Intentional and systematic delays

NeoniKa · November 16

There are three players on the European server who in every ToT match make the move and then let the time run down to the last thousandths of a second to pass their turn. These three players always do this systematically. They are always the same, so I assume they are already known by everyone.

I know it's not outside the rules, we have 90 seconds per play, and they always use 89 seconds, so it's in the rule. However, they force us to give up frequently because we already know that the game could last more than an hour, it takes patience and a lot of availability.

We know that if a player lets the time run out completely, then the time is reduced on the next turn, but they also know this, so they always end the turn only in the last few thousandths of a second, to prevent it from happening.

Two of these players usually hold up well in the top 10% and one of them even in the 2%, which means it works. When I have the time and patience to carry this boredom to the end, I always end up winning, so they aren't even good players that justify the position in the ranking they get.

These three players are already on my ignore list, and referenced so I know in advance what I'm counting on, so I can also give up right at the beginning, when I don't have much time.

My question, knowing that what they do is not outside the rules, is what could be done to prevent this type of exploitation of the rules of the game. Could it be possible to penalize these players, not allowing them to participate in the following season, when this systematic attitude is detected?

Have you ever experienced situations like this? How do you react? Do you give up too? What could be the solution?

spartaxoxo · November 17

Report them and explain the situation. I doubt anything will come of it but let zos determine if it's against the rules as exploiting.

aleksandr_ESO · November 17

this is a griefing. report him

SeaGtGruff · November 17

If you're going to report players that do that, I think you should (1) be sure they're intentionally doing what you claim they are, and (2) have video evidence to back up your claim-- lots of it. It's possible that a player might legitimately need to look at the board for a bit before deciding what they want to do, but if they're doing what you say then you should be able to record their behavior in several matches to illustrate that they're repeatedly and consistently just sitting there after making their moves before finally hitting the timer just before it runs out, turn after turn and match after match.

Elrond87 · November 17

wouldnt bother me too much, id just instant end my turn as the lose reward is pretty decent too get gold materials sometimes for losing

Major_Mangle · November 17

The term is called "roping" and is common in other card games as well. The timer in player vs player ToT games should be dynamic and be shorter for the first 5 turns in my opinion. First 5 turns = 30 seconds. Turn 5-10 = 60 seconds. Turn 10+ = 90 seconds.

Main reason I stopped playing against players in ToT, kept running into people who were roping, not gonna waste my time with that. Should 100% be a reportable offense since it goes under the griefing terms (and it´s very very noticeable when someone deliberately does this compared to someone who just takes their time and actually plays the game but might be just slow)

DenverRalphy · November 17

The timer should have an AFK mechanic. After 10 seconds of inactivity the timer should start to speed up then increase a bit every coulple of seconds after that. Returing to normal when activity is detected. And by activity, something more than just bumping the mouse or moving the reticle.

NeoniKa · November 17

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

If you're going to report players that do that, I think you should (1) be sure they're intentionally doing what you claim they are, and (2) have video evidence to back up your claim-- lots of it. It's possible that a player might legitimately need to look at the board for a bit before deciding what they want to do, but if they're doing what you say then you should be able to record their behavior in several matches to illustrate that they're repeatedly and consistently just sitting there after making their moves before finally hitting the timer just before it runs out, turn after turn and match after match.

I know it's intentional, it's pretty obvious and they've been doing it every month, but I don't want to report them, that's not my intention. Because I don't think what they do is against the rules. They just abuse the time allotted to them as a demoralization tool, it's their strategy, I consider it bad behavior and bad sportsmanship, but I don't think it's considerable cheating.

I was more trying to debate how this could be prevented. There are actually many players who delay their turns when they realize they have lost the game, but players who use this strategy over and over again from the first turn to the last are always the same three, only three out of around 600 to 1000 players who participate in competitive matches on the PC EU server.

NeoniKa · November 17

DenverRalphy wrote: »

The timer should have an AFK mechanic. After 10 seconds of inactivity the timer should start to speed up then increase a bit every coulple of seconds after that. Returing to normal when activity is detected. And by activity, something more than just bumping the mouse or moving the reticle.

I'm not sure if it would work. Because I don't think that they are AFK. Usually, they do their moves in 20 seconds, but I know they stay alert, because they never let the timer run out completely, they always pass the turn at the last second to avoid a time penalty in the following turn.

RomanRex · November 17

some people really need the full time. i do this, but not to be malicious. i need the time almost every hand. i am a slow player when it comes to ToT.

NeoniKa · November 17

RomanRex wrote: »

some people really need the full time. i do this, but not to be malicious. i need the time almost every hand. i am a slow player when it comes to ToT.

That's not what I'm talking about at all. There is no problem in being slow when you really need to be slow, I can be often slow too, but you can clearly see when a player has a slower natural tempo without being malicious or when they are playing a more complicated move. It's nothing like a player who systematically complete all moves in a few seconds and then let the timer run without doing anything until the last second. It's completely different.

SeaGtGruff · November 17

NeoniKa wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

If you're going to report players that do that, I think you should (1) be sure they're intentionally doing what you claim they are, and (2) have video evidence to back up your claim-- lots of it. It's possible that a player might legitimately need to look at the board for a bit before deciding what they want to do, but if they're doing what you say then you should be able to record their behavior in several matches to illustrate that they're repeatedly and consistently just sitting there after making their moves before finally hitting the timer just before it runs out, turn after turn and match after match.

I know it's intentional, it's pretty obvious and they've been doing it every month, but I don't want to report them, that's not my intention. Because I don't think what they do is against the rules. They just abuse the time allotted to them as a demoralization tool, it's their strategy, I consider it bad behavior and bad sportsmanship, but I don't think it's considerable cheating.

I was more trying to debate how this could be prevented. There are actually many players who delay their turns when they realize they have lost the game, but players who use this strategy over and over again from the first turn to the last are always the same three, only three out of around 600 to 1000 players who participate in competitive matches on the PC EU server.

You're right, it isn't cheating and is technically within the rules and design of the game, which is why I think anyone thinking of reporting an opponent for doing this should be sure they're doing it intentionally.

However, if it is indeed being done to try to get their opponents to concede the match early, then it is deliberate griefing, which is against the CoC and ToS. And if successfully getting the majority of their opponents to concede is artificially inflating their MMR ranking and resulting in better-tier rewards, then it is also a form of exploitation, which is also against the CoC and ToS.

Ingenon · November 17

Thanks for this post! And to the person who posted about roping. I looked it up, interesting reading about how it is a strategy in online card games, to win by taking the maximum amount of time allowed every turn while hoping that your opponent will run out of play time and/or patience and resign - so you win.

Many years ago, folks playing the game of chess realized this was a problem, and their solution was the Chess clock. Each player gets a fixed amount of time at the start of the game, their clock runs while it is their turn, and when their clock time runs out, they lose.

ZOS could implement this. Maybe if you open a ticket, include video evidence? Who knows, maybe they will fix it.

Personofsecrets · November 18

"We know that if a player lets the time run out completely, then the time is reduced on the next turn, but they also know this, so they always end the turn only in the last few thousandths of a second, to prevent it from happening."

That's only true if players aren't making moves. If a players takes a game action during their turn, then they can run out the full clock without losing any future time.

"Thanks for this post! And to the person who posted about roping. I looked it up, interesting reading about how it is a strategy in online card games, to win by taking the maximum amount of time allowed every turn while hoping that your opponent will run out of play time and/or patience and resign - so you win."

I can't think of any game where people see this type of action as a legitimate strategy rather than anti-social behavior.

"I was more trying to debate how this could be prevented. There are actually many players who delay their turns when they realize they have lost the game, but players who use this strategy over and over again from the first turn to the last are always the same three, only three out of around 600 to 1000 players who participate in competitive matches on the PC EU server."

I'm fairly certain that some players have received disciplinary action for their behavior during TOT. @ZOS_Kevin , what about this kind of griefing?

SilverBride · November 18

I don't know how a player using all the time allotted them for a turn could be actionable. I agree that some players use this strategy to try to get their opponent to concede, and I think it's a shady tactic, but the game gives the player that amount of time and no one can prove that they aren't just considering their move.

SeaGtGruff · November 18

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't know how a player using all the time allotted them for a turn could be actionable. I agree that some players use this strategy to try to get their opponent to concede, and I think it's a shady tactic, but the game gives the player that amount of time and no one can prove that they aren't just considering their move.

And that's why I mentioned having video evidence. If the same players are deliberately roping to try to get a large percentage of their opponents to just concede, then it should be possible to record the matches against those players so there's evidence of how they do this during every turn of every match. This would be a clear attempt to abuse the timer while avoiding the penalty for doing so, as well as being a way to exploit the timer mechanism in hopes of inflating their ToT rankings. The video evidence should show that it's consistent and persistent behavior, rather than merely someone taking a long time to decide what to do.

SilverBride · November 18

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't know how a player using all the time allotted them for a turn could be actionable. I agree that some players use this strategy to try to get their opponent to concede, and I think it's a shady tactic, but the game gives the player that amount of time and no one can prove that they aren't just considering their move.

And that's why I mentioned having video evidence. If the same players are deliberately roping to try to get a large percentage of their opponents to just concede, then it should be possible to record the matches against those players so there's evidence of how they do this during every turn of every match. This would be a clear attempt to abuse the timer while avoiding the penalty for doing so, as well as being a way to exploit the timer mechanism in hopes of inflating their ToT rankings. The video evidence should show that it's consistent and persistent behavior, rather than merely someone taking a long time to decide what to do.

All a video will show is that the player used the time that was given to them, and there is no rule about how they must use that time.

Rather than just allotting a set amount of time, they should start a timer after each card played, maybe 10 seconds or so. And if no card is played after that 10 seconds their turn automatically ends.

Personofsecrets · November 18

No normal players play out their hand and then think about the game state for an additional minutes with no further actions that are available.

Northwold · November 18

I would do as others suggest and report it with evidence. I rarely do competitive matches because I do not have 1.5 hours to waste on people playing like this. Which is a shame because, but for players like this (and the desperate need for an ability to veto decks / a limit on the number of agents), I would rather enjoy ToT against humans.

DinoZavr · November 18

was discussed recently, but in another thread:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8218358/#Comment_8218358

Zeni could implement different tournaments with different time controls (like normal/veteran) like classic/blitz
to make fast-thinkers and slow-thinkers feel comfortable.

i don't report "delayers" as they do not violate the game rules. so it is a valid strategy, though it severely lacks sportsmanship

Personofsecrets · November 18

Although I do believe that players have caught bans for TOT, there was an official post about such, I doubt that players will get a ban for this type behavior. It just so happens to be that the people who grief with the timer are toxic in all kinds of other ways too, including obscene chat, so eventually their commulative actions catch up to them. That's why I would recommend not muting these people and speaking with them freely. Eventually they will say something obnoxious and awful.

If someone is griefing in this type of way, then they should receive an official warning directly to their in game mail. Further griefing should require them to explain their actions through support to unlock their account. These measures would serve to help ensure that players know that griefing isn't acceptable while not having permanent consequences for the corner case that someone really is thinking for 1.5 minutes every single turn for 20 turns.

If there are players who end up being discouraged from these measures, then they probably should be considered acceptible losses. If the EU population is comparable to NA, then we would be talking about 3 out of a 1000 or so players making the experience of potentially 100s of those 1000 miserable. They have done way more damage to the scene than the marginal value that their existence provides.

DinoZavr · November 18

@Personofsecrets before i stopped playing versus humans "delayers" were 25% .. 33% in my personal stats on PC EU
and they were the reason for me to keep away from the game i still consider good. We, players, can ruin everything.

Personofsecrets · November 18

DinoZavr wrote: »

@Personofsecrets before i stopped playing versus humans "delayers" were 25% .. 33% in my personal stats on PC EU
and they were the reason for me to keep away from the game i still consider good. We, players, can ruin everything.

That's obscene. I wonder if they have bots setup to make basic plays and farm rewards via those who quit against them.

AngryPenguin · November 18

It's ToT. What do you expect? It's designed to be slow and time consuming.

ESO_player123 · November 22

I usually avoid staring a new game if I do not have ample time to finish it. I met players that stall intentionally. I know one person on PCNA that occasionally stalls/artificially prolongs the game when winning or starts stalling when the game does not go their way. It is a very poor behavior, so, as much I despise it, I normally do not concede the game to avoid giving such players what they want. Instead, I just get myself a cup of tea, open the forums and start reading (without prolonging my turns of course).

Personofsecrets · November 22

Too bad ZOS doesn't do anything about them despite being sent in game tells where they admit that they intentionally are making others mad.

Personofsecrets · 1:10AM

@ZOS_Kevin , will the team have any action against players who instigate trolling via taking up the turn timer despite having no moves?

In my TOT guild, I'm seeing people experience this anti-social behavior every day. Today, after a player lost against me twice in unranked, they treated me to an hour long game with superfulous Rajhiin button use when we were matched a third time.

What's the plan?

ZOS_Kevin · 1:21AM

We’ll bring this up to the team and see how they would like to handle this.

Personofsecrets · 3:25AM

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

We’ll bring this up to the team and see how they would like to handle this.

Thank you very much. To sum up the information here, there is this following list of ideas that I believe are pertinent to the conversation.

- The players who engage in trolling behavior via timer abuse, especially when no further plays are available, come from a wide range of backgrounds.

- Some players, as @NeoniKa notes above, engage in such behavior while maintaining a high leaderboard position. It's possible that such intentional behavior may be for assisting their leaderboard placement since their opponents may be encouraged to quit.

- Some players, as @ESO_player123 and myself notes, engage in the behavior when they are winning a game. The actual player in question even told me "I'm glad to see you angry and helpless." Therefore, some players may feel like they are exerting power and lording over others via the behavior.

- Relatedly, there are some players who will hurl abuse through the chat as they engage in the behavior. There have been such players who have told me that they are finding information about me online, insulted my nationality, and told me to die. Such anti-social behavior often coinciding with the timer abuse shows how it is being used to lash out at others.

- Some players practice the behavior in a way that they may see as revenge on an opponent who has either won against them in the past or happens to be doing well in the current game.

- Often, the only way that well-meaning players can find some recompense against an antagonistic player is by letting their own turn timer run out. There are some bad actors who will stop the behavior or concede when the behavior is reciprocated. Others don't care and have nothing but time and the following type of game happens.

- Lastly, I'd like to point out that a sub-theme of timer abuse games are those where the bad actor chooses to abuse the Rajhin, the Purring Liar Patron effect of adding a Bewilderment to the opponents deck as a way to further artificially lengthen the amount of time that is taken on a game. Due to circumstances that may arise in such games and how the Patron inherently works, it's even possible for a bad actor to buy one or two good cards, spend the rest of the game adding Bewilderments to an opponents deck while taking the full 1.5 minutes per turn, and still come out on top against a less fortunate opponent.

Thank you again for bringing the teams attention to the issue. I'm sure that solutions may come with their own complications that must be thought of carefully. Ultimately, the timer abuse seems to be instigated by a small number ( @DinoZavr possibly notes otherwise in their specific case) of players. The effects of the abuse ripples throughout TOT to the extent that many players may be impacted - I've been seeing the topic brought up in guild nearly every day.

I've watched the TOT ranked leaderboard fall in numbers, so I'm hopeful for action which could improve the state of the game.

opalbee · 3:46AM

I stopped playing against other players not long after ToT came out because of turn delaying, so I can only imagine how much worse it's gotten. I absolutely will not play against other players unless I know the person, which keeps me from playing live matches. If ZOS instituted some kind of "lightning round" match that limited the turns to 30-45 seconds I would be a lot more inclined to play other humans again.

msetten · 7:24AM

Personofsecrets wrote: »

- The players who engage in trolling behavior via timer abuse, especially when no further plays are available, come from a wide range of backgrounds.

If a player cannot make further plays, isn't that something that the game could detect itself and simply end the turn automatically when it sees there are no further plays?