New dungeon pack not for sale, 'ESO+ only' for a limited time. (updated again 07/03)

Desiato · January 11

sarahthes wrote: »

doesurmindglow wrote: »

And yet, we have people on the forums arguing that "we can't know" if subs are down.

In a literal sense, sure, but like: we know.

I mean, it follows logically: if population is down, subs are also down.

IMO ZOS for years profited from people who would sub and forget.

However, there is an affordability crisis in many places, so I would bet many sub-based services have been hit hard as people look for efficiencies and cancel things they don't use. I'm afraid to point this out, but I think it's relevant.

So ESO probably used to sustain revenue through dips in activity better than it does now.

ZOS, you're going about this the wrong way. Instead of trying to induce us to spend more through restrictions, improve the value of your offerings. Perhaps consider:

- offer double the Crowns provided with an ESO+ Sub
- allow us to buy more things with seals of endeavor like armory and outfit slots
- IMPROVE the B2P experience by increasing the non-sub bank space; more b2p customers means more microtransactions and potential subs

Give us carrots, not sticks. Make ESO a better value than the competitors.

Adremal · January 11

Most people won't like it, but it's a welcome attempt to return to a subscription model, which is the most sustainable and healthy model for MMOs. Always has been, always will - each and every MMO that strayed from that model suffered tremendously in terms of quality. Keeping things straightforward instead of gatekeeping content behind a variety of methods (which is confusing and causes discord) is the way to go. If it's not broken, don't fix it.

Greystag · January 11

Adremal wrote: »

Most people won't like it, but it's a welcome attempt to return to a subscription model, which is the most sustainable and healthy model for MMOs. Always has been, always will - each and every MMO that strayed from that model suffered tremendously in terms of quality. Keeping things straightforward instead of gatekeeping content behind a variety of methods (which is confusing and causes discord) is the way to go. If it's not broken, don't fix it.

And how is buying DLC directly not straightforward?

Adremal · January 11

Greystag wrote: »

Adremal wrote: »

Most people won't like it, but it's a welcome attempt to return to a subscription model, which is the most sustainable and healthy model for MMOs. Always has been, always will - each and every MMO that strayed from that model suffered tremendously in terms of quality. Keeping things straightforward instead of gatekeeping content behind a variety of methods (which is confusing and causes discord) is the way to go. If it's not broken, don't fix it.

And how is buying DLC directly not straightforward?

Having mini-DLCs is already an aberration which strays from the a streamlined way to run a MMO. Microtransactions should be limited to crates, cosmetics, homes and such.

SeaGtGruff · January 11

licenturion wrote: »

The least ZOS could have done was appending a few words: ' The dungeon DLC will NOT be available for purchase for crowns at launch but will be available separately as DLC purchase on XX/XX/XX' . Not hard and good transparent communication.

They might not have a date established yet that they can tell us, although "at a later time" would have sufficed for now.

I was wondering if they're going to have a "digital collector's edition" with a mount and pet, or other bonus items, as has often (usually? always?) been the case in the past with new DLC releases. I always buy those with my Crowns, even though I already receive access to the content via my ESO Plus subscription, so it will be a disappointment if they don't have something like that this time, even if I have to wait for a while after launch to buy it.

licenturion · January 11

Adremal wrote: »

Most people won't like it, but it's a welcome attempt to return to a subscription model, which is the most sustainable and healthy model for MMOs. Always has been, always will - each and every MMO that strayed from that model suffered tremendously in terms of quality. Keeping things straightforward instead of gatekeeping content behind a variety of methods (which is confusing and causes discord) is the way to go. If it's not broken, don't fix it.

It only works if your audience stays and pays. Lots of players have invested in the B2P model and ESO has flourished by doing that model (after subscription only failed miserably).

Alienating a big part of your consumer base is only a sound strategy if you can recover all those lost sales + earn extra for continued development costs.

I have bought mainly DLC with crowns and I would rather not play new content than being forced into a subscription. There are games enough out there if ZOS no longer wants my DLC money or withholds content for a select few.

Soarora · January 11

Adremal wrote: »

Most people won't like it, but it's a welcome attempt to return to a subscription model, which is the most sustainable and healthy model for MMOs. Always has been, always will - each and every MMO that strayed from that model suffered tremendously in terms of quality. Keeping things straightforward instead of gatekeeping content behind a variety of methods (which is confusing and causes discord) is the way to go. If it's not broken, don't fix it.

If it’s not broken, don’t fix it indeed. The strategy of letting us buy DLCs directly (which as others have pointed out, is more expensive short-term than ESO+) allowed more people to gain and retain access to dungeons. With the general displeasure with ZOS, trying to force people into ESO+ instead of earning the subscriptions back will likely backfire with people quitting entirely instead of buying the subscriptions. Dungeons are a close-knit group activity, meaning that everyone in the group is inclined to purchase new DLCs and log on to play them. If people are not buying ESO+ out of not deeming ZOS worthy of their money, then they’re not going to buy ESO+ now for these dungeons. If they have nothing to play, or their group moves on without them, then they may just stop playing at all. I know people who have gone from playing the game as a game to logging on just for cores.

Northwold · January 11

Soarora wrote: »

Adremal wrote: »

Most people won't like it, but it's a welcome attempt to return to a subscription model, which is the most sustainable and healthy model for MMOs. Always has been, always will - each and every MMO that strayed from that model suffered tremendously in terms of quality. Keeping things straightforward instead of gatekeeping content behind a variety of methods (which is confusing and causes discord) is the way to go. If it's not broken, don't fix it.

If it’s not broken, don’t fix it indeed. The strategy of letting us buy DLCs directly (which as others have pointed out, is more expensive short-term than ESO+) allowed more people to gain and retain access to dungeons. With the general displeasure with ZOS, trying to force people into ESO+ instead of earning the subscriptions back will likely backfire with people quitting entirely instead of buying the subscriptions. Dungeons are a close-knit group activity, meaning that everyone in the group is inclined to purchase new DLCs and log on to play them. If people are not buying ESO+ out of not deeming ZOS worthy of their money, then they’re not going to buy ESO+ now for these dungeons. If they have nothing to play, or their group moves on without them, then they may just stop playing at all. I know people who have gone from playing the game as a game to logging on just for cores.

How do we know it's not broken? The development of new content depends on a reliable income stream. We aren't privy to the numbers. It may not be broken from the player point of view, but that's only half the equation.

ceruulean · January 11

Yeah honestly this is a bad move. The company is punishing Canadians, Mexicans, and South American customers because they happen to live in an area with unfavorable currency conversion. They tend to buy instead of sub for obvious reason, or only sub when they can afford to. Meanwhile I have no doubt Microsoft is employing cheap labor from overseas to cut costs on wages. Lol. If you're going to pay less so your company can profit more, you're supposed to share your profits with your customers instead of nickel and diming them more. This is why people like Costco and hate most other corporate businesses.

Ph1p · January 11

Northwold wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Adremal wrote: »

Most people won't like it, but it's a welcome attempt to return to a subscription model, which is the most sustainable and healthy model for MMOs. Always has been, always will - each and every MMO that strayed from that model suffered tremendously in terms of quality. Keeping things straightforward instead of gatekeeping content behind a variety of methods (which is confusing and causes discord) is the way to go. If it's not broken, don't fix it.

If it’s not broken, don’t fix it indeed. The strategy of letting us buy DLCs directly (which as others have pointed out, is more expensive short-term than ESO+) allowed more people to gain and retain access to dungeons. With the general displeasure with ZOS, trying to force people into ESO+ instead of earning the subscriptions back will likely backfire with people quitting entirely instead of buying the subscriptions. Dungeons are a close-knit group activity, meaning that everyone in the group is inclined to purchase new DLCs and log on to play them. If people are not buying ESO+ out of not deeming ZOS worthy of their money, then they’re not going to buy ESO+ now for these dungeons. If they have nothing to play, or their group moves on without them, then they may just stop playing at all. I know people who have gone from playing the game as a game to logging on just for cores.

How do we know it's not broken? The development of new content depends on a reliable income stream. We aren't privy to the numbers. It may not be broken from the player point of view, but that's only half the equation.

Regarding that other half of the equation: Last year, ZOS revealed that ESO had made almost $2bn in revenue during its lifetime. Matt Firor said at the time: "ESO isn't often talked about as one of the successful live service games. But it is, it very much is on just about every level." That was only 9 months ago. Doesn't look like ESO is broken or lacking a reliable income stream...

Adremal · January 11

licenturion wrote: »

There are games enough out there if ZOS no longer wants my DLC money or withholds content for a select few.

ZOS is well aware of it, hence this marketing test.

Soarora wrote: »

The strategy of letting us buy DLCs directly (which as others have pointed out, is more expensive short-term than ESO+) allowed more people to gain and retain access to dungeons.

You do realize how anomalous the situation is when compared to "stable" MMOs?

licenturion · January 11

Adremal wrote: »

licenturion wrote: »

There are games enough out there if ZOS no longer wants my DLC money or withholds content for a select few.

ZOS is well aware of it, hence this marketing test.

Soarora wrote: »

The strategy of letting us buy DLCs directly (which as others have pointed out, is more expensive short-term than ESO+) allowed more people to gain and retain access to dungeons.

You do realize how anomalous the situation is when compared to "stable" MMOs?

Well they can't take away the 10 year of content we already have if we don't play ball with this subscription nonsense. That was also why I made this thread to poll what the general sentiment about this is.

So my strategy will be: I will play the 'exclusive content' that is not for sale on PTS once for the 'experience' and buy it when it is on sale eventually.

I always wonder though what drives people to come to the defence of those poor billion dollar companies. This only makes sense if you are a shareholder.

Soarora · January 11

Adremal wrote: »

licenturion wrote: »

There are games enough out there if ZOS no longer wants my DLC money or withholds content for a select few.

ZOS is well aware of it, hence this marketing test.

Soarora wrote: »

The strategy of letting us buy DLCs directly (which as others have pointed out, is more expensive short-term than ESO+) allowed more people to gain and retain access to dungeons.

You do realize how anomalous the situation is when compared to "stable" MMOs?

They’re changing their monetization strategy, by telling us in a post not many people are going to read, after 10 years, during a time that people do not have good faith in the company, starting with a DLC that impacts a small and injured community (thanks, AWA), while several countries cannot buy eso+ due to regional prices or it straight-up not being available. Does that happen in stable MMOs?

Tommy_The_Gun · January 11

Adremal wrote: »

Most people won't like it, but it's a welcome attempt to return to a subscription model, which is the most sustainable and healthy model for MMOs. Always has been, always will - each and every MMO that strayed from that model suffered tremendously in terms of quality. Keeping things straightforward instead of gatekeeping content behind a variety of methods (which is confusing and causes discord) is the way to go. If it's not broken, don't fix it.

This game would have been dead around 2015 if it did not moved to Buy2Play model, just saying.

Arguing that sub is necessary to "keep the lights on" & to keep servers up may have worked in 2004 when WoW was new, but right now, past 2014 this argument no longer does have any power really... especially when ESO is known to have really bad server performance and even in sub-only mmos quality of content goes down too while sub price goes up.

Of course, every single company would want us to believe that "subscription" (aka rental) is the best way to "own" things (including farming equipment) and use things cuz they want people to own nothing while endlessly keep paying for everything.

CalamityCat · January 12

Northwold wrote: »

Honestly, I was concerned about a season pass being needed ON TOP OF ESO plus so I'm actually rather surprised.

If things are switching to ESO plus for everything new (and that's a big if), well, at current prices that looks cheaper than buying things with crowns, albeit that for continuing play over long periods it may work out more expensive. As for players paying with crowns they didn't pay for, well, from a business perspective I'm not sure to what extent it's reasonable to expect ZOS to take such players into account when financing the development of wholly new content.

I think it'll take at least six months to see how much we're going to be paying for all the different changes, as they are added into the game. So yes, for now it doesn't look bad and I hope it stays reasonable.

As for people not paying for crowns - even if you trade with gold, someone has to pay money for them. You're effectively paying for them with your gaming time instead of cash. It means ZOS get money when otherwise the player might say "no, I'm skint this month so I'll have to skip that purchase entirely."

When I started in ESO I had no intention of subscribing, buying expansions, crowns or anything like that. I was just a former Morrowind player who saw the game on sale and gave it a try. To some, I'd not be worth listening to because I wasn't always subscribed on multiple accounts simultaneously. Yet I've gone on to subscribe, bought every expansion since and unless ZOS screw up, I'm going to continue spending money in ESO. So it would be nice if ZOS want to keep me as a customer. I'm not the sort of cat that scratches the furniture and bites visitors.

Winthryth · January 12

For the past three years, I have been in a weekly 4 man dungeon group clearing trifectas and believe it to be some of the most fun MMO content out there. However I don''t have a subscription to ESO+ and have always just bought the DLC via crowns so I have it unlocked permanently. This change will require me to drop my dungeon group because they won't want to wait until it is available outside ESO+ to clear the new content . I really hope ZSO will reconsider.

FeedbackOnly · January 12

Soarora wrote: »

I was wondering if someone was going to make a thread about this, I considered making one myself. I understand why they would do this, I do, but it feels a bit scummy and makes me sad because the friends I enjoy playing dungeons with absolutely will not get eso+, so even IF I cave and buy eso+, I can’t play GROUP CONTENT with my friends while the hype is still there.

sarahthes wrote: »

One month of ESO+ is cheaper than buying the dungeons outright.

We aren’t playing the dungeon for one month. If the dungeons are easy, then we could get tri in the month, but then we would have to buy it again for motif drop and then again for monster mask, and not be able to help anyone complete the dungeons at any point between those times, let alone if we want the dungeons just because we like them. If anything, having them be more expensive than buying eso+ on launch is more of a reason to let us buy them at launch.

No point without friends

joergino · January 12

TaSheen wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I don't know that anyone is "defending" this. As far as anything I have said about it, it was basically to point out that this might simply be a sort of "test the waters" experiment rather than the beginning of a trend.

And if the playerbase doesn't respond well to it, then surely ZOS will take note of their reactions.

So another key aspect of my own responses to recent news and developments has been "Let's not all freak out about this until we see whether there's actually something to freak out about." A lot of people seem too quick to assume worst-case scenarios and then react accordingly, which doesn't help the situation.

Some of us have been around QUITE long enough to freak out immediately. I actually am beginning to see the end of my ESO days. In general, ZOS doesn't "back off" something that's not actually viable....

Exactly the same here

Thysbe · January 12

Winthryth wrote: »

For the past three years, I have been in a weekly 4 man dungeon group clearing trifectas and believe it to be some of the most fun MMO content out there. However I don''t have a subscription to ESO+ and have always just bought the DLC via crowns so I have it unlocked permanently. This change will require me to drop my dungeon group because they won't want to wait until it is available outside ESO+ to clear the new content . I really hope ZSO will reconsider.

same here - I will get one month ESO+ (do that every now and then) for the intial runs and achievements - I just hope they will release the dungeon for crowns in the following year - that would be fine - though I still pay the ESO+ with a very bitter aftertaste

we got only 4 trifectas left - if I would then need a 125 EUR a year sub to play 2 hrs a week with my friends - that will be the end of this group. therefore heavily impacting the other 3 ESO+ players. For motif and lead drops I will outright refuse to buy it anyways.

The same will probabaly follow for trials too - if there are any new ones - and this will impact not only 3 but 11 other players. This will be a severe blow to the group content player base. In the trial case its already now really hard to fill a vet+ raid with able and motivated players.

Silaf · January 12

Zos long time ago promised they would support both subscription and buy to play models.
People invested in the game beliving in it.

SeaGtGruff · January 12

TaSheen wrote: »

Some of us have been around QUITE long enough to freak out immediately.

Except whatever someone is freaking out about can turn out to be different than what they'd thought.

Case in point, you read the end-of-year letter and got upset that there aren't going to be any more zones after the stuff they've already been working on has been released.

Then other people gave their alternate understanding of what the letter said-- that new zones will continue to be released, just not according to rigid schedules as before-- and highlighted passages from the letter to back up their conclusions.

And the thing is, we don't know exactly what it's going to be like yet, so we must be patient and wait to see.

And I don't think it helps if someone starts a "freak out" thread that's based on a lot of assumptions, and then the community starts polarizing along lines of those who share the same assumptions versus those who share different assumptions-- and for all we know, none of those assumptions are even accurate.

Getting back to the specific topic of this thread, I don't think we have enough solid details yet to know how it's going to work, just a brief statement that the dungeons won't be available to purchase for Crowns at the time of launch.

To me, that seems to imply they'll be available for Crowns later-- but how much later is unknown-- a week? a month? a year?

Will it be like when a new game or expansion launches but some players were granted "early access" to it before it became available to everyone?

Will it be like how PC players get access to new content 2 weeks before console players do?

Will it be like how a new chapter is only available to those who've purchased it for cash, then it becomes available for Crowns a year later?

We don't know yet, and all of the speculation in the world isn't going to give us a clear picture. So I'm saying, let's wait until we have a clearer picture.

CrazyKitty · January 12

This is essentially going back to a subscription to play model, at least when it comes to new content, which I honestly don't see working out very well. And given ZOS' inflexibility in the past when it comes to reverting deleterious changes to their game, this could end up to be quite the train wreck financially I'm afraid.

Yikes!

TaSheen · January 12

I didn't start a "freak out" thread. And yes, I'm in process of cutting my losses - because I did NOT like the change from the year long story, and no matter what the "new thing" sounds like to others, to me it sounds like "not as much fun as 5 years ago".

YMMV.

Greystag · January 12

This is a thread criticising something ZoS has said they'll do. It's right there in the DLC announcement. Treating the discourse as if it's based on "assumptions" and just people "freaking out" only muddies it. The good old "knee jerk reaction" argument.

Even if they are planning to release DLC in the store as usual, just after a delay, there's nothing wrong with players voicing their very valid concerns in advance. It's not like we're grasping at straws here.

fizzylu · January 12

CrazyKitty wrote: »

This is essentially going back to a subscription to play model, at least when it comes to new content, which I honestly don't see working out very well.

Same, and with Zenimax making changes like this I can see how some people think they're intentionally sabotaging the game. I wonder if they just plan to release more overpriced crown store goodies to make up the loss in chapter sales, because I really can't imagine thousands of people who have never subbed suddenly start doing so just because of some dungeons.... I'd say they're more likely to just move to a different game.

Adremal · January 12

licenturion wrote: »

I always wonder though what drives people to come to the defence of those poor billion dollar companies. This only makes sense if you are a shareholder.

Your post and those along the same lines only make sense if you're in a tunnel-vision mode which prevents you to notice how my statements were not at all meant to defend ZOS. I've always maintained that the most successful and stable way to run a MMO is through a subscription model with only cosmetics being available as extras. I'm quoting myself and I'll do so again: "Each and every MMO that strayed from that model suffered tremendously in terms of quality.", much like ESO did. Feel free to sift through my posts to see what I think about the current state of the game, the ridiculous accusation of defending ZOS or being a shareholder will crumble within seconds.

Soarora wrote: »

Does that happen in stable MMOs?

Show me where I claimed ESO to be a stable MMO, or refrain from putting words in my mouth.
@Tommy_The_Gun glad you mentioned WoW. Remember what happened when WoW went from a regular subscription to free-to-play with gold tokens and such? Did anything good come out of it? No? Glad we agree!

Juomuuri · January 12

I have a friend who cannot sub to ESO+ due to regional restrictions. I was planning to buy this DLC for him so we could play the dungeons, then saw that they're not for sale at launch... I can *kinda* get that ZOS wants to get their revenue somewhere now that chapters are gone. This wouldn't be as bad if there was like, 2 weeks of early access with ESO+, then added to crown store. But we don't know how much time it'll take until these become purchaseable. Which is something that they should definitely mention upfront...

Honestly, I was excited at first about the new direction, but if the direction is restricting people who cannot sub for whatever reason, it's not the way to go. At least remove the regional restrictions before doing something like this! What's gonna happen when zone DLC is locked behind ESO+? I love this game and I wish things to be better, but I don't know at this point. I'm preparing by playing through all the old DLC content... Waiting to see what will happen.

FeedbackOnly · January 12

Silaf wrote: »

Zos long time ago promised they would support both subscription and buy to play models.
People invested in the game beliving in it.

I thought eso was better than this. There's better ways to make money instead of pay to win model

Soarora · January 12

Adremal wrote: »

licenturion wrote: »

I always wonder though what drives people to come to the defence of those poor billion dollar companies. This only makes sense if you are a shareholder.

Your post and those along the same lines only make sense if you're in a tunnel-vision mode which prevents you to notice how my statements were not at all meant to defend ZOS. I've always maintained that the most successful and stable way to run a MMO is through a subscription model with only cosmetics being available as extras. I'm quoting myself and I'll do so again: "Each and every MMO that strayed from that model suffered tremendously in terms of quality.", much like ESO did. Feel free to sift through my posts to see what I think about the current state of the game, the ridiculous accusation of defending ZOS or being a shareholder will crumble within seconds.

Soarora wrote: »

Does that happen in stable MMOs?

Show me where I claimed ESO to be a stable MMO, or refrain from putting words in my mouth.
@Tommy_The_Gun glad you mentioned WoW. Remember what happened when WoW went from a regular subscription to free-to-play with gold tokens and such? Did anything good come out of it? No? Glad we agree!

I wasn't putting words into your mouth, my point is that ESO's problems make a blanket "this is what stable MMOs do" solution not work as well as you were arguing. Its too late to try and push ESO into this model.

Vonnegut2506 · January 12

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

Silaf wrote: »

Zos long time ago promised they would support both subscription and buy to play models.
People invested in the game beliving in it.

I thought eso was better than this. There's better ways to make money instead of pay to win model

Ok, ESO has issues, but how in the world is requiring a subscription to play two dungeon with subpar gear pay to win?