Major Concerns that Effect PVE and the Game. PVP and PVE are two different games.

Aggrovious · September 17

Oh this is a cool, let me just farm this...NERF! OR NOTHING!

Something is discussed as really OP in PVP so its changed and it actually hurts PVE more. Azureblight, Artic Blast (?), Frozen Gate, Ironblood, Plaguebreaker, Nightblade protentional nerfs (pending PTS), Necro's harmony gone, etc. I want to bring it to the ZOS attention that changing something because a PVP player complains about how OP it is to their ball group is also inversely changing PVE. PVE is very much a required part of this game and there are plenty of people like myself who just want gear to solo bosses and theory craft. It becomes more difficult to do this when mythics, overland, dungeon, and (maybe) class sets are getting nerfed with no usability. Yes, its very ridiculous to nerf a class set when infinite archive is astronomically long to begin with and now pyrebrand is on the chopping block. Granted, the official reason is pyrebrand is out parsing Relequen supposedly, but that's a bad reason to nerf it when it was just added if thats the case.

Why is it that ZOS never listens to PVP! I think they do actually, because I see alot of things being changed solely on the forum suggestions...

My suggestions to correct these serious combability issues are:

Separate PVP and PVE. They are not and will never be the same game. Its time to fully separate them and update battle spirit. Battle spirit's adjustments are to optimize and balance PVP more. Everything else stays the same to an extent.

Give PVP its own server and give them an update. Cyrodiil should be redesigned with optimization in mind. PVE will then continue on its current server. Two servers that you should be allowed to move your character to and from for the purpose of gear. Also, it would be cool if a fourth alliance is added such as a the Daedric forces to encourage balance and meaningful gameplay. So instead of 2v1 its 2v2s.

Delete Cyrodiil and Imperial City. PVP is now open world. If Cyrodiil is causing a lot of server space and you don't want to update it, then maybe delete it?

What do I hope to gain from this post? To spread awareness to ZOS and have more viable options to use in PVE. My friend told me to not take PVE seriously because players that do get frustrated and quit. Well, he is talking about all of the PVP changes that hit PVE way harder.

I welcome anyone to break this post down and discuss any of these suggestions. Most of these were suggestions I have read in zone chats or came up with on the fly.

TaSheen · September 17

This has been brought up over and over for all the years I've been lurking (and then posting) on this forum. An expansion of battle spirit to handle this seems to be the logical thing to do. But I'm not expecting ZOS to do this (or anything else much along this line) because AFAIK they've never really addressed why they seem to be totally averse to separating the two modes.

I don't pvp any more (not since I left WoW and RIFT over a decade ago) so I'll not address anything to do with separating servers etc.

Aurielle · September 17

Best solution is for ZOS to make better use of Battle Spirit. There's not much more to say than that. If a skill or set is overperforming in PVP only, there's really no reason for it to be nerfed in PVE as well (and vice versa). It blows my mind a little that Battle Spirit isn't used more.

moderatelyfatman · September 17

Take a look at the Velothi-Ur Amulet

Also take a look at the tooltip for Empower.

What do they both have in common: the player does a different amount of damage depending on whether they are attacking a player or a monster.
Basically, the ability to balance PvE and PvP together has always been there. If skill is hitting too hard in PvP, just reduce the damage by 25% and then add it back in as "+33% damage against monsters". If nightblades aren't getting enough cleave in PvE, add that monster damage in as an AOE.

Class balanced in both PvE and PvP, players happy (or significantly less unhappy).

Aggrovious · September 17

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Take a look at the Velothi-Ur Amulet

Also take a look at the tooltip for Empower.

What do they both have in common: the player does a different amount of damage depending on whether they are attacking a player or a monster.
Basically, the ability to balance PvE and PvP together has always been there. If skill is hitting too hard in PvP, just reduce the damage by 25% and then add it back in as "+33% damage against monsters". If nightblades aren't getting enough cleave in PvE, add that monster damage in as an AOE.

Class balanced in both PvE and PvP, players happy (or significantly less unhappy).

One mythic does not solve this ongoing problem. Neither does it satisfy my argument of not being able to theory craft. Just build relequen and velothi. That's boring and there are other options, but there should always be more.

moderatelyfatman · September 17

Aggrovious wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Take a look at the Velothi-Ur Amulet

Also take a look at the tooltip for Empower.

What do they both have in common: the player does a different amount of damage depending on whether they are attacking a player or a monster.
Basically, the ability to balance PvE and PvP together has always been there. If skill is hitting too hard in PvP, just reduce the damage by 25% and then add it back in as "+33% damage against monsters". If nightblades aren't getting enough cleave in PvE, add that monster damage in as an AOE.

Class balanced in both PvE and PvP, players happy (or significantly less unhappy).

One mythic does not solve this ongoing problem. Neither does it satisfy my argument of not being able to theory craft. Just build relequen and velothi. That's boring and there are other options, but there should always be more.

I think you have missed my point. I'm suggesting that you add the '+damage to monsters' onto the skills in order to balance them for PvE and PvP since that option already exists on items.

TaSheen · September 17

A few lines of code in battle spirit is less effort than reworking every set.

Aggrovious · September 17

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Aggrovious wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Take a look at the Velothi-Ur Amulet

Also take a look at the tooltip for Empower.

What do they both have in common: the player does a different amount of damage depending on whether they are attacking a player or a monster.
Basically, the ability to balance PvE and PvP together has always been there. If skill is hitting too hard in PvP, just reduce the damage by 25% and then add it back in as "+33% damage against monsters". If nightblades aren't getting enough cleave in PvE, add that monster damage in as an AOE.

Class balanced in both PvE and PvP, players happy (or significantly less unhappy).

One mythic does not solve this ongoing problem. Neither does it satisfy my argument of not being able to theory craft. Just build relequen and velothi. That's boring and there are other options, but there should always be more.

I think you have missed my point. I'm suggesting that you add the '+damage to monsters' onto the skills in order to balance them for PvE and PvP since that option already exists on items.

I do not like this suggestion because what if I want to take this to PVP. Then PVP should be different with battle spirt or what have you. I can not theory craft if we apply more limits to abilities and sets

valenwood_vegan · September 17

They absolutely need to put more work into balancing the two modes separately. That way, they can constantly readjust sets and skills in pvp every two weeks in response to the forum nerf-this squad's complaints of the moment, without it spilling over into the rest of the game.

ESO_player123 · September 17

I agree that the two modes need to be balanced separately. I am too tired of stuff being nerfed because something outperforms in PVP. It seems that that they do have the ability to distinguish the modes (battle spirit and the mentioned before "against monsters" ). I do not understand why they do not use that to expand it to more items/situations.

Vaqual · September 17

It is mathematically absolutely doable to provide balancing that fits both modes. Players expecting more OP stuff based on existing OP stuff doesn't mean that more things need to be OP.
PvE doesn't need any more power creep. Most things can easily take a hit to account for PvP issues and content would still be clearable.
Seamless transitions between PvE and PvP are ideal to me.

ESO_player123 · September 17

Vaqual wrote: »

It is mathematically absolutely doable to provide balancing that fits both modes. Players expecting more OP stuff based on existing OP stuff doesn't mean that more things need to be OP.
PvE doesn't need any more power creep. Most things can easily take a hit to account for PvP issues and content would still be clearable.
Seamless transitions between PvE and PvP are ideal to me.

But why should PvErs get a hit because of a basically separate game mode with its own rules and distinct issues? Seems to me that it would be logical to separate the two so no one will have to complain about the changes made because of the other mode.

Vaqual · September 17

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

It is mathematically absolutely doable to provide balancing that fits both modes. Players expecting more OP stuff based on existing OP stuff doesn't mean that more things need to be OP.
PvE doesn't need any more power creep. Most things can easily take a hit to account for PvP issues and content would still be clearable.
Seamless transitions between PvE and PvP are ideal to me.

But why should PvErs get a hit because of a basically separate game mode with its own rules and distinct issues? Seems to me that it would be logical to separate the two so no one will have to complain about the changes made because of the other mode.

Because the power isn't needed in PvE and a detriment to the game in PvP. Adjusting that is a victimless crime.

El_Borracho · September 17

TaSheen wrote: »

A few lines of code in battle spirit is less effort than reworking every set.

True, but that would only nerf the amount of "nerf this set in PVP" posts on these forums. And I can only read so many "fake tank" and "why can't we have capes and spears" threads.

sarahthes · September 17

Sets should just say "to monsters" or "to players/when battle spirit is active" in the tooltip. And sets that don't say that should be balanced for both (SPC/olorime is an example that wouldn't need adjusting, for example), or clearly designed so that they work on one but don't work on the other - the new PvP sourced sets are a good example as the way they work makes them useless for PvE.

TaSheen · September 17

El_Borracho wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

A few lines of code in battle spirit is less effort than reworking every set.

True, but that would only nerf the amount of "nerf this set in PVP" posts on these forums. And I can only read so many "fake tank" and "why can't we have capes and spears" threads.

Yeah. All too true!

ESO_player123 · September 17

Vaqual wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

It is mathematically absolutely doable to provide balancing that fits both modes. Players expecting more OP stuff based on existing OP stuff doesn't mean that more things need to be OP.
PvE doesn't need any more power creep. Most things can easily take a hit to account for PvP issues and content would still be clearable.
Seamless transitions between PvE and PvP are ideal to me.

But why should PvErs get a hit because of a basically separate game mode with its own rules and distinct issues? Seems to me that it would be logical to separate the two so no one will have to complain about the changes made because of the other mode.

Because the power isn't needed in PvE and a detriment to the game in PvP. Adjusting that is a victimless crime.

I disagree. If something is not right in PvE then it should be adjusted considering PvE only, not another unrelated game mode. Especially since we already have battle spirit and items that specifically say "monsters only". If you look at the PTS forum, most of the complaints and nerf requests are from the PvP side of the game. So, may be if more stuff was tied to battle spirit/players vs monsters then we would have a lot less resentment overall without the need to take nice things from other players.

Vaqual · September 17

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

It is mathematically absolutely doable to provide balancing that fits both modes. Players expecting more OP stuff based on existing OP stuff doesn't mean that more things need to be OP.
PvE doesn't need any more power creep. Most things can easily take a hit to account for PvP issues and content would still be clearable.
Seamless transitions between PvE and PvP are ideal to me.

But why should PvErs get a hit because of a basically separate game mode with its own rules and distinct issues? Seems to me that it would be logical to separate the two so no one will have to complain about the changes made because of the other mode.

Because the power isn't needed in PvE and a detriment to the game in PvP. Adjusting that is a victimless crime.

I disagree. If something is not right in PvE then it should be adjusted considering PvE only, not another unrelated game mode. Especially since we already have battle spirit and items that specifically say "monsters only". If you look at the PTS forum, most of the complaints and nerf requests are from the PvP side of the game. So, may be if more stuff was tied to battle spirit/players vs monsters then we would have a lot less resentment overall without the need to take nice things from other players.

I personally find it annoying when sets have benefits or conditions that are not applicable for either game mode. I want my characters to be able to swap between modes without reworking their identity. This seems almost exclusively problematic for high performing sets and abilities. And I will not be convinced that PvE is suffering from most of the tweaks that are happening. People are parsing consistently higher every year.

ESO_player123 · September 18

Vaqual wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

It is mathematically absolutely doable to provide balancing that fits both modes. Players expecting more OP stuff based on existing OP stuff doesn't mean that more things need to be OP.
PvE doesn't need any more power creep. Most things can easily take a hit to account for PvP issues and content would still be clearable.
Seamless transitions between PvE and PvP are ideal to me.

But why should PvErs get a hit because of a basically separate game mode with its own rules and distinct issues? Seems to me that it would be logical to separate the two so no one will have to complain about the changes made because of the other mode.

Because the power isn't needed in PvE and a detriment to the game in PvP. Adjusting that is a victimless crime.

I disagree. If something is not right in PvE then it should be adjusted considering PvE only, not another unrelated game mode. Especially since we already have battle spirit and items that specifically say "monsters only". If you look at the PTS forum, most of the complaints and nerf requests are from the PvP side of the game. So, may be if more stuff was tied to battle spirit/players vs monsters then we would have a lot less resentment overall without the need to take nice things from other players.

I personally find it annoying when sets have benefits or conditions that are not applicable for either game mode. I want my characters to be able to swap between modes without reworking their identity. This seems almost exclusively problematic for high performing sets and abilities. And I will not be convinced that PvE is suffering from most of the tweaks that are happening. People are parsing consistently higher every year.

It's not the people that parse high are affected usually. It's those in the middle that try to dabble in slightly more advanced content (IMHO).
I'm not sure what you mean by "without reworking identity", but from what I see in the forums people say that PvP needs entirely different setups and skills. So, they are entirely different modes. Of course, I cannot judge that since I do not PvP, and I'm annoyed that nice things are taken away from me because something outperforms in PvP.

LadyGP · September 18

Sets should have Battle Spirit enabled and disabled tool tip.

Easiest way. Not hard to implement. By default make them the same and then tweak as needed. (Azure blight).

katanagirl1 · September 18

I think they should at least investigate whether the complaints about a PvP class or skill are valid before nerfing stuff at least.

For example, NB cloak is easily countered by detect potions or revealing flare. No need to nerf the cloak skill and ruin it for PvE thieves because players don’t want to have to counter it in PvP.

I don’t have an NBs in PvP before anyone says anything either.

It’s like that one guy who posted on here that he wanted a frost warden and now that is the meta, and the one tank who wanted an arena so we all have to tank IA to get furnishing leads.

Ridiculous.

Rowjoh · September 18

Be careful what you wish for.

I for one love that you can do stuff in PVE that builds towards PVP, and the game is in a pretty good place right now - not perfect by any means and there's always room for improvement - but its been a while since the years of nonsensical and extreme balance issues and the outcries.

Just enjoy the game for what it is

Blackbird_V · September 18

Aggrovious wrote: »

Oh this is a cool, let me just farm this...NERF! OR NOTHING!

Granted, the official reason is pyrebrand is out parsing Relequen supposedly, but that's a bad reason to nerf it when it was just added if thats the case.

I think that's an absolutely valid argument. New sets can and in some cases should be better than sets from older content. Pyrebrand definitely needs a nerf, but on this level it's too much. Allow Pyrebrand to crit again, or don't go for the -18% damage reduction on the proc. Heavy-handed nerf. The AoE portion of Pyrebrand is awful, and the fact it consumes dots for a bit of extra damage is really bad. The heavy attack portion of this set is really bad and 5% won't save it.

Zodiarkslayer · September 18

@Aggrovious I have been saying that for years. "Seperate PvP from PvE. Or it will ruin both in the long run."

But nobody at ZOS will ever do that, let alone listen to the argument. They'd rather risk ruining the entire game, than facing this head on.

This is something that enrages me everytime it comes up.

Their so called balancing has such a bad track record, that I don't understand why they still insist on trying. Every fix over the last five years (which is for how long I have been playing) has either created a new problem or a new exploit. Or both.
I think ZOS should at least acknowledge that. It's the nature of PvP. Finding a new exploit to get an edge over the other players. This will never change.

ESO has become a PVE game over the last 10 years. Face it ZOS!

Vaqual · September 18

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

It is mathematically absolutely doable to provide balancing that fits both modes. Players expecting more OP stuff based on existing OP stuff doesn't mean that more things need to be OP.
PvE doesn't need any more power creep. Most things can easily take a hit to account for PvP issues and content would still be clearable.
Seamless transitions between PvE and PvP are ideal to me.

But why should PvErs get a hit because of a basically separate game mode with its own rules and distinct issues? Seems to me that it would be logical to separate the two so no one will have to complain about the changes made because of the other mode.

Because the power isn't needed in PvE and a detriment to the game in PvP. Adjusting that is a victimless crime.

I disagree. If something is not right in PvE then it should be adjusted considering PvE only, not another unrelated game mode. Especially since we already have battle spirit and items that specifically say "monsters only". If you look at the PTS forum, most of the complaints and nerf requests are from the PvP side of the game. So, may be if more stuff was tied to battle spirit/players vs monsters then we would have a lot less resentment overall without the need to take nice things from other players.

I personally find it annoying when sets have benefits or conditions that are not applicable for either game mode. I want my characters to be able to swap between modes without reworking their identity. This seems almost exclusively problematic for high performing sets and abilities. And I will not be convinced that PvE is suffering from most of the tweaks that are happening. People are parsing consistently higher every year.

It's not the people that parse high are affected usually. It's those in the middle that try to dabble in slightly more advanced content (IMHO).
I'm not sure what you mean by "without reworking identity", but from what I see in the forums people say that PvP needs entirely different setups and skills. So, they are entirely different modes. Of course, I cannot judge that since I do not PvP, and I'm annoyed that nice things are taken away from me because something outperforms in PvP.

By that I mean, that I'd be very annoyed if a toon comes out of a PvP zone and all the sets now have a "against players" or "while battlespirit is active" clause attached to them and I end up wearing blanks (same goes for "monsters only"). I avoid sets that come with those stipulations already, I certainly do not want more of those. If they manage to put enough complexity into those set bonuses to make them work differently, but sufficiently in either mode that is a different story, but it is mostly all or nothing.
Mediocre people do not need any additional power to clear PvE content, there is enough power easily available on sets that are not considered outlier-performers. People have to stop crying about clearly overpowered tools whenever they get nerfed. Power creep either invalidates older sets, older content or just flat out breaks current content. This isn't something that is worth being protected.

ThoraxtheDark · September 18

Aggrovious wrote: »

Oh this is a cool, let me just farm this...NERF! OR NOTHING!

Something is discussed as really OP in PVP so its changed and it actually hurts PVE more. Azureblight, Artic Blast (?), Frozen Gate, Ironblood, Plaguebreaker, Nightblade protentional nerfs (pending PTS), Necro's harmony gone, etc. I want to bring it to the ZOS attention that changing something because a PVP player complains about how OP it is to their ball group is also inversely changing PVE. PVE is very much a required part of this game and there are plenty of people like myself who just want gear to solo bosses and theory craft. It becomes more difficult to do this when mythics, overland, dungeon, and (maybe) class sets are getting nerfed with no usability. Yes, its very ridiculous to nerf a class set when infinite archive is astronomically long to begin with and now pyrebrand is on the chopping block. Granted, the official reason is pyrebrand is out parsing Relequen supposedly, but that's a bad reason to nerf it when it was just added if thats the case.

Why is it that ZOS never listens to PVP! I think they do actually, because I see alot of things being changed solely on the forum suggestions...

My suggestions to correct these serious combability issues are:
Separate PVP and PVE. They are not and will never be the same game. Its time to fully separate them and update battle spirit. Battle spirit's adjustments are to optimize and balance PVP more. Everything else stays the same to an extent.

Give PVP its own server and give them an update. Cyrodiil should be redesigned with optimization in mind. PVE will then continue on its current server. Two servers that you should be allowed to move your character to and from for the purpose of gear. Also, it would be cool if a fourth alliance is added such as a the Daedric forces to encourage balance and meaningful gameplay. So instead of 2v1 its 2v2s.

Delete Cyrodiil and Imperial City. PVP is now open world. If Cyrodiil is causing a lot of server space and you don't want to update it, then maybe delete it?

What do I hope to gain from this post? To spread awareness to ZOS and have more viable options to use in PVE. My friend told me to not take PVE seriously because players that do get frustrated and quit. Well, he is talking about all of the PVP changes that hit PVE way harder.

I welcome anyone to break this post down and discuss any of these suggestions. Most of these were suggestions I have read in zone chats or came up with on the fly.

This has been an issue for over 10 years. If they had the capabilities to make changes by now, they would have. Enjoy what you can with this engine because it is what is is lol

Aggrovious · September 18

Rowjoh wrote: »

Be careful what you wish for.

I for one love that you can do stuff in PVE that builds towards PVP, and the game is in a pretty good place right now - not perfect by any means and there's always room for improvement - but its been a while since the years of nonsensical and extreme balance issues and the outcries.

Just enjoy the game for what it is

This post aims at doing just that. Improve the game. If PVP post get ZOS to make changes, why can't posts like these?

I still very much want to use a PVE solo character and try it in PVP. I like having options and if it sucks, it sucks. The damage monster only sets can be limiting and that is not what I am asking for. Battle spirit can be adjusted to apply the balances. Its just insane how powerful these nerf PVP post are that ZOS implements them almost immediately. Maybe I need to tag video clips to change their mind......

Aggrovious · September 18

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

@Aggrovious I have been saying that for years. "Seperate PvP from PvE. Or it will ruin both in the long run."

But nobody at ZOS will ever do that, let alone listen to the argument. They'd rather risk ruining the entire game, than facing this head on.

This is something that enrages me everytime it comes up.

Their so called balancing has such a bad track record, that I don't understand why they still insist on trying. Every fix over the last five years (which is for how long I have been playing) has either created a new problem or a new exploit. Or both.
I think ZOS should at least acknowledge that. It's the nature of PvP. Finding a new exploit to get an edge over the other players. This will never change.

ESO has become a PVE game over the last 10 years. Face it ZOS!

Know you are not alone in this fight. This game isn't New World. Its a MMO that has you quest until level 10 before you can PVP or do dungeons. Why are they adding new zones every few months if this is a PVP dominant game?

Yes, I see your logic and I hope @ZOS_Kevin can go over this post with his team. We need fair balancing, please.

Castagere · September 18

I only PVE and had a full set of Plaguebreak and loved it in PvE. I even made it a gold set. Then the surprise nerf in PvE for it hit. I will never again make any armor gold in this game. I lost a lot of gold on that set. I deconstructed the whole set and called it a lesson learned. In ESO ZOS could change any gear set without warning. And the more you brag about a set on the forums is taking a big chance because that's what happened with Plaguebreak.