How much of our lore is uniquely Elder Scrolls and how much of it is a rip-off?

Zombocalypse · October 19

Here's an example...

Orcs in all fantasy settings are all rip-offs from Tolkien's works. But Orcs being a subcategory of elves. Now that is an Elder Scrolls original.

I guess my favorite original ESO concept is the Vestige himself being an empty husk of a creature who happens to be the protagonist. Also, some of the creatures in this universe are absolutely alien. Like the netches. But then you got warring nations which sooo 2000-D&D.

Benzux · October 19

As a wise man once said, welcome to the Elder Scrolls! Our Orcs are elves and our Dwarves are elves! (heck, even our cat-people were once elves)

The Elder Scrolls series definitely started out as more generic and heavily influenced by other fantasy of the time, but has over the years developed into something unique. I don't think it's fair to call anything a "rip-off", it's more so "here's a fantasy universe utilizing pretty standard fantasy things that have existed for decades".

To answer the question of the title directly, the majority of it is what I would definitely call "uniquely Elder Scrolls".

For some of my favourite bits of lore that I find fascinating and pretty unique, I can't say I've come across any other fantasy worlds where one of the major races arose from bioengineering performed by sentient hivemind trees from another world (or even possibly a previous Kalpa, depending on how you want to interpret things), and that said trees can continue to perform bioengineering on individuals when the need arises. I also like that the sun is literally just a hole.

Zombocalypse · October 19

Benzux wrote: »

As a wise man once said, welcome to the Elder Scrolls! Our Orcs are elves and our Dwarves are elves! (heck, even our cat-people were once elves)

The Elder Scrolls series definitely started out as more generic and heavily influenced by other fantasy of the time, but has over the years developed into something unique. I don't think it's fair to call anything a "rip-off", it's more so "here's a fantasy universe utilizing pretty standard fantasy things that have existed for decades".

To answer the question of the title directly, the majority of it is what I would definitely call "uniquely Elder Scrolls".

For some of my favourite bits of lore that I find fascinating and pretty unique, I can't say I've come across any other fantasy worlds where one of the major races arose from bioengineering performed by sentient hivemind trees from another world (or even possibly a previous Kalpa, depending on how you want to interpret things), and that said trees can continue to perform bioengineering on individuals when the need arises. I also like that the sun is literally just a hole.

Favorite bits of lore, huh? Well, I guess my favorite bit of lore are Orcs having a gorilla-harem-like society in their tribes.

I mean bro, having that kind of visceral motivation will force you to become the strongest tribesman.

Also, I sometimes just wanna say screw the arcane and let me just discover some still-alive dwemer and pay them lots of gold in exchange for them to build me a dwemer castle fully fortified with defenses and robot soldiers that I can control with some device. Let's see any puny necromancer trying to fight off my ballista-wielding army.

I like... Orc culture, dwemer technology, and then just give me years of Thu'um training with the Greybeards and I'll attempt a conquest of Tamriel.

prof-dracko · October 20

All media can be reduced to basic tropes, it's not fair to say that anything is stolen from anywhere. Tolkien himself stole most of his elf and dwarf lore from Norse mythology.

That said, the fact that the sun is a hole in the fabric of reality and not and actual celestial body, which also still exist anyway, is amazing lore writing.

Supreme_Atromancer · October 27

Just for discussion's sake, weren't Tolkien's orcs made from corrupted elves?

I agree nothing is truly original, and I honestly think that tropes are overly maligned. I think if you read the formula for George Martin's Game of Thrones etc. it might seem tropey and boring. People bemoan another medieval European setting but he did it in such a compelling way that those arguments fall into irrelevance.

Meanwhile the eternal quest to kill Tolkien has resulted in so much "Our Elves Are Different" (or "Our Orcs are Different") that Different Elves feel like they've become the trope.

In the same way, I also feel like counter-stereotype can be terribly over-used, to the point where the stereotype has lost all narrative value, if that makes sense. In small doses, it can be interesting, but I feel like it is often overly leaned on.

I'm personally turned off by things that feel contrived, and would far rather a trope that is done well.

The_Meathead · October 27

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

Just for discussion's sake, weren't Tolkien's orcs made from corrupted elves?

I agree nothing is truly original, and I honestly think that tropes are overly maligned. I think if you read the formula for George Martin's Game of Thrones etc. it might seem tropey and boring. People bemoan another medieval European setting but he did it in such a compelling way that those arguments fall into irrelevance.

Meanwhile the eternal quest to kill Tolkien has resulted in so much "Our Elves Are Different" (or "Our Orcs are Different") that Different Elves feel like they've become the trope.

In the same way, I also feel like counter-stereotype can be terribly over-used, to the point where the stereotype has lost all narrative value, if that makes sense. In small doses, it can be interesting, but I feel like it is often overly leaned on.

I'm personally turned off by things that feel contrived, and would far rather a trope that is done well.

Wonderful post. Phenomenal, even.

I'd also add that there's been a sad infusion of "Family Friendly" to ESO that's tremendously discouraging to me, over time but especially in the last couple Xpacs. There's now an avoidance of a lot of aspects that make the gritty, oft brutal and morally grey setting into ... something Netflix or Disney would quickly churn out that I refer to as "Same Glop," where no matter the setting or timeframe, you're getting the same narrative emphasis and character archetypes.

Racism, slavery, choices with no easy outcome, that word that's part of Molag Bal's portfolio description... these are parts of the Elder Scrolls setting since its inception, but I've gotten the feeling of late that those up top have made a discerned effort to avoid topics deemed troublesome. It's as if we're not trusted with them, so we get a squeaky cheerful Bosmer pal and everything is black and white, instead.

It's a tremendous waste of an incredible setting and I hope they steer back around at some point.

Nerouyn · November 15

Zombocalypse wrote: »

Orcs in all fantasy settings are all rip-offs from Tolkien's works. But Orcs being a subcategory of elves. Now that is an Elder Scrolls original.

I don't know if it's original but dwarves as an elven sub-race is something I've only seen in Elder Scrolls.

prof-dracko wrote: »

All media can be reduced to basic tropes, it's not fair to say that anything is stolen from anywhere. Tolkien himself stole most of his elf and dwarf lore from Norse mythology.

I think the word stolen has some validity in relation to Tolkien because his portrayal of elves as tall, fair and semi-divine was kind of a first and his trilogy of elves, humans and dwarves versus orcs has been copied so widely since. Prior to him "elves" typically referred to little fairies.

Many franchises, including Elder Scrolls, have borrowed heavily from his elven language and naming conventions.

Though prior to ESO, Elder Scrolls elves were less classically beautiful and more goblin like in appearance and unlike Tolkien's elves, also less fundamentally good.

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

Just for discussion's sake, weren't Tolkien's orcs made from corrupted elves?

Tolkien didn't nail this detail down, but that was what the elves believed.

https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Orcs