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Undeath Nerf Should Have Included Nerf to Flame Damage
Thumbless_Bot
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Undeath passive requires stage 3 Vamp. When Undeath had its mitigation at a max of 30% it kind of made sense that stage 3 took the additional flame damage it takes. However, with the nerf to undeath, it has thrown this balance out of alignment. Details from ESO Skillbook below. At stage 3 I take 16% additional flame damage.
16% damage is broken for two reasons that I can think of:
1. 16% increase is additive and always on. undeath scales with missing health. This means that, no matter what my health is, I'm taking extra damage from anything and anyone with flame damage in pve and pvp. My mitigation doesn't even get close unless I'm in execute range.
2. The damage increase is additive and the mitigation is multiplicative. This means that if I get hit for 10k flame damage, I really get hit for 11,600. It is just added. However, the mitigation only applies to the percentage of damage I haven't already mitigated. For example, if I'm at the mitigation cap of 33.5k resist I get 50% damage reduction. This means I'm exposed to 50% of the damage. Undeath would be at best 15% of this, or 7.5% of the overall damage, and this is only when I'm already in execute range.
This is completely unbalanced I would ask ZOS to rework the penalties and benefits of vamp stages. I'm not asking for a buff to undeath, just that the associated penalties are reduced to be in balance.
Stage 1/2/3/4 Health Recovery: -10%/-30%/-60%/-100% Flame Damage Taken: +5%/+8%/+13%/+20% Regular Ability Costs: +3%/+5%/+8%/+12% Vampire Ability Costs: -6%/-10%/-16%/-24%
16% damage is broken for two reasons that I can think of:
1. 16% increase is additive and always on. undeath scales with missing health. This means that, no matter what my health is, I'm taking extra damage from anything and anyone with flame damage in pve and pvp. My mitigation doesn't even get close unless I'm in execute range.
2. The damage increase is additive and the mitigation is multiplicative. This means that if I get hit for 10k flame damage, I really get hit for 11,600. It is just added. However, the mitigation only applies to the percentage of damage I haven't already mitigated. For example, if I'm at the mitigation cap of 33.5k resist I get 50% damage reduction. This means I'm exposed to 50% of the damage. Undeath would be at best 15% of this, or 7.5% of the overall damage, and this is only when I'm already in execute range.
This is completely unbalanced I would ask ZOS to rework the penalties and benefits of vamp stages. I'm not asking for a buff to undeath, just that the associated penalties are reduced to be in balance.
Stage 1/2/3/4 Health Recovery: -10%/-30%/-60%/-100% Flame Damage Taken: +5%/+8%/+13%/+20% Regular Ability Costs: +3%/+5%/+8%/+12% Vampire Ability Costs: -6%/-10%/-16%/-24%
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CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You're supposed to take more flame damage. The fact that Old Undeath offset the flame damage taken was silly.
It's like people don't get the point of a nerf.8 -
Thumbless_Bot✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »You're supposed to take more flame damage. The fact that Old Undeath offset the flame damage taken was silly.
It's like people don't get the point of a nerf.
Agree, it's just out of balance. "More" is relative and I think the flame damage is too high for the benefits of stage 3.0 -
The_Meathead✭✭✭✭Thumbless_Bot wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »You're supposed to take more flame damage. The fact that Old Undeath offset the flame damage taken was silly.
It's like people don't get the point of a nerf.
Agree, it's just out of balance. "More" is relative and I think the flame damage is too high for the benefits of stage 3.
I'll agree to disagree, then. Undeath is still a pretty noticeable boon when I have it, even at 15% and even with Fire Damage as it is.
Which makes it absolutely LUDICROUS that for so long Undeath was 30%. If it's still worth taking at half strength, how the heck did it go so long like that?! Not like it wasn't called out frequently on the Forums or PTS.
To the point, though, Fire Damage actually hurting (badly) is the point of it. It should have all along.3 -
Thumbless_Bot✭✭✭TheThe_Meathead wrote: »Thumbless_Bot wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »You're supposed to take more flame damage. The fact that Old Undeath offset the flame damage taken was silly.
It's like people don't get the point of a nerf.
Agree, it's just out of balance. "More" is relative and I think the flame damage is too high for the benefits of stage 3.
I'll agree to disagree, then. Undeath is still a pretty noticeable boon when I have it, even at 15% and even with Fire Damage as it is.
Which makes it absolutely LUDICROUS that for so long Undeath was 30%. If it's still worth taking at half strength, how the heck did it go so long like that?! Not like it wasn't called out frequently on the Forums or PTS.
To the point, though, Fire Damage actually hurting (badly) is the point of it. It should have all along.
There is zero benefit to the player for fire damage hurting badly at stage 3 except reduced cost of vampire skills of an additional six percent. It is simply not worth it. As I noted above, I am not asking for, nor do I think there should be, buff to undeath. However, constant additive damage of 16% for a maximum... not constant nor additive but mutilpkicative maximum, of about 7.5% damage mitigation is out of balance. I am simply asking zos to either provide tangible benefit to stage three that is in balance or reduce the penalties to make them balanced.
The simplest solution is to reduce flame damage to make it make sense.Edited by Thumbless_Bot on October 25, 2024 4:13PM0 -
Nihilr✭✭✭I think the point of this thread is actually:
There's no point in being anything but a stage 4 vampire since the undeath fix. What's *4% additional everything* in exchange for for invisibility without need for cloak?
(and by no means am I hating it for being this way--Everything in PvP has felt healthier since the undeath fix).Edited by Nihilr on October 27, 2024 9:38PM1 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭yea Thematically you want fire to auto kill vampires based on ES lore. Gameplay, it might feel weird to have it in a MMO build around high burst pvp. But this is a healthy change. The other skills should offset it though, maybe it becomes a nighttime OP series of cycles.
But otherwise its a good change.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual2 -
Vampires are weak to flames, so it makes sense that Undeath shouldn't invalidate/offset flame damage. Also, I had a vampire rework idea of my own. Feel free to check it out!!! (I only have 3 posts so far, so just click on my username 😊 enjoy!!!1 -
Thumbless_Bot✭✭✭I dont disagree with anything anyone has said except that I believe the cost benefit of stage 3 isn't there any more. With the nerf to undeath there is now zero reason to run stage 3 as the costs are higher than the benefits. It's either stage 2 or 4.... or do something to either the cost (reduce) or the benefits (buff) of stage 3. However, as stated above, I think undeath is in a good place. Zos just needs to look at stage 3 holistically...2
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Nihilr✭✭✭I see. Maybe stage 3 and up allows for reaving strikes? (Similar but much smaller version of siphoning strikes (NB) or the Champion star? Like 2% (level 3) and 4% (level 4) of damage done heals you..?0
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Thumbless_Bot✭✭✭I see. Maybe stage 3 and up allows for reaving strikes? (Similar but much smaller version of siphoning strikes (NB) or the Champion star? Like 2% (level 3) and 4% (level 4) of damage done heals you..?
Something like this... it's just gotta be worthwhile. At 100% health i take 13% extra flame damage and get zero mitigation with undeath, at 10% health i take the same 13% extra flame damage and get at best 6.125% damage reduction due to undeath and that's not balanced. Against the fire dragon or mag dk this is problematic. Add that to the increased cost and it really isn't a viable option.Edited by Thumbless_Bot on October 29, 2024 12:14AM0