Max mag and stam useless
MincMincMinc
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Seriously what use does the max stat provide except for mag sorcs? The tension or necessity of these stats is no longer. How is this statement true? How to address it?
This will mostly come across for PvP, however this can cross over into pve for aspects like solo farming/dungeoning. For reference I have included the below spoiler to prove the outgoing damage differences in choosing Stam, WD, or Pen. I also included a retest using Bound Armaments 8% on a sorc(sorc 10% stam passive active)
From the above spoiler max stats even with every buff available, still fall short. You will ALWAYS choose to max out pen to the enemy's resists. Then stack WD, then scrounge up max stat.
"Oh but max stat provides sustain" Not really considering recovery is given out like candy. If your input Stam recovery matches your outgoing costs, the capacity of your pool doesn't matter. The last time I felt like I needed a capacity sustain build was back in the IC days. Recovery has 3-5x since then, if you are a half decent player you would do fine with a ~15k pool
"Oh but max stat provides healing" Compared to WD it is still less by 40-50%. Not to mention in most cases most of the best heals are max health based.
"Well you will still pick up max stat in food, glyphs, attributes" Well should you? In pvp having an extra 10-15k health can be rather useful. You can usually avoid pressure builds with the terrible state of movement. Most burst players are going to gas out on a 40-50k health bar.
How do you bring the tension back?
The most straight forward answer would be to make heals be inversely scaling. If damage skills gain 40-50% more with WD/SD than max stats..... Make heal skills gain the 40-50% more with max stats instead of WD/SD. Just inverse the scaling.
Following this would be
Until then, idk you should try just ignoring max stats in pvp and hard stack health as much as you can handle. Keep in mind a health mundus choice gave 2.5k hp compared to 379dmg given with the stam mundus.
I also did check and these damage mundus's are correctly standardized with 2-4 piece set bonuses. (pretty sure the recovery mundus's weren't, lol atleast they try)
This will mostly come across for PvP, however this can cross over into pve for aspects like solo farming/dungeoning. For reference I have included the below spoiler to prove the outgoing damage differences in choosing Stam, WD, or Pen. I also included a retest using Bound Armaments 8% on a sorc(sorc 10% stam passive active)
Wreckingblow baseline =11 585 dmg
Stam(Without BA) = 11 964 dmg.............3.27% increase
WD =12 114 dmg.........................................4.56% increase (40% more damage gained compared to Stam) (probably 50% without sorc 10% resource bonus)
Pen =12 266 dmg.......................................5.9% increase (80% more damage gained compared to Stam)
Base(with BA) = 11 794 dmg....................1.8% increase
Stam(with BA) =12 200 dmg ..................5.3% increase
WD(with BA) = 12 323 dmg......................6.37% increase (30% more damage gained compared to Stam with BA)
Pen(with BA) = 12 487 dmg......................7.79% increase (70% more damage gained compared to Stam with BA)
Stam(Without BA) = 11 964 dmg.............3.27% increase
WD =12 114 dmg.........................................4.56% increase (40% more damage gained compared to Stam) (probably 50% without sorc 10% resource bonus)
Pen =12 266 dmg.......................................5.9% increase (80% more damage gained compared to Stam)
Base(with BA) = 11 794 dmg....................1.8% increase
Stam(with BA) =12 200 dmg ..................5.3% increase
WD(with BA) = 12 323 dmg......................6.37% increase (30% more damage gained compared to Stam with BA)
Pen(with BA) = 12 487 dmg......................7.79% increase (70% more damage gained compared to Stam with BA)
From the above spoiler max stats even with every buff available, still fall short. You will ALWAYS choose to max out pen to the enemy's resists. Then stack WD, then scrounge up max stat.
"Oh but max stat provides sustain" Not really considering recovery is given out like candy. If your input Stam recovery matches your outgoing costs, the capacity of your pool doesn't matter. The last time I felt like I needed a capacity sustain build was back in the IC days. Recovery has 3-5x since then, if you are a half decent player you would do fine with a ~15k pool
"Oh but max stat provides healing" Compared to WD it is still less by 40-50%. Not to mention in most cases most of the best heals are max health based.
"Well you will still pick up max stat in food, glyphs, attributes" Well should you? In pvp having an extra 10-15k health can be rather useful. You can usually avoid pressure builds with the terrible state of movement. Most burst players are going to gas out on a 40-50k health bar.
How do you bring the tension back?
The most straight forward answer would be to make heals be inversely scaling. If damage skills gain 40-50% more with WD/SD than max stats..... Make heal skills gain the 40-50% more with max stats instead of WD/SD. Just inverse the scaling.
Following this would be
- a rebalancing of the food system, which is a complete mess and desperately needed.
- Armor glyph rebalance, Tri glyphs should be 1:1 with the single stat glyphs, not just flat out more efficient. Dual glyphs could be added Health+stam, mag+stam, Health+mag
Until then, idk you should try just ignoring max stats in pvp and hard stack health as much as you can handle. Keep in mind a health mundus choice gave 2.5k hp compared to 379dmg given with the stam mundus.
I also did check and these damage mundus's are correctly standardized with 2-4 piece set bonuses. (pretty sure the recovery mundus's weren't, lol atleast they try)
I only use insightful
BG MMR should NOT reset, zos sponsored smurfing is a terrible design choice.
PvP needs more incentives, even simple purple/gold mats would suffice.
BG MMR should NOT reset, zos sponsored smurfing is a terrible design choice.
PvP needs more incentives, even simple purple/gold mats would suffice.
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AcadianPaladin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If you ask my healer to lose significant damage to be a healer, she will turn in her healing staff and join the hordes of dd's. I suspect I'm not alone. The reason there are less healers than dd's is because healers do less damage than dd's. The reasaon there are less tanks than healers is because tanks do less damage than healers.PC NA(no Steam), PvE, mostly solo0 -
Nissowolf✭✭✭✭AcadianPaladin wrote: »If you ask my healer to lose significant damage to be a healer, she will turn in her healing staff and join the hordes of dd's. I suspect I'm not alone. The reason there are less healers than dd's is because healers do less damage than dd's. The reasaon there are less tanks than healers is because tanks do less damage than healers.
i mean, that's not your role to do damages. You're supposed to do healing, not damage the enemy.
And he's got a rather good point.Roleplayer8 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭AcadianPaladin wrote: »If you ask my healer to lose significant damage to be a healer, she will turn in her healing staff and join the hordes of dd's. I suspect I'm not alone. The reason there are less healers than dd's is because healers do less damage than dd's. The reasaon there are less tanks than healers is because tanks do less damage than healers.
I'm not sure on your point. At no point would healers lose on damage. If anything they may gain some depending on your choice.
Right now max stats have a clear direction that grants tank, heal, and damage all at once. My proposal just separates the tank stat(health) from damage and healing roles. The point is that you shouldn't have your cake and eat it too.
Tanks wont be able to stack only health(as I do now lol) while still healing to the fullest because they get it from WD in the build (my proposal is such you must stack max stat for healing efficiency)
Damage players will have slight healing with WD/SD, but will have to choose either health(tank) or Max stat(healing+some damage)
Healers would be choosing between healing(max stat) or tank(health). If they want damage, they'd have to build for it else where.Edited by MincMincMinc on September 24, 2024 12:17PMI only use insightful
BG MMR should NOT reset, zos sponsored smurfing is a terrible design choice.
PvP needs more incentives, even simple purple/gold mats would suffice.1 -
Zodiarkslayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Max Stat and WD/SD determine an abilities damage output together.
Every ability in the game has a formula that determines the damage before mitigation. I recommend the uesp.net build editor. Next to every ability there are three little dots. Press them and up pops the data for the respective ability.
For Wrecking Blow it's this formula:
= 0.11879 MaxStat + 1.2473 MaxDamage
So, with Less Max Stat there will always be less damage.
What actually makes a big difference is numerous combat buffs to MaxDamage that can be dynamically applied during combat. They tip the scale.
Major and Minor Brutality/Sorcery
Fighters Guild passive
some Class Passives
Dual Wield off Hand Bonus
Medium Armor bonus
Etc. Etc.
@MincMincMinc You should probably redo your math and reevaluate your conclusion with this new information in mind.Edited by Zodiarkslayer on September 24, 2024 8:14PMNo Effort, No Reward?
No Reward, No Effort!1 -
AcadianPaladin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭My healer is fun because when she solos, she can do enough damage to avoid tedium. Further, I'm not talking about elite trial specialized healers, I'm talking healers that run pugs who need to shift healing/support/damage on a sliding scale on the fly to provide what their pug needs. Because of her gear and the skills she slots, she'll never compete with a real dd and that's not her objective. Fortunately, the same stats that boost her healing also happily boost her damage to a useful level.
Again, nerf my healer's incidental damage and she'll abandon the role and become a dd. The specific nerf that would certainly trigger it for me would be if weapon/spell damage no longer boosted both healing and damage.PC NA(no Steam), PvE, mostly solo0 -
Thumbless_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭Zodiarkslayer wrote: »Max Stat and WD/SD determine an abilities damage output together.
Every ability in the game has a formula that determines the damage before mitigation. I recommend the uesp.net build editor. Next to every ability there are three little dots. Press them and up pops the data for the respective ability.
For Wrecking Blow it's this formula:
= 0.11879 MaxStat + 1.2473 MaxDamage
So, with Less Max Stat there will always be less damage.
What actually makes a big difference is numerous combat buffs to MaxDamage that can be dynamically applied during combat. They tip the scale.
Major and Minor Brutality/Sorcery
Fighters Guild passive
some Class Passives
Dual Wield off Hand Bonus
Medium Armor bonus
Etc. Etc.
@MincMincMinc You should probably redo your math and reevaluate your conclusion with this new information in mind.
Pretty much...
Fir example:
I run jewels of misrule. If I switch to sugar skulls my dizzy damage output goes up by about 4.5%, but my sustain is hit.
My weapon damage stays the same as do the damage modifiers.
Long story short stats give you additional resources to cast more skills without considering regen, but damage has more modifiers that help buff it.
I believe the same sort of logic applies to heals... damage bumps it as do stats.0 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Zodiarkslayer wrote: »Max Stat and WD/SD determine an abilities damage output together.
Every ability in the game has a formula that determines the damage before mitigation. I recommend the uesp.net build editor. Next to every ability there are three little dots. Press them and up pops the data for the respective ability.
For Wrecking Blow it's this formula:
= 0.11879 MaxStat + 1.2473 MaxDamage
So, with Less Max Stat there will always be less damage.
What actually makes a big difference is numerous combat buffs to MaxDamage that can be dynamically applied during combat. They tip the scale.
Major and Minor Brutality/Sorcery
Fighters Guild passive
some Class Passives
Dual Wield off Hand Bonus
Medium Armor bonus
Etc. Etc.
@MincMincMinc You should probably redo your math and reevaluate your conclusion with this new information in mind.
Thanks, but my numbers aren't from a 3rd party calculation program that isn't always functional or up to date, as much as I love UESP. Build Link: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=639341
Those were real ingame numbers with an extremely stat dense stamsorc build. All possible buffs applied except for sundered. Of course they were done on a target dummy, couldnt find anyone willing to afk duel me for half an hour. But the battlespirit would be a blanket across all my numbers anyways so the difference would be the same.I only use insightful
BG MMR should NOT reset, zos sponsored smurfing is a terrible design choice.
PvP needs more incentives, even simple purple/gold mats would suffice.0 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Thumbless_Bot wrote: »Zodiarkslayer wrote: »Max Stat and WD/SD determine an abilities damage output together.
Every ability in the game has a formula that determines the damage before mitigation. I recommend the uesp.net build editor. Next to every ability there are three little dots. Press them and up pops the data for the respective ability.
For Wrecking Blow it's this formula:
= 0.11879 MaxStat + 1.2473 MaxDamage
So, with Less Max Stat there will always be less damage.
What actually makes a big difference is numerous combat buffs to MaxDamage that can be dynamically applied during combat. They tip the scale.
Major and Minor Brutality/Sorcery
Fighters Guild passive
some Class Passives
Dual Wield off Hand Bonus
Medium Armor bonus
Etc. Etc.
@MincMincMinc You should probably redo your math and reevaluate your conclusion with this new information in mind.
Pretty much...
Fir example:
I run jewels of misrule. If I switch to sugar skulls my dizzy damage output goes up by about 4.5%, but my sustain is hit.
My weapon damage stays the same as do the damage modifiers.
Long story short stats give you additional resources to cast more skills without considering regen, but damage has more modifiers that help buff it.
I believe the same sort of logic applies to heals... damage bumps it as do stats.
Right, I wasn't saying that stats do not play in to your damage. Just that they are so inefficient, you are better off choosing health which is one of the most useful and efficient stats in tpvp right now paired with pen which practically provides 2x the damage as the stats would give you. Needing the sustain aspect is a L2P requirement due to how easy regen is to get.Edited by MincMincMinc on September 27, 2024 1:18PMI only use insightful
BG MMR should NOT reset, zos sponsored smurfing is a terrible design choice.
PvP needs more incentives, even simple purple/gold mats would suffice.1 -
Zodiarkslayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yeah, I know UESP.NET has some problems. But they root in the calculation that the browser does, not the data base they keep. The intel on how abilities scale is accurate. As a matter of fact, uesp.net is the best source for this kind of information.
And that was my point. Abilities significantly scale with max ressources. Disregarding them entirely is too drastic a statement in my opinion.No Effort, No Reward?
No Reward, No Effort!1 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Zodiarkslayer wrote: »Yeah, I know UESP.NET has some problems. But they root in the calculation that the browser does, not the data base they keep. The intel on how abilities scale is accurate. As a matter of fact, uesp.net is the best source for this kind of information.
And that was my point. Abilities significantly scale with max ressources. Disregarding them entirely is too drastic a statement in my opinion.
Well sure if you only want damage and have no care for tankiness. Which in pvp this is typically never the case.
My point is that the (food+attribute+armorGlyph) choice HEAVILY favors choosing health nearly 5:1. So instead of trading pen or wd choices, you should always give up max stat instead.
By the time you hit pen cap and have a wd/sd set you wont need more damage, and you have the choice of 1-3% more damage from max stats or doubling your health pool. I would choose the health pool everytime. Over killing a target achieves nothing, but surviving 2x the burst is crazy.I only use insightful
BG MMR should NOT reset, zos sponsored smurfing is a terrible design choice.
PvP needs more incentives, even simple purple/gold mats would suffice.0 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭AcadianPaladin wrote: »If you ask my healer to lose significant damage to be a healer, she will turn in her healing staff and join the hordes of dd's. I suspect I'm not alone. The reason there are less healers than dd's is because healers do less damage than dd's. The reasaon there are less tanks than healers is because tanks do less damage than healers.
i mean, that's not your role to do damages. You're supposed to do healing, not damage the enemy.
And he's got a rather good point.
Welcome to ESO, where the roles are blurred so that a true trinity is needed only for the most challenging content.
When I was leveling my first character, I would queue as a healer and ended up doing more damage than everyone else combined, providing heals and some sustain. Granted, that was via GF groups.
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ragnarok6644b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭I am confused about the complaint - ESO allows you to build a good all-rounder character and that's bad because *reasons*?
Is that the problem this is trying to solve? Or is this a solution in search of a problem?Edited by ragnarok6644b14_ESO on October 3, 2024 10:34PM0 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »I am confused about the complaint - ESO allows you to build a good all-rounder character and that's bad because *reasons*?
Is that the problem this is trying to solve? Or is this a solution in search of a problem?
Eso doesn't allow you to build.....there is no choice in this case. Everyone makes all of the same choices as there is no point to run anything else when there is a more efficient choice. EX: One set gives you 500wd and another gives you 1000wd, which one do you choose? The 1000wd one obviously, there is effectively no choice here.
If max stam and mag provide no benefit why choose it over max health except in raw dps builds.
Damage wise one line of wd provides 40-50% more outgoing damage. One line of pen provides 80-100% more outgoing damage.
Sustain wise, there is so much recovery in the game I'd have to go back 7+ years to when people actually ran deficit builds with 50k stam. It is so easy to run surplus to the point where you really only need 15k for a buffer.
You want tension in your choices, otherwise they are meaningless.Edited by MincMincMinc on October 4, 2024 1:14AMI only use insightful
BG MMR should NOT reset, zos sponsored smurfing is a terrible design choice.
PvP needs more incentives, even simple purple/gold mats would suffice.0 -
ragnarok6644b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭MincMincMinc wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »I am confused about the complaint - ESO allows you to build a good all-rounder character and that's bad because *reasons*?
Is that the problem this is trying to solve? Or is this a solution in search of a problem?
Eso doesn't allow you to build.....there is no choice in this case. Everyone makes all of the same choices as there is no point to run anything else when there is a more efficient choice. EX: One set gives you 500wd and another gives you 1000wd, which one do you choose? The 1000wd one obviously, there is effectively no choice here.
If max stam and mag provide no benefit why choose it over max health except in raw dps builds.
Damage wise one line of wd provides 40-50% more outgoing damage. One line of pen provides 80-100% more outgoing damage.
Sustain wise, there is so much recovery in the game I'd have to go back 7+ years to when people actually ran deficit builds with 50k stam. It is so easy to run surplus to the point where you really only need 15k for a buffer.
You want tension in your choices, otherwise they are meaningless.
I wonder if it's true that everyone runs the same thing or not. I doubt many folks are running what I run.0 -
Zodiarkslayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭What OP means is that PvP is an unbalanced mess with no actual choices and no real diversity, because deviating from the META is tantamount to crippling yourself.
In my opinion, that is a general PvP problem, not a general "Mag and Stam are useless" problem. Because Mag and Stam are far from useless outside of PvP.No Effort, No Reward?
No Reward, No Effort!0 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Zodiarkslayer wrote: »What OP means is that PvP is an unbalanced mess with no actual choices and no real diversity, because deviating from the META is tantamount to crippling yourself.
In my opinion, that is a general PvP problem, not a general "Mag and Stam are useless" problem. Because Mag and Stam are far from useless outside of PvP.
Correct
Endgame content pve sure, dd will always only stack damage choices when possible. However, its not like they would be affected. Rebalancing the food system would probably help in many cases. Adding duoglyph armor enchants and balancing triglyphs would maybe affect tank builds by a little(lose like 2-3k hp if anything) Healers would actually gain from having max stats grant more healing.
Not all pve'ers are at raw endgame builds/skill though. Much like pvp building there are pugs that make rounded build choices because they feel they lack survivability or sustain etc. Or if you need to solo farm dungeons and cant rely on the pugs to do damage/heal/tank so you have to do all three.
Even for pve you still want your build choices to matter and stats to have good tension. Be more interesting if build tailoring was an aspect of late game pve.I only use insightful
BG MMR should NOT reset, zos sponsored smurfing is a terrible design choice.
PvP needs more incentives, even simple purple/gold mats would suffice.0