn't available anymore.
DeadlySerious wrote: »I think the 2 team BG is just not a good design. Plus, the maps are so dang tiny. What's up with that?
Two-team instanced PvP works well in many games, so that is not the issue. The issue with ESO BGs is the overall design of each map and the objectives themselves.
Thumbless_Bot wrote: »You use detect pots or slot magelight and your gap closer so you can burn through your resources. Sorcs can and still do get away. Nbs can and still do cloak and hide. You are saying these smaller maps solve these issues and they do not. They just don't. If anything, they make ranged damage from those same sorcs and nbs even harder to deal with, but that's another subject for another debate.
Cloak exists. It allows nbs to hide. They won't hide forever. They don't need to. They just need to reset. Nothing about these new bgs change that or makes that more difficult.
Thumbless_Bot wrote: »You use detect pots or slot magelight and your gap closer so you can burn through your resources. Sorcs can and still do get away. Nbs can and still do cloak and hide. You are saying these smaller maps solve these issues and they do not. They just don't. If anything, they make ranged damage from those same sorcs and nbs even harder to deal with, but that's another subject for another debate.
Cloak exists. It allows nbs to hide. They won't hide forever. They don't need to. They just need to reset. Nothing about these new bgs change that or makes that more difficult.
I don't use detect pots or magelight, since they'd often reveal themselves after 2 seconds. Hiding doesn't mean disengaging. Without disengaging you could fight them fairly.
In the old maps there were too many ways for them to disengage - hide behind trees, down a stair, streak across lava or mid-air from one platform to another.
Gap closer does not cost any more than their cloaking or streak skill. I don't know why it isn't popular but I use it constantly, both to fight and to evade bad situation by charging distant enemies or jumping between them.
Thumbless_Bot wrote: »Thumbless_Bot wrote: »DeadlySerious wrote: »I think the 2 team BG is just not a good design. Plus, the maps are so dang tiny. What's up with that?
Two-team instanced PvP works well in many games, so that is not the issue. The issue with ESO BGs is the overall design of each map and the objectives themselves.
It is an issue. Your logic is like saying leaded gas worked in many cars so it's wasn't an issue. Or crisco worked to fry foods so it wasn't an issue. Or that the feudal system worked so it want an issue. I could go on.
What we had worked better than 2 teams. Zos has gone from u leaded to leaded. From trans fat free oil to crisco. From democracy to a feudal system. It works worse for most, but, technically it works. However, it it is certainly an issue.
Thanks for demonstrating my point; they went from leaded gas to leaded gas. They used the same designs, so it is still not a good design. That is irrelevant to the 2 teams vs. three-team format.
You said two teams works, so its not an issue. That is wrong. I've demonstrated why by example. Whether you chose to ignore that or not is up to you. Have a nice day.
Thumbless_Bot wrote: »Thumbless_Bot wrote: »DeadlySerious wrote: »I think the 2 team BG is just not a good design. Plus, the maps are so dang tiny. What's up with that?
Two-team instanced PvP works well in many games, so that is not the issue. The issue with ESO BGs is the overall design of each map and the objectives themselves.
It is an issue. Your logic is like saying leaded gas worked in many cars so it's wasn't an issue. Or crisco worked to fry foods so it wasn't an issue. Or that the feudal system worked so it want an issue. I could go on.
What we had worked better than 2 teams. Zos has gone from u leaded to leaded. From trans fat free oil to crisco. From democracy to a feudal system. It works worse for most, but, technically it works. However, it it is certainly an issue.
Thanks for demonstrating my point; they went from leaded gas to leaded gas. They used the same designs, so it is still not a good design. That is irrelevant to the 2 teams vs. three-team format.
You said two teams works, so its not an issue. That is wrong. I've demonstrated why by example. Whether you chose to ignore that or not is up to you. Have a nice day.
and two teams do work and such examples are in most large MMORPGs with their successful instanced PvPs.
But the analogy of leaded and leaded or fat-free to crisco is irrelevant as it is not comparable. It only suggests someone has an opinion that one is better than another. It is not a valid example.
Further, as I pointed out, the real issue with ESO's BGs is the poor design of maps and matches, which have nothing to do with how many teams are there. It does not matter how many teams are there because the designs are the worst instanced PvP I have played outside of P2W. I only go in because some friends want to do it.
Glad some people like the designs but ESO PvP, 3 team or 2 team, is not very popular.
Thumbless_Bot wrote: »Thumbless_Bot wrote: »Thumbless_Bot wrote: »DeadlySerious wrote: »I think the 2 team BG is just not a good design. Plus, the maps are so dang tiny. What's up with that?
Two-team instanced PvP works well in many games, so that is not the issue. The issue with ESO BGs is the overall design of each map and the objectives themselves.
It is an issue. Your logic is like saying leaded gas worked in many cars so it's wasn't an issue. Or crisco worked to fry foods so it wasn't an issue. Or that the feudal system worked so it want an issue. I could go on.
What we had worked better than 2 teams. Zos has gone from u leaded to leaded. From trans fat free oil to crisco. From democracy to a feudal system. It works worse for most, but, technically it works. However, it it is certainly an issue.
Thanks for demonstrating my point; they went from leaded gas to leaded gas. They used the same designs, so it is still not a good design. That is irrelevant to the 2 teams vs. three-team format.
You said two teams works, so its not an issue. That is wrong. I've demonstrated why by example. Whether you chose to ignore that or not is up to you. Have a nice day.
and two teams do work and such examples are in most large MMORPGs with their successful instanced PvPs.
But the analogy of leaded and leaded or fat-free to crisco is irrelevant as it is not comparable. It only suggests someone has an opinion that one is better than another. It is not a valid example.
Further, as I pointed out, the real issue with ESO's BGs is the poor design of maps and matches, which have nothing to do with how many teams are there. It does not matter how many teams are there because the designs are the worst instanced PvP I have played outside of P2W. I only go in because some friends want to do it.
Glad some people like the designs but ESO PvP, 3 team or 2 team, is not very popular.
They work, as i said, but not as well as three teams, which is an issue.
You said the number of teams is not an issue. That is false. You may think one is more of an issue than the other, and that is a personal opinion... to your point, but the number of teams is still an issue...
I am done with the back and forth. Take care.
Thumbless_Bot wrote: »Thumbless_Bot wrote: »DeadlySerious wrote: »I think the 2 team BG is just not a good design. Plus, the maps are so dang tiny. What's up with that?
Two-team instanced PvP works well in many games, so that is not the issue. The issue with ESO BGs is the overall design of each map and the objectives themselves.
It is an issue. Your logic is like saying leaded gas worked in many cars so it's wasn't an issue. Or crisco worked to fry foods so it wasn't an issue. Or that the feudal system worked so it want an issue. I could go on.
What we had worked better than 2 teams. Zos has gone from u leaded to leaded. From trans fat free oil to crisco. From democracy to a feudal system. It works worse for most, but, technically it works. However, it it is certainly an issue.
Thanks for demonstrating my point; they went from leaded gas to leaded gas. They used the same designs, so it is still not a good design. That is irrelevant to the 2 teams vs. three-team format.
You said two teams works, so its not an issue. That is wrong. I've demonstrated why by example. Whether you chose to ignore that or not is up to you. Have a nice day.
and two teams do work and such examples are in most large MMORPGs with their successful instanced PvPs.
But the analogy of leaded and leaded or fat-free to crisco is irrelevant as it is not comparable. It only suggests someone has an opinion that one is better than another. It is not a valid example.
Further, as I pointed out, the real issue with ESO's BGs is the poor design of maps and matches, which have nothing to do with how many teams are there. It does not matter how many teams are there because the designs are the worst instanced PvP I have played outside of P2W. I only go in because some friends want to do it.
Glad some people like the designs but ESO PvP, 3 team or 2 team, is not very popular.
If we wanted 2 team PvP we'd play those other games that offer it.
Thumbless_Bot wrote: »Thumbless_Bot wrote: »DeadlySerious wrote: »I think the 2 team BG is just not a good design. Plus, the maps are so dang tiny. What's up with that?
Two-team instanced PvP works well in many games, so that is not the issue. The issue with ESO BGs is the overall design of each map and the objectives themselves.
It is an issue. Your logic is like saying leaded gas worked in many cars so it's wasn't an issue. Or crisco worked to fry foods so it wasn't an issue. Or that the feudal system worked so it want an issue. I could go on.
What we had worked better than 2 teams. Zos has gone from u leaded to leaded. From trans fat free oil to crisco. From democracy to a feudal system. It works worse for most, but, technically it works. However, it it is certainly an issue.
Thanks for demonstrating my point; they went from leaded gas to leaded gas. They used the same designs, so it is still not a good design. That is irrelevant to the 2 teams vs. three-team format.
You said two teams works, so its not an issue. That is wrong. I've demonstrated why by example. Whether you chose to ignore that or not is up to you. Have a nice day.
and two teams do work and such examples are in most large MMORPGs with their successful instanced PvPs.
But the analogy of leaded and leaded or fat-free to crisco is irrelevant as it is not comparable. It only suggests someone has an opinion that one is better than another. It is not a valid example.
Further, as I pointed out, the real issue with ESO's BGs is the poor design of maps and matches, which have nothing to do with how many teams are there. It does not matter how many teams are there because the designs are the worst instanced PvP I have played outside of P2W. I only go in because some friends want to do it.
Glad some people like the designs but ESO PvP, 3 team or 2 team, is not very popular.
If we wanted 2 team PvP we'd play those other games that offer it.
Thumbless_Bot wrote: »Thumbless_Bot wrote: »DeadlySerious wrote: »I think the 2 team BG is just not a good design. Plus, the maps are so dang tiny. What's up with that?
Two-team instanced PvP works well in many games, so that is not the issue. The issue with ESO BGs is the overall design of each map and the objectives themselves.
It is an issue. Your logic is like saying leaded gas worked in many cars so it's wasn't an issue. Or crisco worked to fry foods so it wasn't an issue. Or that the feudal system worked so it want an issue. I could go on.
What we had worked better than 2 teams. Zos has gone from u leaded to leaded. From trans fat free oil to crisco. From democracy to a feudal system. It works worse for most, but, technically it works. However, it it is certainly an issue.
Thanks for demonstrating my point; they went from leaded gas to leaded gas. They used the same designs, so it is still not a good design. That is irrelevant to the 2 teams vs. three-team format.
You said two teams works, so its not an issue. That is wrong. I've demonstrated why by example. Whether you chose to ignore that or not is up to you. Have a nice day.
and two teams do work and such examples are in most large MMORPGs with their successful instanced PvPs.
But the analogy of leaded and leaded or fat-free to crisco is irrelevant as it is not comparable. It only suggests someone has an opinion that one is better than another. It is not a valid example.
Further, as I pointed out, the real issue with ESO's BGs is the poor design of maps and matches, which have nothing to do with how many teams are there. It does not matter how many teams are there because the designs are the worst instanced PvP I have played outside of P2W. I only go in because some friends want to do it.
Glad some people like the designs but ESO PvP, 3 team or 2 team, is not very popular.
If we wanted 2 team PvP we'd play those other games that offer it.
Thumbless_Bot wrote: »Thumbless_Bot wrote: »DeadlySerious wrote: »I think the 2 team BG is just not a good design. Plus, the maps are so dang tiny. What's up with that?
Two-team instanced PvP works well in many games, so that is not the issue. The issue with ESO BGs is the overall design of each map and the objectives themselves.
It is an issue. Your logic is like saying leaded gas worked in many cars so it's wasn't an issue. Or crisco worked to fry foods so it wasn't an issue. Or that the feudal system worked so it want an issue. I could go on.
What we had worked better than 2 teams. Zos has gone from u leaded to leaded. From trans fat free oil to crisco. From democracy to a feudal system. It works worse for most, but, technically it works. However, it it is certainly an issue.
Thanks for demonstrating my point; they went from leaded gas to leaded gas. They used the same designs, so it is still not a good design. That is irrelevant to the 2 teams vs. three-team format.
You said two teams works, so its not an issue. That is wrong. I've demonstrated why by example. Whether you chose to ignore that or not is up to you. Have a nice day.
and two teams do work and such examples are in most large MMORPGs with their successful instanced PvPs.
But the analogy of leaded and leaded or fat-free to crisco is irrelevant as it is not comparable. It only suggests someone has an opinion that one is better than another. It is not a valid example.
Further, as I pointed out, the real issue with ESO's BGs is the poor design of maps and matches, which have nothing to do with how many teams are there. It does not matter how many teams are there because the designs are the worst instanced PvP I have played outside of P2W. I only go in because some friends want to do it.
Glad some people like the designs but ESO PvP, 3 team or 2 team, is not very popular.
If we wanted 2 team PvP we'd play those other games that offer it.
Many (if not most) people do, this is why the population was down to 20-30 people queueing for the old 3-way battlegrounds towards the end of last patch & you'd see the same names every round.
If you want to participate in 3rd party PvP or running to empty flags and capturing them there is still Cyrodiil for that - they didn't remove that.
In the end, for companies looking to make money and keep their games alive it's about doing what's popular - not what a small vocal minority prefers (lots of examples lately of how that has gone for other games...)
Thumbless_Bot wrote: »Thumbless_Bot wrote: »Thumbless_Bot wrote: »DeadlySerious wrote: »I think the 2 team BG is just not a good design. Plus, the maps are so dang tiny. What's up with that?
Two-team instanced PvP works well in many games, so that is not the issue. The issue with ESO BGs is the overall design of each map and the objectives themselves.
It is an issue. Your logic is like saying leaded gas worked in many cars so it's wasn't an issue. Or crisco worked to fry foods so it wasn't an issue. Or that the feudal system worked so it want an issue. I could go on.
What we had worked better than 2 teams. Zos has gone from u leaded to leaded. From trans fat free oil to crisco. From democracy to a feudal system. It works worse for most, but, technically it works. However, it it is certainly an issue.
Thanks for demonstrating my point; they went from leaded gas to leaded gas. They used the same designs, so it is still not a good design. That is irrelevant to the 2 teams vs. three-team format.
You said two teams works, so its not an issue. That is wrong. I've demonstrated why by example. Whether you chose to ignore that or not is up to you. Have a nice day.
and two teams do work and such examples are in most large MMORPGs with their successful instanced PvPs.
But the analogy of leaded and leaded or fat-free to crisco is irrelevant as it is not comparable. It only suggests someone has an opinion that one is better than another. It is not a valid example.
Further, as I pointed out, the real issue with ESO's BGs is the poor design of maps and matches, which have nothing to do with how many teams are there. It does not matter how many teams are there because the designs are the worst instanced PvP I have played outside of P2W. I only go in because some friends want to do it.
Glad some people like the designs but ESO PvP, 3 team or 2 team, is not very popular.
They work, as i said, but not as well as three teams, which is an issue.
You said the number of teams is not an issue. That is false. You may think one is more of an issue than the other, and that is a personal opinion... to your point, but the number of teams is still an issue...
I am done with the back and forth. Take care.
.Thumbless_Bot wrote: »Thumbless_Bot wrote: »DeadlySerious wrote: »I think the 2 team BG is just not a good design. Plus, the maps are so dang tiny. What's up with that?
Two-team instanced PvP works well in many games, so that is not the issue. The issue with ESO BGs is the overall design of each map and the objectives themselves.
It is an issue. Your logic is like saying leaded gas worked in many cars so it's wasn't an issue. Or crisco worked to fry foods so it wasn't an issue. Or that the feudal system worked so it want an issue. I could go on.
What we had worked better than 2 teams. Zos has gone from u leaded to leaded. From trans fat free oil to crisco. From democracy to a feudal system. It works worse for most, but, technically it works. However, it it is certainly an issue.
Thanks for demonstrating my point; they went from leaded gas to leaded gas. They used the same designs, so it is still not a good design. That is irrelevant to the 2 teams vs. three-team format.
You said two teams works, so its not an issue. That is wrong. I've demonstrated why by example. Whether you chose to ignore that or not is up to you. Have a nice day.
and two teams do work and such examples are in most large MMORPGs with their successful instanced PvPs.
But the analogy of leaded and leaded or fat-free to crisco is irrelevant as it is not comparable. It only suggests someone has an opinion that one is better than another. It is not a valid example.
Further, as I pointed out, the real issue with ESO's BGs is the poor design of maps and matches, which have nothing to do with how many teams are there. It does not matter how many teams are there because the designs are the worst instanced PvP I have played outside of P2W. I only go in because some friends want to do it.
Glad some people like the designs but ESO PvP, 3 team or 2 team, is not very popular.
If we wanted 2 team PvP we'd play those other games that offer it.
Many (if not most) people do, this is why the population was down to 20-30 people queueing for the old 3-way battlegrounds towards the end of last patch & you'd see the same names every round.
If you want to participate in 3rd party PvP or running to empty flags and capturing them there is still Cyrodiil for that - they didn't remove that.
In the end, for companies looking to make money and keep their games alive it's about doing what's popular - not what a small vocal minority prefers (lots of examples lately of how that has gone for other games...)
Go check out the Battleground review vids on YouTube and read the comments. Or the reddit threads. Read the comments. Many (if not most), people are not happy with this change. For some its the loss of the content they've been dedicated to for years, for others its the fact that content they were looking forward to turned out to be bug ridden, poorly designed and implemented. How any marketing team, any business, could ignore the bad press, the bad feeling among their community that this change has generated is beyond me.
You say 2 team PvP is popular but I don't think that's accurate. 2 team PvP is standard. If there were games out there offering 3 or 4 or 6 team formats but everybody preferred two teams that would be one thing but there's not. You say they're popular but in reality they're just all there is so people play them. Maybe if developers offered a greater variety of team options it might be a different story.
And just so we're clear, you say its a small vocal minority and perhaps you're right but that minority is pssd and rightly so. The content we enjoyed, that we paid for, that we kept coming back for was taken from us and we want it back.
I will say this for two team battlegrounds. They absolutely have a place in the ESO PvP landscape. Two team Chaos Ball is good and very well suited to the two team format. Power ups are a fun addition and the larger of the new maps add some fun variety. 4v4 DM is good, quite intense and fast paced if you're looking for a short form game, decided quickly. I think 8v8 is an excellent introduction to people new to PvP in that a lack of experience/contribution to ones team isn't that noticeable when you're one person in eight. It offers new players the opportunity to get better in a low pressure setting. The new formats are a welcome and valuable addition and have, no doubt, broadened the games PvP player participation. We don't want them discontinued in favor of 4v4v4, we want all the content that could be available to be available.
Honestly, instead of arguing the merits of two team vs. three team maybe we should focus on the merits of product availability and whether or not its wise for a business to discontinue the product a small but vocal minority stayed loyal to their business for.
There is a good chance this revamped Relic mode would become far more popular than 4v4v4 DM ever was. A DM without stalemate and no real incentive for kill stealing? Sure looks like it would be the most fun mode of all.Capture the Relic
PROBLEMSSOLUTION
- Standing around guarding a relic is boring.
- Pointlessly parsing a tank who is guarding a relic is boring.
- Having your relic stolen through the wall, or because the grabbing animation didn't play correctly is boring.
Cut through the boredom and jump to the fun part right from the get go. What if a player from each team was randomly selected as the ''relic holder''? The goal of the match would be to kill the other team's relic holder while protecting your own. When the relic holder dies ''the light'' jumps to another player of the team after 30 seconds, the new relic holder. (This player would obviously need to be ejected from spawn after a period of time.) It would, in a way, be similar to the current 8v8 chaosball.
This mode would function like an extremely high level Deathmatch from the olden days, but with training wheels. Imagine a 3 teams DM, but the softest target of every team is being indicated by the relic. In the worst possible scenario, the two stronger teams would be compelled to fight in the spawn of the softer team, but because of the relic's debuff, this fight would never stalemate to the point of not being worth it. They would fight, relic holders would die, jump to other players, and the new holders would die too. It would be impossible to trap the softer team.
.Thumbless_Bot wrote: »Thumbless_Bot wrote: »DeadlySerious wrote: »I think the 2 team BG is just not a good design. Plus, the maps are so dang tiny. What's up with that?
Two-team instanced PvP works well in many games, so that is not the issue. The issue with ESO BGs is the overall design of each map and the objectives themselves.
It is an issue. Your logic is like saying leaded gas worked in many cars so it's wasn't an issue. Or crisco worked to fry foods so it wasn't an issue. Or that the feudal system worked so it want an issue. I could go on.
What we had worked better than 2 teams. Zos has gone from u leaded to leaded. From trans fat free oil to crisco. From democracy to a feudal system. It works worse for most, but, technically it works. However, it it is certainly an issue.
Thanks for demonstrating my point; they went from leaded gas to leaded gas. They used the same designs, so it is still not a good design. That is irrelevant to the 2 teams vs. three-team format.
You said two teams works, so its not an issue. That is wrong. I've demonstrated why by example. Whether you chose to ignore that or not is up to you. Have a nice day.
and two teams do work and such examples are in most large MMORPGs with their successful instanced PvPs.
But the analogy of leaded and leaded or fat-free to crisco is irrelevant as it is not comparable. It only suggests someone has an opinion that one is better than another. It is not a valid example.
Further, as I pointed out, the real issue with ESO's BGs is the poor design of maps and matches, which have nothing to do with how many teams are there. It does not matter how many teams are there because the designs are the worst instanced PvP I have played outside of P2W. I only go in because some friends want to do it.
Glad some people like the designs but ESO PvP, 3 team or 2 team, is not very popular.
If we wanted 2 team PvP we'd play those other games that offer it.
Many (if not most) people do, this is why the population was down to 20-30 people queueing for the old 3-way battlegrounds towards the end of last patch & you'd see the same names every round.
If you want to participate in 3rd party PvP or running to empty flags and capturing them there is still Cyrodiil for that - they didn't remove that.
In the end, for companies looking to make money and keep their games alive it's about doing what's popular - not what a small vocal minority prefers (lots of examples lately of how that has gone for other games...)
Go check out the Battleground review vids on YouTube and read the comments. Or the reddit threads. Read the comments. Many (if not most), people are not happy with this change. For some its the loss of the content they've been dedicated to for years, for others its the fact that content they were looking forward to turned out to be bug ridden, poorly designed and implemented. How any marketing team, any business, could ignore the bad press, the bad feeling among their community that this change has generated is beyond me.
You say 2 team PvP is popular but I don't think that's accurate. 2 team PvP is standard. If there were games out there offering 3 or 4 or 6 team formats but everybody preferred two teams that would be one thing but there's not. You say they're popular but in reality they're just all there is so people play them. Maybe if developers offered a greater variety of team options it might be a different story.
And just so we're clear, you say its a small vocal minority and perhaps you're right but that minority is pssd and rightly so. The content we enjoyed, that we paid for, that we kept coming back for was taken from us and we want it back.
I will say this for two team battlegrounds. They absolutely have a place in the ESO PvP landscape. Two team Chaos Ball is good and very well suited to the two team format. Power ups are a fun addition and the larger of the new maps add some fun variety. 4v4 DM is good, quite intense and fast paced if you're looking for a short form game, decided quickly. I think 8v8 is an excellent introduction to people new to PvP in that a lack of experience/contribution to ones team isn't that noticeable when you're one person in eight. It offers new players the opportunity to get better in a low pressure setting. The new formats are a welcome and valuable addition and have, no doubt, broadened the games PvP player participation. We don't want them discontinued in favor of 4v4v4, we want all the content that could be available to be available.
Honestly, instead of arguing the merits of two team vs. three team maybe we should focus on the merits of product availability and whether or not its wise for a business to discontinue the product a small but vocal minority stayed loyal to their business for.
What "review vids"? Are we talking about some 200 subscriber youtubers with clickbait titles on each video? You do realize you're talking to someone who has more audience than all of these people combined? Or reddits where you get banned if you're not part of the hive mind?
There is another content creator with a good size of following who did poll his audience for what the best BG mode was... here are the results:
You might be experiencing what is known as "confirmation bias" here.
There aren't many games offering 3-way PvP in what is supposed to be a competitive format, because that is inherently uncompetitive when you can have two teams focusing the third. I.e. who wins doesn't come down to who plays the best, it comes down to player behaviour - either sheer RNG of where the focus goes or worse: who is liked/disliked.
3-way PvP works fine in environment where the fairness of numbers is never expected in the first place, i.e. open world/Cyrodiil - but not in arena/battleground format. If it did, I'm sure battlegrounds would've been more popular in the past.
You bring up whether it's wise for a business to discontinue a product... it absolutely is - this happens all the time. You want to make things that are popular and dedicate resources to create things that are well received by a large enough amount of players.
This may not be what some people want to hear, but for a very real example look at all the TV shows & video games where hundreds of millions go into producing them and they completely flop and get cancelled - I don't want BGs to get cancelled, I want them to move in the right direction without distractions or side ventures that turn out to be a waste of time as queues never pop to an unpopular game mode.