It's basically the only way you'll kill a good player.

Note that even an unblockable CC won't CC you, if you have CC immunity. You gain that for 7 seconds after breaking free from a stun, or by drinking a potion, or by using Escapist poisons, the Immovable skill, and so on. High-level duelling revolves around tracking your and your opponents ultimate readiness and your and their CC immunity, as indicated by the swirly lines around their feet. If your ultimate is down and you are not CC immune, you have to keep your health and buffs up. Play defensively unless your opponent is on their last legs. While you're fully buffed and with enough stamina, a single opponent shouldn't be able to kill you via a CC, even if you run a pretty squishy build.

Yes, you need to build for a certain amount of health and mitigation in PvP. How much is up to you. Note in particular that nightblade gankers, powerful though they can be, have no true (e.g. stacked) burst outside of proc sets. They win by the element of surprise. Their stun is generally Incap, an ultimate with a 400ms delay that you may be able to block or dodge roll in time. Their big gun is Merciless Resolve, which uniquely has the same 400ms delay. This means you can break free from Incap and block or dodge Merciless, if you're on the ball or you simply use Slippery CP.

Being tanky is simply easier. It gives you more reaction time to ganks, or in lag, and it may allow you to hold out against multiple opponents. In duelling, however, people are usually squishy and high damage, yet it's still only by incorporating an unblockable CC that you'll kill a good dueller.

Using and dealing with unblockable CCs basically adds another layer of skill to PvP. Whether you agree with that, or not, comes down to whether you value the skill curve or you'd like the game to be simpler. Personally I value it. A simpler game would leave you with less to master, less to aspire to. It would wear thin more quickly in the long run.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

It's basically the only way you'll kill a good player.

Note that even an unblockable CC won't CC you, if you have CC immunity. You gain that for 7 seconds after breaking free from a stun, or by drinking a potion, or by using Escapist poisons, the Immovable skill, and so on. High-level duelling revolves around tracking your and your opponents ultimate readiness and your and their CC immunity, as indicated by the swirly lines around their feet. If your ultimate is down and you are not CC immune, you have to keep your health and buffs up. Play defensively unless your opponent is on their last legs. While you're fully buffed and with enough stamina, a single opponent shouldn't be able to kill you via a CC, even if you run a pretty squishy build.

Yes, you need to build for a certain amount of health and mitigation in PvP. How much is up to you. Note in particular that nightblade gankers, powerful though they can be, have no true (e.g. stacked) burst outside of proc sets. They win by the element of surprise. Their stun is generally Incap, an ultimate with a 400ms delay that you may be able to block or dodge roll in time. Their big gun is Merciless Resolve, which uniquely has the same 400ms delay. This means you can break free from Incap and block or dodge Merciless, if you're on the ball or you simply use Slippery CP.

Being tanky is simply easier. It gives you more reaction time to ganks, or in lag, and it may allow you to hold out against multiple opponents. In duelling, however, people are usually squishy and high damage, yet it's still only by incorporating an unblockable CC that you'll kill a good dueller.

Using and dealing with unblockable CCs basically adds another layer of skill to PvP. Whether you agree with that, or not, comes down to whether you value the skill curve or you'd like the game to be simpler. Personally I value it. A simpler game would leave you with less to master, less to aspire to. It would wear thin more quickly in the long run.

So what I gather is that basically they’ve been added because otherwise a good player would be able to keep their stamina up indefinitely through successful blocking not requiring them to pay the break free cost? Causing indefinite stalemates since no one ever reaches a “fatigue point” where they get stuck in the stunned animation for a long enough duration to be executed?

They haven't been added. They're an original feature of the game. I don't think the templar knockback / stun was always unblockable, but Fossilize, Mass Hysteria, and so on have been unblockable for as long as I can remember.

Sure, running down stamina, by CCing people on cooldown, remains an effective way to duel players to an extent. Only the game was more brutal and decisive in the past. Nowadays many players are extremely tanky or sustainy and will absorb that pressure.

The other issue nowadays is that some classes (warden) are kind of dumb and may constantly CC you with Arctic Blast or their new scribed fear option. That's not how the game was originally played. People wanted more control over when they stunned you, e.g. to stun you precisely during a burst combo. Pulling that off, timing it right while being under pressure yourself, that is / was the skill component.

fred4 wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

It's basically the only way you'll kill a good player.

Note that even an unblockable CC won't CC you, if you have CC immunity. You gain that for 7 seconds after breaking free from a stun, or by drinking a potion, or by using Escapist poisons, the Immovable skill, and so on. High-level duelling revolves around tracking your and your opponents ultimate readiness and your and their CC immunity, as indicated by the swirly lines around their feet. If your ultimate is down and you are not CC immune, you have to keep your health and buffs up. Play defensively unless your opponent is on their last legs. While you're fully buffed and with enough stamina, a single opponent shouldn't be able to kill you via a CC, even if you run a pretty squishy build.

Yes, you need to build for a certain amount of health and mitigation in PvP. How much is up to you. Note in particular that nightblade gankers, powerful though they can be, have no true (e.g. stacked) burst outside of proc sets. They win by the element of surprise. Their stun is generally Incap, an ultimate with a 400ms delay that you may be able to block or dodge roll in time. Their big gun is Merciless Resolve, which uniquely has the same 400ms delay. This means you can break free from Incap and block or dodge Merciless, if you're on the ball or you simply use Slippery CP.

Being tanky is simply easier. It gives you more reaction time to ganks, or in lag, and it may allow you to hold out against multiple opponents. In duelling, however, people are usually squishy and high damage, yet it's still only by incorporating an unblockable CC that you'll kill a good dueller.

Using and dealing with unblockable CCs basically adds another layer of skill to PvP. Whether you agree with that, or not, comes down to whether you value the skill curve or you'd like the game to be simpler. Personally I value it. A simpler game would leave you with less to master, less to aspire to. It would wear thin more quickly in the long run.

So what I gather is that basically they’ve been added because otherwise a good player would be able to keep their stamina up indefinitely through successful blocking not requiring them to pay the break free cost? Causing indefinite stalemates since no one ever reaches a “fatigue point” where they get stuck in the stunned animation for a long enough duration to be executed?

They haven't been been added. They're an original feature of the game. I don't think the templar knockback / stun was always blockable, but Fossilize, Mass Hysteria, and so on have been unblockable for as long as I can remember.

Sure, running down stamina, by CCing people on cooldown, remains an effective way to duel players to an extent. Only the game was more brutal and decisive in the past. Nowadays many players are extremely tanky or sustainy and will absorb that pressure.

The other issue nowadays is that some classes (warden) are kind of dumb and may constantly CC you with Arctic Blast or their new scribed fear option. That's not how the game was originally played. People wanted more control over when they stunned you, e.g. to stun you precisely during a burst combo. Pulling that off, timing it right while being under pressure yourself, that is / was the skill component.

Hang on, wait, I think I’m starting to better understand.

The skillful part of using Unblockable CC isn’t actually using it. (You’re given a clear indicator of when you can/cannot use it). Since there really isn’t any skill associated with something the opponent cannot react to.

But rather It’s setting up the CC immune phases to coincide with perceived setups your opponent is making. The defensive layer. A game where the opponent may or may not take note of, and in turn respect, that immunity phase.

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Without unblockable stuns/crowd controls, etc., block tanks would be invincible in PVP. I'm just saying...

There has to be a way to force players to drop block so you have a window in which you can hit them without them having the benefit of block damage mitigation.

Well, why make it a method that is also great for destroying noobs?

And doesn't that indicate an issue with blocking?

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Without unblockable stuns/crowd controls, etc., block tanks would be invincible in PVP. I'm just saying...

There has to be a way to force players to drop block so you have a window in which you can hit them without them having the benefit of block damage mitigation.

Well, why make it a method that is also great for destroying noobs?

And doesn't that indicate an issue with blocking?

Noobs will be destroyed by almost anything in PVP until they are no longer noobs.

Its not an issue with blocking as much as it is encouraging offense. If you could block everything, every skill, every stun, every attack, the game would be a stalemate. PVP, for better or worse, has to encourage killing.

The problem is, especially with ESO, is once something becomes "unfair" players run to these boards and cry foul. There are a decades worth of threads with people whining about everything from Way of Fire to Elf Bane to Flames of Oblivion to Vigor. Yes, Vigor. "I was killing this player and he healed 'too much.' Unfair!" Once upon a time, werewolves and necromancers were fun to play. Then they became "unfair." Warrior's Fury and 7th Legion Brute was once a viable combination. Unfair. Heck, they could dedicate an entire section to nightblades.

The day they remove unblockable stuns is the day PVP officially dies.

@Avran_Sylt for me, the stun is offense and defense. I know I've used it to give me the time to run away and regroup, and I've also used it as part of a burst combo to beat a player down. Its situational but necessary.

I've thought for a while now that the solution to the 35K+ cheese build is more offense. Counter the increase in deaths with a closer revive point so you get more action. But, as I know you've seen, once players die, the wailing and gnashing of teeth begins.

But I prefer my PVP to be "kill or be killed" instead of "I stayed alive the longest."

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

@Avran_Sylt for me, the stun is offense and defense. I know I've used it to give me the time to run away and regroup, and I've also used it as part of a burst combo to beat a player down. Its situational but necessary.

I've thought for a while now that the solution to the 35K+ cheese build is more offense. Counter the increase in deaths with a closer revive point so you get more action. But, as I know you've seen, once players die, the wailing and gnashing of teeth begins.

But I prefer my PVP to be "kill or be killed" instead of "I stayed alive the longest."

I do not really want to be part of your PvP where "kill or be killed" also includes unavoidable stuns (that are both offensive and defensively focused). That just seems like it'd involve stacking multi-landing damage instances ontop of those unavoidable stuns on repeat.

Time stop, I can see that as being unavoidable, AoE utility that sets-up other players.

But no solo sourced instant stuns, especially not one delayed like the Arcanists.

To each their own. But PVP right now is boring compared to what it was just a few years ago. And it has everything to do with nerfing every viable offensive set or ability that pops up. The downward spiral is removing offense only makes tank builds tankier.

Do I want a PVP world where everyone is a glass cannon? No. But I also don't want to beat another player by boring him into quitting.

For me, a fun PVP world was GTA V until the flying motorcycles of death took over. Prior to that, everyone had the same gear to choose from, so it came down to ability to PVP. Once the Oppressor was introduced, I was done, as any noob with one could just spam rockets.

Basically, the Oppressor is the polar opposite of the cheese tank. Neither are fun and both should be removed. If the devs can figure that out, which starts with ignoring every "Whaaahhhhh, some guy wearing [ENTER SET HERE] killed me. HAVE THE SET REMOVED!!" thread. Until then, its be a tank, be a highly skilled nightblade, or surf the zerg

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

@Avran_Sylt for me, the stun is offense and defense. I know I've used it to give me the time to run away and regroup, and I've also used it as part of a burst combo to beat a player down. Its situational but necessary.

I've thought for a while now that the solution to the 35K+ cheese build is more offense. Counter the increase in deaths with a closer revive point so you get more action. But, as I know you've seen, once players die, the wailing and gnashing of teeth begins.

But I prefer my PVP to be "kill or be killed" instead of "I stayed alive the longest."

I do not really want to be part of your PvP where "kill or be killed" also includes unavoidable stuns (that are both offensive and defensively focused). That just seems like it'd involve stacking multi-landing damage instances ontop of those unavoidable stuns on repeat.

Time stop, I can see that as being unavoidable, AoE utility that sets-up other players.

But no solo sourced instant stuns, especially not one delayed like the Arcanists.

To each their own. But PVP right now is boring compared to what it was just a few years ago. And it has everything to do with nerfing every viable offensive set or ability that pops up. The downward spiral is removing offense only makes tank builds tankier.

Do I want a PVP world where everyone is a glass cannon? No. But I also don't want to beat another player by boring him into quitting.

For me, a fun PVP world was GTA V until the flying motorcycles of death took over. Prior to that, everyone had the same gear to choose from, so it came down to ability to PVP. Once the Oppressor was introduced, I was done, as any noob with one could just spam rockets.

Basically, the Oppressor is the polar opposite of the cheese tank. Neither are fun and both should be removed. If the devs can figure that out, which starts with ignoring every "Whaaahhhhh, some guy wearing [ENTER SET HERE] killed me. HAVE THE SET REMOVED!!" thread. Until then, its be a tank, be a highly skilled nightblade, or surf the zerg

My only concern with your point of view is that you seem to be advocating for one-shot builds from basic skill weaving, against all types of builds (not just undergeared or super-squishy targets, but tanks and "well-rounded" builds).

Which (while I would heartily benefit from as a Nightblade.) given the current dynamics of Invisibility, and inherent safety of ranged vs melee (even though they have comparable damage output), would probably make PvP a bit too annoying. (Though if they do ever make it so getting back into the fray in Cyrodiil is much faster, such annoyance could partially be quelled).

Addressing the cheese tank shouldn't be solved by just raising the floor on all damage. But by targeting how such a tank is able to maintain infinite resources.

The irony is the nightblades I remember playing with and against when I started playing ESO would probably wipe the floor with every cheese tank out there. This is not a "back in my day" whine, its more a commentary on the "solution" of nerfing.

When I started, when Vvardenfell and the Warden dropped, you had a pretty solid choice between nightblade, templar, sorcerer, and the brand new warden. All could compete as a DD in PVP without making a crazy niche build. SInce then, every single one of those classes has been nerfed, some to the point of meme status.

The nightblade is still the top dog in PVP for DD. Nightblades have a PVP-centric toolkit which is nice, but they are on top because everything else has been gutted even more. The nightblade toolkit from 7 years ago would be considered cheating by today's standards. And it still dominates.

Any time something rises to the level of being popular in PVP, it gets wrecked. Necros. DKs. Stam sorcs. As someone who loves playing arcanist in PVE I've been THRILLED that the arc is not great in PVP so it has escaped the nerf hammer. Maybe its time to stop nerfing things as a solution and instead boosting them.

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Every CC ability should be able to be mitigated, or none of them should. We have a situation where some are avoidable, but some aren't. This is giving certain classes an ability that others don't have. Using immovable potions? Well, the DK or Sorc will stun you anyway so you just wasted a potion.

That's simply an incorrect statement. Fossilize and Streak are unblockable and undodgeable, but you will not be stunned by them if you have CC immunity. You wouldn't be "wasting an immovability potion" - it will still function against those stuns as normal.

El_Borracho wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

@Avran_Sylt for me, the stun is offense and defense. I know I've used it to give me the time to run away and regroup, and I've also used it as part of a burst combo to beat a player down. Its situational but necessary.

I've thought for a while now that the solution to the 35K+ cheese build is more offense. Counter the increase in deaths with a closer revive point so you get more action. But, as I know you've seen, once players die, the wailing and gnashing of teeth begins.

But I prefer my PVP to be "kill or be killed" instead of "I stayed alive the longest."

I do not really want to be part of your PvP where "kill or be killed" also includes unavoidable stuns (that are both offensive and defensively focused). That just seems like it'd involve stacking multi-landing damage instances ontop of those unavoidable stuns on repeat.

Time stop, I can see that as being unavoidable, AoE utility that sets-up other players.

But no solo sourced instant stuns, especially not one delayed like the Arcanists.

To each their own. But PVP right now is boring compared to what it was just a few years ago. And it has everything to do with nerfing every viable offensive set or ability that pops up. The downward spiral is removing offense only makes tank builds tankier.

Do I want a PVP world where everyone is a glass cannon? No. But I also don't want to beat another player by boring him into quitting.

For me, a fun PVP world was GTA V until the flying motorcycles of death took over. Prior to that, everyone had the same gear to choose from, so it came down to ability to PVP. Once the Oppressor was introduced, I was done, as any noob with one could just spam rockets.

Basically, the Oppressor is the polar opposite of the cheese tank. Neither are fun and both should be removed. If the devs can figure that out, which starts with ignoring every "Whaaahhhhh, some guy wearing [ENTER SET HERE] killed me. HAVE THE SET REMOVED!!" thread. Until then, its be a tank, be a highly skilled nightblade, or surf the zerg

My only concern with your point of view is that you seem to be advocating for one-shot builds from basic skill weaving, against all types of builds (not just undergeared or super-squishy targets, but tanks and "well-rounded" builds).

Which (while I would heartily benefit from as a Nightblade.) given the current dynamics of Invisibility, and inherent safety of ranged vs melee (even though they have comparable damage output), would probably make PvP a bit too annoying. (Though if they do ever make it so getting back into the fray in Cyrodiil is much faster, such annoyance could partially be quelled).

Addressing the cheese tank shouldn't be solved by just raising the floor on all damage. But by targeting how such a tank is able to maintain infinite resources.

The irony is the nightblades I remember playing with and against when I started playing ESO would probably wipe the floor with every cheese tank out there. This is not a "back in my day" whine, its more a commentary on the "solution" of nerfing.

When I started, when Vvardenfell and the Warden dropped, you had a pretty solid choice between nightblade, templar, sorcerer, and the brand new warden. All could compete as a DD in PVP without making a crazy niche build. SInce then, every single one of those classes has been nerfed, some to the point of meme status.

The nightblade is still the top dog in PVP for DD. Nightblades have a PVP-centric toolkit which is nice, but they are on top because everything else has been gutted even more. The nightblade toolkit from 7 years ago would be considered cheating by today's standards. And it still dominates.

Any time something rises to the level of being popular in PVP, it gets wrecked. Necros. DKs. Stam sorcs. As someone who loves playing arcanist in PVE I've been THRILLED that the arc is not great in PVP so it has escaped the nerf hammer. Maybe its time to stop nerfing things as a solution and instead boosting them.

Well, to be frank, Invisibility OP.

Pretty sure that while There are Unblockable/Undodgeable Stuns, it doesn't mean they can't Miss.

NB's a slippery fish, to a degree that they can pump all stats into offense and can still easily slip away if the other player doesn't have some kind of dedicated detection skill to address invisibility.

To a point I think it's possibly problematic.