Honestly, I hope the old-zone updates are only ever graphical (Update 45)

Ingel_Riday · January 10

TLDR: Title
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I watched the recent live-stream about Update 45 and it was fine. I think the map change is just going to add extra button clicks to get where I want to go (M for regional map, back up to world map, and now I’ll have to click on another regional map to zoom in to click the wayshrine I want… EVERY SINGLE TIME I want to fast travel) and I would have preferred better filter options instead (Show Player Houses you don’t own on map and place them above actual functional wayshrines in order to incentivize buying them to avoid inconvenience? => OFF).

But hey, whatever. I did want to offer my paltry two cents on the graphical updates to starter zones.

I’ve been playing this game for 8.5 of the past 10 years it has been active, and I’ve always enjoyed that I can “go back home,” as it were. Unlike World of Warcraft, where old zones and cities were often either radically altered or completely destroyed to make players congregate in the new hotness of whatever expansion came out, this game seems fine with me getting nostalgic for Stros M’Kai and heading back to wander. If I want to make an alt to replay the absurd heist quest there… fine. No content is retired. Go forth and tase that poor Conan knock-off for the ledger.

I’m worried about the graphical updates changing the fundamental vibes of these zones (lighting, ambience) or adding unwelcome optimizations (like the Morrowind fog in West Weald that hides pop-up and probably improves performance, but makes the zone one of the least picturesque areas that I have ever visited in a game). But truth be told, I could live with that as long as the core content was still around.

(Good God)

(I found one spot where the fog suddenly disappeared. Probably a glitch, but JEEZ LOUISE. Night and day difference. Looks so much better. You put a lot of work into crafting this zone. Let me see it in more than 40 meter increments!).

Unkind opinion here: a lot of the writing nowadays does not do it for me. Necrom was a rare delight from stem to stern, but the main quest of High Isle was torture (redeemed by the side-quests being all kinds of wonderful crazy) and I literally mute dialogue and turn off subtitles when going through West Weald on alts. “Yes, yes… dowries are evil pay-to-win schemes to skip courtship. Yes, yes… the writers have no idea how dowries actually worked, or they did but the dozen committees editing their work didn’t. Doesn’t matter. MUTE… Who could the bad guy be in this group of vintners? Hm… is there an old white guy in the group. Ah, there he is! I got it! Mystery solved, again. You're welcome. I take cash or card... Oh yes, Imperial soldier, complain about the Bosmer invasion but then make sure to tell me that you support immigration and value diversity, which is the core strength of the Empire. Wouldn't want to think you're not 'one of the good ones.' Where's that mute button, again? Ah, MUCH BETTER.” I know the audience that this is being written for, the committees you’re probably using to avoid “punching down,” and the “modern” standards you’re applying… and I’m not part of that intended audience. At all. It does not work for me.

I WAS the intended audience circa 2014 when the base game came out, and that content does work for me. That content keeps me around more than FOMO or increasingly incessant events ever could. I go back to it on alts. I think about losing access to it if I uninstall the game and get genuinely sad. I replay it and love every minute of it. I marvel at what the old team “got away with back in the day.” The famous Temple of Dibella in Gideon/Blackwood circa 2020 is an empty building with a maid sweeping and a random dude in a corner. Can’t risk offending anyone with “objectification and over-sexualization,” after all. 😉 Meanwhile The Ebony Flask in Ebonheart has Bameli the Pure and Amil being pure sleaze, you can catch Remains-Silent getting a table dance at the Windhelm Thieves Guild, and there is an entire S&M dungeon in Coldharbour with some nice risque combat lines from the locals. Lewdness aside, quests often involve questionable morality on all sides, absurd levels of Daedric tomfoolery, and a sense of off-kilter whimsy that, frankly, usually doesn’t survive modern committees and their quotas. Certainly didn't survive in the West Weald, in my humble opinion.

(Fine, she's not from the base game. She's from the Thieves Guild expansion. Close enough!)

It’s great. I have no idea how you managed it under so much crunch and stress. It's a feat of artistic triumph in the midst of hell.

I honestly hope that when it comes to “updating old zones,” the updates stay at graphical. For example, I don’t want to see Glenumbra reduced from 21 locations and associated quests to 10 locations, with 1 of them being Daggerfall itself. To see the bloke trying to escape his wife removed because it might offend female spouses, Darien expunged from the zone in his entirety lest he offend asexual players, Stibbons and Lady Laurent edited because they promote unhealthy emotionally-abusive relationships, and so on. Stripped, cleaned, and polished until the anemic new version reaches a state of blandness so absolute that it couldn’t possibly ruffle a single feather. Like the Bosmer of West Weald, who apparently eat fruit, disdain cannibalism, and lack any of the unique insanity that made the race fun in the first place. :-/ Bleh. All in the name of getting new players who, truth be told, often have very little actual interest in sanitized Western fare.

Also, if you got to the end of this, congrats. Just venting in worry and concern.

edit addition: re-read and fixed two mis-spellings. Not bad, for a lunch break post. Good enough. :-P

Ingel_Riday · January 10

As an addendum, I'm not worried about new stuff so much as old stuff being scrubbed. Getting Sheogorad explorable with some quests, or the city of Dusk added with some quests in Summerset, or some addiitonal jungle in Northern Elsweyr wouldn't be remiss. At worst, I can mute dialogue and turn off subtitles again. That's how I got through half of Saints Row 2022 once it was on sale for less than $10.00.

But I'd hate to go back to Grahtwood, find the whole zone reworked for the "new player experience," and discover that South Point was utterly reworked because it was insensitive to mental illness (Uncle Sheo was wrong then and he's wrong now. We're sorry. We will do better!).

I worry where it all ends. Live service games aren't like Oblivion, where I have my old copy safe on a hard-drive and immutably bizarre.

Attorneyatlawl · January 11

Yeah, I hope the zone changes are art only too. I always liked going back and replaying them on new toons. I don't want anything else with existing quests etc changed. New ones are fine, but don't change the existing ones. I do not want them retrofitted like you describe new zones.

karthrag_inak · January 11

Khajiit would like all the zones to have delve-wb-incursion quest givers added.

kargen27 · January 11

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Yeah, I hope the zone changes are art only too. I always liked going back and replaying them on new toons. I don't want anything else with existing quests etc changed. New ones are fine, but don't change the existing ones. I do not want them retrofitted for the modern audience you describe.

I've thought it would be nice if a few of the NPCs we helped in the past would ask us for help again. No change to the existing quest and the new one would only show if you completed the original. Doesn't need to be a lot and just little fun things. Like they guy who's prize pig you saved could say hey my pigs had piglets and they have gone missing. Could you find them for me.

Another reason to run around the older zones again.

cyclonus11 · January 11

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Khajiit would like all the zones to have delve-wb-incursion quest givers added.

Yes - and also thief & DB quests available in each of the outlaws refuges would be cool.

sans-culottes · January 11

Gonna have to disagree. Not only is it nice that they value diversity, but it’d be swell to see time pass in the old zones. It’s been what, how many years?

Mizunogaki · January 11

I don't see any reason to worry yet. The announcement already talked about how the starting zones will be redesigned: graphics, lighting, props. If the changes are in the same spirit for other old zones, that's great. The main thing is that they don't change them too much. Here's what I expect:
— improved quest design, less running, more involved game experience
— slightly change the points of interest and enemy camps so that it matches the quests.
While you're doing one task, it's important that there's something else that can captivate you in addition. If I can just run for a few minutes from point A to point B, ignoring the environment, it's boring.

Solantris · January 11

Had me in the first half, lost me in the second.

It seems like you’re upset that the game's narrative and perspective is no longer tailored exclusively for you, even though you seemingly belong to the demographic that has been the default focus in almost every sci-fi and fantasy franchise since their inception. It seems to me that when you’re so used to being the primary audience, the introduction of new perspectives might start to feel like exclusion. It is somewhat ironic to me that you can actually recognize the way that that feels, but only when it applies to you.

Regretfully: you are not actually the main character.

Times change, and so do audiences. Games are no longer created for just one demographic—they’re now a shared feast, not a private club. Fantasy appeals to a wide variety of people, and not everyone enjoys being depicted as an object in someone else’s fantasy. Yes, some of the old 'spices' might give way to broader flavors, but the menu has grown bigger. You can pull up a chair, or go find an establishment that still serves what you’re craving. They aren't in short supply.

[snip] So why gatekeep Tamriel? If this broader inclusivity isn’t for you, there’s no shortage of other options. Just go play literally anything else?

Not everyone wants the old world preserved in glass.

[edited for baiting]

TaSheen · January 11

I have no interest at all in any game world(s) outside of TES. If ESO's changes aren't going to make me happy/provide fun in the future, I'll do what I did with WoW and RIFT - quit and never be back. I'm still playing Skyrim and Oblivion alongside ESO; I'll just step them up to full time....

Syldras · January 11

Ingel_Riday wrote: »

Who could the bad guy be in this group of vintners? Hm… is there an old white guy in the group. Ah, there he is! I got it! Mystery solved, again.

Ingel_Riday wrote: »

For example, I don’t want to see Glenumbra reduced from 21 locations and associated quests to 10 locations, with 1 of them being Daggerfall itself. To see the bloke trying to escape his wife removed because it might offend female spouses

I don't see an "old white man" npc as an insult to men. I don't see a "bad wife" npc as an insult to women. I'm not sure whether there might be cultural differences at play, but I don't think of people as members of identity categories, but as individuals, and so an npc in a story is a person to me, no matter if it's a Breton, Bosmer or Redguard, or a fisher, a knight or a scholar, and it doesn't matter either which gender that character has.

I have a slight dislike for tropes because clichés are rarely well-written and therefore rarely interesting. But I don't care if the trope is a sleazy man or a nagging wife. If a character is nothing more than that, it's desinteresting for me (of course, for random side characters, it's okay, such people also do exist in reality after all, but as a more important character, it would be boring).

An aspect I discuss every now and then is the question whether a fantasy world really has to resemble the real world in all aspects, including societal categories and morals. I'd personally prefer something unique with morals of its own, even if they're ugly from our real world perspective. The main reason is that I play and read fantasy because I want to explore a different world with different cultures, and if they weren't more than copies of the real world, there wouldn't be that much to explore or even to learn.

Indeed many newer works seem very tame or even sanitized, because producers don't want to potentially offend anyone (might it be out of real moral stance or because offended people might mean a loss in revenue). I think it's a pity because it very much limits the world that can be built and the stories that can be told, because history often consists of rather unsavoury things, so these would, normally, also show up in a fantasy world; especially if it's a comparatibly non-"civilized" archaic world, which is often the case in fantasy media.

As for the fog in the West Weald: They were going for an "autumn in the mountainside" look, like this:
https://www.bayreuther-tagblatt.de/wp-content/webp-express/webp-images/uploads/2023/10/Ailsbachtal-Nebel_CS.jpg.webp
I've always perceived fog as quite normal for that.

zaria · January 11

Mizunogaki wrote: »

I don't see any reason to worry yet. The announcement already talked about how the starting zones will be redesigned: graphics, lighting, props. If the changes are in the same spirit for other old zones, that's great. The main thing is that they don't change them too much. Here's what I expect:
— improved quest design, less running, more involved game experience
— slightly change the points of interest and enemy camps so that it matches the quests.
While you're doing one task, it's important that there's something else that can captivate you in addition. If I can just run for a few minutes from point A to point B, ignoring the environment, it's boring.

I don't think they redo quests as its lots of work including getting voice actors who cost money for no purpose.
I guess we get some general graphic updates also stuff they can sell.

zaria · January 11

Solantris wrote: »

Had me in the first half, lost me in the second.

It seems like you’re upset that the game's narrative and perspective is no longer tailored exclusively for you, even though you seemingly belong to the demographic that has been the default focus in almost every sci-fi and fantasy franchise since their inception. It seems to me that when you’re so used to being the primary audience, the introduction of new perspectives might start to feel like exclusion. It is somewhat ironic to me that you can actually recognize the way that that feels, but only when it applies to you.

Regretfully: you are not actually the main character.

Times change, and so do audiences. Games are no longer created for just one demographic—they’re now a shared feast, not a private club. Fantasy appeals to a wide variety of people, and not everyone enjoys being depicted as an object in someone else’s fantasy. Yes, some of the old 'spices' might give way to broader flavors, but the menu has grown bigger. You can pull up a chair, or go find an establishment that still serves what you’re craving. They aren't in short supply.

[snip] So why gatekeep Tamriel? If this broader inclusivity isn’t for you, there’s no shortage of other options. Just go play literally anything else?

Not everyone wants the old world preserved in glass.

Noticed why so many modern games fails so hard? Think most has spotted an trend now.

[edited to remove quote]

sans-culottes · January 11

zaria wrote: »

Solantris wrote: »

Had me in the first half, lost me in the second.

It seems like you’re upset that the game's narrative and perspective is no longer tailored exclusively for you, even though you seemingly belong to the demographic that has been the default focus in almost every sci-fi and fantasy franchise since their inception. It seems to me that when you’re so used to being the primary audience, the introduction of new perspectives might start to feel like exclusion. It is somewhat ironic to me that you can actually recognize the way that that feels, but only when it applies to you.

Regretfully: you are not actually the main character.

Times change, and so do audiences. Games are no longer created for just one demographic—they’re now a shared feast, not a private club. Fantasy appeals to a wide variety of people, and not everyone enjoys being depicted as an object in someone else’s fantasy. Yes, some of the old 'spices' might give way to broader flavors, but the menu has grown bigger. You can pull up a chair, or go find an establishment that still serves what you’re craving. They aren't in short supply.

[snip] So why gatekeep Tamriel? If this broader inclusivity isn’t for you, there’s no shortage of other options. Just go play literally anything else?

Not everyone wants the old world preserved in glass.

Noticed why so many modern games fails so hard? Think most has spotted an trend now.

I think we’re getting away from the topic. I’m also not sure what @Zaria is implying. If the suggestion is that diversity has impeded modern game development, then maybe it’d be better to take that to Reddit.

[edited to remove quote]

colossalvoids · January 11

Syldras wrote: »

Ingel_Riday wrote: »

Who could the bad guy be in this group of vintners? Hm… is there an old white guy in the group. Ah, there he is! I got it! Mystery solved, again.

Ingel_Riday wrote: »

For example, I don’t want to see Glenumbra reduced from 21 locations and associated quests to 10 locations, with 1 of them being Daggerfall itself. To see the bloke trying to escape his wife removed because it might offend female spouses

Indeed many newer works seem very tame or even sanitized, because producers don't want to potentially offend anyone (might it be out of real moral stance or because offended people might mean a loss in revenue). I think it's a pity because it very much limits the world that can be built and the stories that can be told, because history often consists of rather unsavoury things, so these would, normally, also show up in a fantasy world; especially if it's a comparatibly non-"civilized" archaic world, which is often the case in fantasy media.

Agree heavily here, the most diverse for me personally was the base game and first dlc's, I mean not some particular forced themes people are attributing the word to now but the diversity of thoughts and perspectives, all flowing naturally without giving a second thought about being forced or sanitized even if portrayed childishly or softly at times. West Weald personally feels the most alien in that sense, especially how annexion of territory by bosmeri is treated and on the other hand things like bear cub's loyal Count aren't landing as lightly and humorous as similar topics before, like it's overdone or a lot sloppier work overall.

Aliyavana · January 12

I disagree. High Rock should have Direnni Ruins and less Ayleid Ruins. Ayleids have 5 other provinces and oblivion they appear in. They should not be more prominent than the Direnni in High Rock.

In addition to Direnni ruins in High Rock, they should update npcs to new motifs, and add the newer furstocks to khenarti’s roost and reaper’s march

OgrimTitan · January 12

Aliyavana wrote: »

I disagree. High Rock should have Direnni Ruins and less Ayleid Ruins. Ayleids have 5 other provinces and oblivion they appear in. They should not be more prominent than the Direnni in High Rock.

In addition to Direnni ruins in High Rock, they should update npcs to new motifs, and add the newer furstocks to khenarti’s roost and reaper’s march

Double that down. Preferrably, no ayleid ruins in High Rock at all.

Also, Narsis in Deshaan shouldn't be Indoril.

Ingel_Riday · January 12

Solantris wrote: »

Had me in the first half, lost me in the second.

It seems like you’re upset that the game's narrative and perspective is no longer tailored exclusively for you, even though you seemingly belong to the demographic that has been the default focus in almost every sci-fi and fantasy franchise since their inception. It seems to me that when you’re so used to being the primary audience, the introduction of new perspectives might start to feel like exclusion. It is somewhat ironic to me that you can actually recognize the way that that feels, but only when it applies to you.

Regretfully: you are not actually the main character.

Times change, and so do audiences. Games are no longer created for just one demographic—they’re now a shared feast, not a private club. Fantasy appeals to a wide variety of people, and not everyone enjoys being depicted as an object in someone else’s fantasy. Yes, some of the old 'spices' might give way to broader flavors, but the menu has grown bigger. You can pull up a chair, or go find an establishment that still serves what you’re craving. They aren't in short supply.

[snip] So why gatekeep Tamriel? If this broader inclusivity isn’t for you, there’s no shortage of other options. Just go play literally anything else?

Not everyone wants the old world preserved in glass.

And not everyone wants a sermon forced down their throat at every moment and at every opportunity. Not everyone wants to be preached at incessantly by tryhard moralists. Not everyone wants an experience clearly crafted by innumerable committees, subject to arbitrary rules and regulations about acceptable content, deeply rooted in 2020s contemporary issues, that makes no effort to hide the proverbial man behind the curtain.

Ex: honestly, the entirety of West Weald. I think I spent most of the whole expansion cringing. I was not sad to hear that annual chapters were ending.

Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim had OODLES of diversity without sloppy writing, pearl clutching, and so on. It never felt forced. I've been playing Kingdoms of Amalur and it's full of wild characters, eclectic stories, and flourishes of creativity. It's genuinely diverse without cringe. I'd be sad if I came back to Amalur years later and its quests had been patched out in favor of 2020s writing conventions. If I booted up Morrowind and got to listen to Dagoth Ur talk about making Vvardenfell great again, building a wall, and making Black Marsh pay for it before twirling his mustache. If all the fantasy racism was sanitized out of the game and all neutral/positive Dunmeri references to slavery expunged, lest someone be offended. If every Dunmer who complained about outsiders had to either be shown to be a total idiot or follow up said complaints with comments about how diversity is our strength, Vvardenfell has plenty of room, and how he or she is "one of the good ones." If the vast number of quests were whittled down to 10 locales (one of them being Vivec City), half of which were "accessible" walking simulators with dialogue that makes me remember Theodore Dreiser. All as milquetoast as possible.

[snip]

And you're right, I can go play something else if these zones change. Just like people have been ditching FF XIV because of the cringe-inducing expansion. Just like how people played other things than Dustborn, Dragon Age: Veilguard, Flintlock: Siege of Dawn, SS: KTJL, Kenzera: Tales of Zau, Unknown 9, Star Wars Outlaws, and so on.

And truth be told, if these zones became as anemic as new ones and adopted the same conventions... I would leave. I'd rather not, but I have limits.

[snip]

Fine, you think what you want. Think what you want as the market clearly course-corrects. As more and more sermons sink into the abyss and more and more companies move away from proselytizing. We'll see how it all goes.

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

Ingel_Riday · January 12

Syldras wrote: »

...

An aspect I discuss every now and then is the question whether a fantasy world really has to resemble the real world in all aspects, including societal categories and morals. I'd personally prefer something unique with morals of its own, even if they're ugly from our real world perspective. The main reason is that I play and read fantasy because I want to explore a different world with different cultures, and if they weren't more than copies of the real world, there wouldn't be that much to explore or even to learn.

Indeed many newer works seem very tame or even sanitized, because producers don't want to potentially offend anyone (might it be out of real moral stance or because offended people might mean a loss in revenue). I think it's a pity because it very much limits the world that can be built and the stories that can be told, because history often consists of rather unsavoury things, so these would, normally, also show up in a fantasy world; especially if it's a comparatibly non-"civilized" archaic world, which is often the case in fantasy media.
...

I think your post is very insightful. I snipped the part I wanted to respond to the most.

I discuss the same thing with friends, too. I'm of the mind that I appreciate alien worlds with their own mores, rules, and concerns. I like that after the slightly rational start of Seyda Neen, TES: Morrowind goes off the rails. Sure, you have general universal themes... but nothing about contemporary late 90s politics. Tamriel is its own actual place, with its own LONG history of conflicts, strife, and madness. It has its own concerns, its own issues, its own failures and triumphs, and its own long-standing grievances. You can get lost in rabbit holes of lore.

Same with Kingdoms of Amalur. After Gorhart village, you spend the first 30 to 40 hours in a fairy forest full of magical Fae folk, enchanted ballads, and chaos. It's about as not "male, pale gaze" as you can get, and it's marvelous. I loved every minute of it, and the story flourishes were great (even if the quest designs were often rudimentary at best).

As opposed to West Weald here, which had more complex quest designs but infinitely clumsier narrative. Narrative that either fell back to the new cliches / tropes of our present era or made poor efforts at addressing current day topics. "Come for the promise of meeting the brash, gruff Colovians... get awkward moralizing about migration, borders, and the right to return as you wonder where the rest of the game is."

Enough real-world rubbish. The Ayleids were slave-mongering, demon-worshipping fiends and their purported heirs have come to put the yoke back on the children of Alessia. Children who, after besting the Ayleids, were pretty darn horrible people and conducted ethnic cleansings of elves with reckless abandon. Are the Bosmeri-Ayleid folk wrong to want their lands back? No, but are the Colovians wrong in wanting to defend their way of life and holdings from a bunch of invaders? No. Would the Daggerfall Covenant want the Aldmeri Dominion to gain West Weald and open a new front / gain more access to central Cyrodiil? No. Would the Aldmeri Dominion step in if the Daggerfall Covenant sent troops to push out the Bosmer and secure West Weald? Sure would.

Look at all that geo-politics, lore, and tension... squandered. Even the goblin quest was sanitized to blandness (they're actually good creatuers and just need our love and cultural understanding. Aw...). And it all ends with another party, again.

And Fine. Whatever. But I'd be moritifed if the geo-political concerns and actual lore in Glenumbra or Rivenspire got scrubbed clean to match the new "modern audience" standard. If the tensions between the different houses of Rivenspire and the political naughtiness of High King Emeric got ditched in favor of 10 locales (one of them being Shornhelm) and committee-based writing that left me either bored or rolling my eyes.

I don't play Elder Scrolls games to be reminded about 21st century America. I live there already. I play them to go to Tamriel. I didn't play Dragon Age because I wanted four different ways to re-affirm a character's gender identity. I played it to go to a dark fantasy where I can literally feed children to demons in exchange for carnal favors (not that I ever did that).

I worry that old rough edges of this game are going to get retroactively smoothed over, like the paintings of women that became bowls of fruit in World of Warcraft. Touching up a painting can quickly lead to another The Ecce ***.

Edit addition: I have no idea why it censored the last word, but I was referring to a Christian fresco of Hey-Zeus... which was "restored and improved" by turning it into a bland, swirly, cartoon face. Apparently the fresco's name upsets the filter. So it goes.

Avoriaa · January 12

Okay, I skimmed all that and the rest of the thread, but bro the base game story sucked, every quest was like

OMG it's the necromancers behind everything?!

and you go through that for like 5 zones, and repeat it across 3 factions.

Now I'm not saying the current writing is good, it's just not as stale. and as for the West Weald and High Isle story being preachy on modern politics, I'm honestly assuming that's simply because the primary characters are human (imperials and bretons) the best stories least steeped in boring irl stuff have always felt like the all the non human races. I loved most of Murkmire, Necrom, Summerset, Vvardenfewll and hell even some of the base game stuff was alright. I just think when the writers look at the humans they start getting really dumb and forget this is a fantasy game.

spartaxoxo · January 12

Ingel_Riday wrote: »

lWho could the bad guy be in this group of vintners? Hm… is there an old white guy in the group. Ah, there he is! I got it! Mystery solved, again. You're welcome. I take cash or card... Oh yes, Imperial soldier, complain about the Bosmer invasion but then make sure to tell me that you support immigration and value diversity, which is the core strength of the Empire. Wouldn't want to think you're not 'one of the good ones.' Where's that mute button, again? Ah, MUCH BETTER.” I know the audience that this is being written for, the committees you’re probably using to avoid “punching down,” and the “modern” standards you’re applying… and I’m not part of that intended audience. At all. It does not work for me.

White/Black isn't an Elder Scrolls concept. But the majority of human races have light skin as the majority. As a result, they are the majority of both the heroes and villains in the game. West Weald is set with an Imperial vs Bosmer conflict so ofc that applies to it too. The majority of the NPCs you'll see will ofc look like that.

LikiLoki · January 12

The developer's screenshots show that they not only change textures, but also add new elements. I understand the concern of many players that the mood atmosphere they are used to may disappear. However, it seems to me that there will be no radical changes.
Speaking of my hopes, I would like to see doors open in closed houses and new quests appear in old locations.

davidtk · January 12

I'm hoping to see a graphical update of all the zones similar to what is now in SWTOR and old furniture will get remastered textures.

sans-culottes · January 12

Ingel_Riday wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

...

An aspect I discuss every now and then is the question whether a fantasy world really has to resemble the real world in all aspects, including societal categories and morals. I'd personally prefer something unique with morals of its own, even if they're ugly from our real world perspective. The main reason is that I play and read fantasy because I want to explore a different world with different cultures, and if they weren't more than copies of the real world, there wouldn't be that much to explore or even to learn.

Indeed many newer works seem very tame or even sanitized, because producers don't want to potentially offend anyone (might it be out of real moral stance or because offended people might mean a loss in revenue). I think it's a pity because it very much limits the world that can be built and the stories that can be told, because history often consists of rather unsavoury things, so these would, normally, also show up in a fantasy world; especially if it's a comparatibly non-"civilized" archaic world, which is often the case in fantasy media.
...

I think your post is very insightful. I snipped the part I wanted to respond to the most.

I discuss the same thing with friends, too. I'm of the mind that I appreciate alien worlds with their own mores, rules, and concerns. I like that after the slightly rational start of Seyda Neen, TES: Morrowind goes off the rails. Sure, you have general universal themes... but nothing about contemporary late 90s politics. Tamriel is its own actual place, with its own LONG history of conflicts, strife, and madness. It has its own concerns, its own issues, its own failures and triumphs, and its own long-standing grievances. You can get lost in rabbit holes of lore.

Same with Kingdoms of Amalur. After Gorhart village, you spend the first 30 to 40 hours in a fairy forest full of magical Fae folk, enchanted ballads, and chaos. It's about as not "male, pale gaze" as you can get, and it's marvelous. I loved every minute of it, and the story flourishes were great (even if the quest designs were often rudimentary at best).

As opposed to West Weald here, which had more complex quest designs but infinitely clumsier narrative. Narrative that either fell back to the new cliches / tropes of our present era or made poor efforts at addressing current day topics. "Come for the promise of meeting the brash, gruff Colovians... get awkward moralizing about migration, borders, and the right to return as you wonder where the rest of the game is."

Enough real-world rubbish. The Ayleids were slave-mongering, demon-worshipping fiends and their purported heirs have come to put the yoke back on the children of Alessia. Children who, after besting the Ayleids, were pretty darn horrible people and conducted ethnic cleansings of elves with reckless abandon. Are the Bosmeri-Ayleid folk wrong to want their lands back? No, but are the Colovians wrong in wanting to defend their way of life and holdings from a bunch of invaders? No. Would the Daggerfall Covenant want the Aldmeri Dominion to gain West Weald and open a new front / gain more access to central Cyrodiil? No. Would the Aldmeri Dominion step in if the Daggerfall Covenant sent troops to push out the Bosmer and secure West Weald? Sure would.

Look at all that geo-politics, lore, and tension... squandered. Even the goblin quest was sanitized to blandness (they're actually good creatuers and just need our love and cultural understanding. Aw...). And it all ends with another party, again.

And Fine. Whatever. But I'd be moritifed if the geo-political concerns and actual lore in Glenumbra or Rivenspire got scrubbed clean to match the new "modern audience" standard. If the tensions between the different houses of Rivenspire and the political naughtiness of High King Emeric got ditched in favor of 10 locales (one of them being Shornhelm) and committee-based writing that left me either bored or rolling my eyes.

I don't play Elder Scrolls games to be reminded about 21st century America. I live there already. I play them to go to Tamriel. I didn't play Dragon Age because I wanted four different ways to re-affirm a character's gender identity. I played it to go to a dark fantasy where I can literally feed children to demons in exchange for carnal favors (not that I ever did that).

I worry that old rough edges of this game are going to get retroactively smoothed over, like the paintings of women that became bowls of fruit in World of Warcraft. Touching up a painting can quickly lead to another The Ecce ***.

Edit addition: I have no idea why it censored the last word, but I was referring to a Christian fresco of Hey-Zeus... which was "restored and improved" by turning it into a bland, swirly, cartoon face. Apparently the fresco's name upsets the filter. So it goes.

Cool.

Syldras · January 12

In my opinion, every kind of story could be told in fantasy fiction, which includes ESO, and they could even comment on topics that are seen as important in the real world right now - if (and that's the big point) they are well-written and seemlessly fit into the lore and societies of the in-game world, don't break the logic of the fictional world and don't mess up the morals, traditions and beliefs of the fictional races as they have been established. To give an over-the-top example for something that would be a bad move: Orcs suddenly proclaiming that fighting is evil because violence is bad. Or all Bosmer giving up the Green Pact and proclaiming that eating too much meat is unhealthy. The story of one young and physically not so fit orc wondering if his society could be different, wouldn't bother me. Or a Bosmer who travelled abroad and tried fruit and began to like it. Individuals questioning their society's traditions exist, so that feels natural. But changing a whole fictional race because one of their traditions or their way of thinking doesn't fit today's ideas of what's correct, that would be a tendency I very much dislike.

Another point is subtlety. As I said, every topic, also real-world topics, could somehow be included by a skilled writer who respects the established game lore. If it fits the fantasy world, no problem at all. What is bad is if even I, as a non-American who is not familiar with American news topics beyond what sometimes comes up in the international part of my country's news, see a quest and it makes me think "Oh, that's a big topic in the USA right now". If it's too obvious, it breaks immersion. Some people might not mind, but I don't want to think of the current topics of a real-world country (no matter which one) while playing ESO. And in my case not even because I was opposed to the topic themselves, I might even discuss them with people at other places at other times, but if I play a TES game, I want to experience Tamriel, not the real world. And most of all it's a pity for all the genuinely Tamrielic stories that don't get told because the space is filled with too much generic or real-world-related content. Even if it's not about serious topics, I prefer to see something genuinely related to the world of TES, to the specifics of TES cultures, their traditions, their way of life, instead of something rather generic. I don't want a soap opera with orcs and elves or something like that, that could, if orcs and elves were exchanged with humans, also take place in San Francisco, Singapore, Melbourne or Amsterdam.

And of course the writing quality matters. In my country, producers often love to include "the current issue" in tv shows. It's usually cheaply produced, superficial, and horribly written - but at least they can show they're up to date, modern and correct. Even if it's an issue that concerns me personally (I could officially count myself belonging to a few "minory groups" if I'd care), I'm not happy about being "included" in that, no, I find it horrible. I probably find it even more horrible than usual because I'm "included" and that badly written nonsense (no matter if written with a good intention) could be related to me by people who don't know any better, and I don't want to be confronted with warped views and weird prejudices picked up from TV shows if approached, let alone that nonsense might even damage my reputation. My stance is clear: If people want to write about it, it should be meaningful and well-written. If they can't manage that, it's better they don't touch the topic at all. Unfortunately, my opinion doesn't matter, because while these people love to claim they're allies and write about us, they rarely care for what we're actually thinking about that. So much for media in my country, and what I hope ESO will not become.

Anyway, as I said, what also concerns me a lot is stories that don't get told because of the fear they might offend someone. It's a worrying tendency, also for artists, that people are increasingly thought of as being incapable of differenciating between the writer of a fictional work and the world the writer describes in that work. Writing about a thing, especially in fiction, does not mean promoting it. Describing injustice and other things that are morally wrong from the real world perspective as being the norm in a fictional society doesn't mean that the writer supports that. It's just a person telling a story (and sometimes the story might even show bad consequences for the morally questionable behaviour, but subtly between the lines and not as an obviously called out moral lesson). That had been absolutely clear when TES3 Morrowind was released about 20 years ago (I don't think anyone back then believed that the writers were approving of all the things that are considered normal in Dunmer society, including slavery and an official assassins guild - it was clear that this was just people telling a fictional story), and I'm actually sad that it doesn't seem to be clear anymore for some people today... I witness the same worrying tendency happening in writing about real history, by the way, where some people now also seem to think that writing about a topic means supporting it, so the historian researching it must a morally questionable person or something.

Anyway, I hope that the zone updates don't change any stories. They may add new ones, continuations of old ones, but I wouldn't want to see the old ones changed.

shadyjane62 · January 12

Another game did a reset on its 4th chapter release. It was awful. They went back and did the original zones and they were bad. Volcanoes where there had been wonderful gardens. The enemy in your homeland, and that was when I left.

I hope that doesn't happen here.

Aliyavana · January 12

OgrimTitan wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

I disagree. High Rock should have Direnni Ruins and less Ayleid Ruins. Ayleids have 5 other provinces and oblivion they appear in. They should not be more prominent than the Direnni in High Rock.

In addition to Direnni ruins in High Rock, they should update npcs to new motifs, and add the newer furstocks to khenarti’s roost and reaper’s march

Double that down. Preferrably, no ayleid ruins in High Rock at all.

Also, Narsis in Deshaan shouldn't be Indoril.

Im ok with Halycon Lake mainly cause the lore around that ayleid ruin is cool. The rest of the ayleid ruins in high rock would be cool if they made into direnni ruins

Tannus15 · January 12

imo the base game zones are the most enjoyable to quest through because they change. doing the quests actually impacts the world and it's cool.

but that approach game the devs multiplayer head aches so they ditched it in favour of the static world that we have in the DLC's.
the DLC zones look a lot better, but you lack impact and agency as a player. likewise the stories are going to have less drama because you won't get an impactful pay off looking over the zone at the end of it all and seeing that yes, you have actually saved the land from a terrible fate.

save it or don't, no real change.

SkaiFaith · January 13

Ingel_Riday wrote: »

TLDR: Title
____________________________________
I watched the recent live-stream about Update 45 and it was fine. I think the map change is just going to add extra button clicks to get where I want to go (M for regional map, back up to world map, and now I’ll have to click on another regional map to zoom in to click the wayshrine I want… EVERY SINGLE TIME I want to fast travel) and I would have preferred better filter options instead (Show Player Houses you don’t own on map and place them above actual functional wayshrines in order to incentivize buying them to avoid inconvenience? => OFF).

But hey, whatever. I did want to offer my paltry two cents on the graphical updates to starter zones.

I’ve been playing this game for 8.5 of the past 10 years it has been active, and I’ve always enjoyed that I can “go back home,” as it were. Unlike World of Warcraft, where old zones and cities were often either radically altered or completely destroyed to make players congregate in the new hotness of whatever expansion came out, this game seems fine with me getting nostalgic for Stros M’Kai and heading back to wander. If I want to make an alt to replay the absurd heist quest there… fine. No content is retired. Go forth and tase that poor Conan knock-off for the ledger.

I’m worried about the graphical updates changing the fundamental vibes of these zones (lighting, ambience) or adding unwelcome optimizations (like the Morrowind fog in West Weald that hides pop-up and probably improves performance, but makes the zone one of the least picturesque areas that I have ever visited in a game). But truth be told, I could live with that as long as the core content was still around.

(Good God)

(I found one spot where the fog suddenly disappeared. Probably a glitch, but JEEZ LOUISE. Night and day difference. Looks so much better. You put a lot of work into crafting this zone. Let me see it in more than 40 meter increments!).

Unkind opinion here: a lot of the writing nowadays does not do it for me. Necrom was a rare delight from stem to stern, but the main quest of High Isle was torture (redeemed by the side-quests being all kinds of wonderful crazy) and I literally mute dialogue and turn off subtitles when going through West Weald on alts. “Yes, yes… dowries are evil pay-to-win schemes to skip courtship. Yes, yes… the writers have no idea how dowries actually worked, or they did but the dozen committees editing their work didn’t. Doesn’t matter. MUTE… Who could the bad guy be in this group of vintners? Hm… is there an old white guy in the group. Ah, there he is! I got it! Mystery solved, again. You're welcome. I take cash or card... Oh yes, Imperial soldier, complain about the Bosmer invasion but then make sure to tell me that you support immigration and value diversity, which is the core strength of the Empire. Wouldn't want to think you're not 'one of the good ones.' Where's that mute button, again? Ah, MUCH BETTER.” I know the audience that this is being written for, the committees you’re probably using to avoid “punching down,” and the “modern” standards you’re applying… and I’m not part of that intended audience. At all. It does not work for me.

I WAS the intended audience circa 2014 when the base game came out, and that content does work for me. That content keeps me around more than FOMO or increasingly incessant events ever could. I go back to it on alts. I think about losing access to it if I uninstall the game and get genuinely sad. I replay it and love every minute of it. I marvel at what the old team “got away with back in the day.” The famous Temple of Dibella in Gideon/Blackwood circa 2020 is an empty building with a maid sweeping and a random dude in a corner. Can’t risk offending anyone with “objectification and over-sexualization,” after all. 😉 Meanwhile The Ebony Flask in Ebonheart has Bameli the Pure and Amil being pure sleaze, you can catch Remains-Silent getting a table dance at the Windhelm Thieves Guild, and there is an entire S&M dungeon in Coldharbour with some nice risque combat lines from the locals. Lewdness aside, quests often involve questionable morality on all sides, absurd levels of Daedric tomfoolery, and a sense of off-kilter whimsy that, frankly, usually doesn’t survive modern committees and their quotas. Certainly didn't survive in the West Weald, in my humble opinion.

(Fine, she's not from the base game. She's from the Thieves Guild expansion. Close enough!)

It’s great. I have no idea how you managed it under so much crunch and stress. It's a feat of artistic triumph in the midst of hell.

I honestly hope that when it comes to “updating old zones,” the updates stay at graphical. For example, I don’t want to see Glenumbra reduced from 21 locations and associated quests to 10 locations, with 1 of them being Daggerfall itself. To see the bloke trying to escape his wife removed because it might offend female spouses, Darien expunged from the zone in his entirety lest he offend asexual players, Stibbons and Lady Laurent edited because they promote unhealthy emotionally-abusive relationships, and so on. Stripped, cleaned, and polished until the anemic new version reaches a state of blandness so absolute that it couldn’t possibly ruffle a single feather. Like the Bosmer of West Weald, who apparently eat fruit, disdain cannibalism, and lack any of the unique insanity that made the race fun in the first place. :-/ Bleh. All in the name of getting new players who, truth be told, often have very little actual interest in sanitized Western fare.

Also, if you got to the end of this, congrats. Just venting in worry and concern.

edit addition: re-read and fixed two mis-spellings. Not bad, for a lunch break post. Good enough. :-P

OP, I see what you did there, I get it, I agree.
Personally I would like to see changes due to the passing of time: Bleackrock Village getting rebuilt after you complete its quest and stuff like that.

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Khajiit would like all the zones to have delve-wb-incursion quest givers added.

HUGE agree

cyclonus11 wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Khajiit would like all the zones to have delve-wb-incursion quest givers added.

Yes - and also thief & DB quests available in each of the outlaws refuges would be cool.

Would also be nice indeed.

Supreme_Atromancer · January 13

Aliyavana wrote: »

Im ok with Halycon Lake mainly cause the lore around that ayleid ruin is cool. The rest of the ayleid ruins in high rock would be cool if they made into direnni ruins

Speaking of Halcyon Lake:

Improved Emperor's Guide to Tamriel wrote:

Evermore is at the easternmost region of High Rock, where the Bjoulsae River tightens to its original cascading streams, and boats no longer navigate its waterways.

Actual Halcyon lake (at the end of the Bjulsae):

This sort of thing is why I'd be OK with some graphical updates.

BetweenMidgets · January 13

I think adding additional quests / follow up quests wouldn't be bad.