Seraphayel wrote: »Where exactly does Mora even drastically revolves around its patron ability? It really does not. Orgnum though is the worst offender.
spartaxoxo wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Where exactly does Mora even drastically revolves around its patron ability? It really does not. Orgnum though is the worst offender.
Patron is another name for the name of the deck. Mora warps the entire game around it.
Seraphayel wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Where exactly does Mora even drastically revolves around its patron ability? It really does not. Orgnum though is the worst offender.
Patron is another name for the name of the deck. Mora warps the entire game around it.
Ah, I thought it was about the patron ability. I mean there are decks that function solo well and there are decks that don’t. Mora is one of the former, so I don’t know what’s really surprising here. Same with Crow. That deck gives you everything without any backlashes or disadvantages. It‘s funny that no one mentioned it earlier, but as soon as Crow is picked it‘s basically mandatory to play it so your opponent doesn’t get like 3 or more purple cards, otherwise it‘s over.
spartaxoxo wrote: »I don't play Crow against Crow and have a high win rate against it. Also, there's already a thread about Crow. Other decks are problems too.
Crow needs hlallu, red eagle, or Psijic to work well. It doesn't do that much on its own.
Seraphayel wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »I don't play Crow against Crow and have a high win rate against it. Also, there's already a thread about Crow. Other decks are problems too.
Crow needs hlallu, red eagle, or Psijic to work well. It doesn't do that much on its own.
I hope you’re joking. Crow is fully functioning by itself alone as it does everything. There are cards for coins, there are cards for power, there are agents and then on top of that those cards also let you draw additional cards. Crow is the only deck that does all of that at an absurd rate past a certain threshold of purple cards is reached.
It doesn’t need any support deck to properly function. Red Eagle just makes it more broken. Not saying there aren’t other decks that function properly by themselves alone (Mora), but Crow is definitely top tier in everything.
And yes, there‘s already a thread for Crow and other decks are problematic too, but not talking about Crow when talking about problematic decks is a bit disingenuous. Yes, you can easily sweep a win with Mora, but at the same time you can turn that win into a fast loss. Crow never puts you at a disadvantage.
Yes, Mora can be problematic, like a lot if you’re unlucky. Crow is problematic as soon a certain threshold of purple cards is reached. I just lost two matches in a row due to (for me) terrible Mora RNG, but it never feels as dull as losing to endless Crow chains.
(Enough of my Crow rant, sorry)
This was one of those Mora situations where I lost by the way. Frustrating? Yes, absolutely.
spartaxoxo wrote: »This is why I consider these two decks to be the two lowest skill decks in the game, bar none. They aren't just powerful to play all on their own, but the entire game warps around them in a way that isn't as extreme with any other deck. Pelin is a close offender as well, but not as outrageous as these two.
El_Borracho wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »This is why I consider these two decks to be the two lowest skill decks in the game, bar none. They aren't just powerful to play all on their own, but the entire game warps around them in a way that isn't as extreme with any other deck. Pelin is a close offender as well, but not as outrageous as these two.
Agree on Orgnum, and to a lesser extent on Mora. Still think Crow is the lowest skill deck. "See Crow, get Crow, eliminate coin cards."
spartaxoxo wrote: »El_Borracho wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »This is why I consider these two decks to be the two lowest skill decks in the game, bar none. They aren't just powerful to play all on their own, but the entire game warps around them in a way that isn't as extreme with any other deck. Pelin is a close offender as well, but not as outrageous as these two.
Agree on Orgnum, and to a lesser extent on Mora. Still think Crow is the lowest skill deck. "See Crow, get Crow, eliminate coin cards."
"Get rid of coin cards" requires cards outside of the Crow deck and requires understanding of how to use different decks in a way that is supportive to your main deck. It's not an idea that requires a ton of skill, but requiring multiple decks ensures a lot of ability for counterplay and also means that there is a greater variety of strats to make crow work. The game plays out in different ways and there are more options available to your opponent as well.
Orgnum and Mora don't even require that and are fairly one note. Spam the patron or buy that same patron's cards. Power rush. That's it.
Personofsecrets wrote: »Mora is quite literally the thing that people pick when the decide that they don't want to play TOT.
Maybe TOT was a mistake since so many people want to "play" Mora.
spartaxoxo wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »Mora is quite literally the thing that people pick when the decide that they don't want to play TOT.
Maybe TOT was a mistake since so many people want to "play" Mora.
Power rush "strategies" are the biggest sources of RNG victories in the game and Mora is by far the worst offender.
Seraphayel wrote: »Why‘s that a problem? The faster a match is over, the better. Rather a short suffering than a match that drags on forever.
spartaxoxo wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Why‘s that a problem? The faster a match is over, the better. Rather a short suffering than a match that drags on forever.
The longer a match, the more likely RNG is to even out and the more opportunities for counterplay, resulting in outcomes being less RNG driven. RNG will always play a factor because it's a card game, but it can play less of one with more opportunity for counterplay. The decks that aren't power rush therefore have more room for skill expression.
Seraphayel wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Why‘s that a problem? The faster a match is over, the better. Rather a short suffering than a match that drags on forever.
The longer a match, the more likely RNG is to even out and the more opportunities for counterplay, resulting in outcomes being less RNG driven. RNG will always play a factor because it's a card game, but it can play less of one with more opportunity for counterplay. The decks that aren't power rush therefore have more room for skill expression.
I‘m pretty sure that’s not how RNG works at all. If RNG wrecked you early on, you‘re never ever going to catch up. There‘s no counterplay if you got one card in several rounds while the opponent got 3 or 4 or even more. You simply can’t come back from that. RNG needs to even out early on or the match is so one sided that only some broken RNG wizardry can give you a win (like patron wins with two Tithes in the tavern).
The only two decks that can make a match one-sided very quickly are Crow and Mora. Maybe Hlaalu if you get lucky with Luxury Exports early on and can buy the entire tavern while your opponent has no real options until creating Writ after Writ.
Seraphayel wrote: »Why‘s that a problem? The faster a match is over, the better. Rather a short suffering than a match that drags on forever.
Seraphayel wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Why‘s that a problem? The faster a match is over, the better. Rather a short suffering than a match that drags on forever.
The longer a match, the more likely RNG is to even out and the more opportunities for counterplay, resulting in outcomes being less RNG driven. RNG will always play a factor because it's a card game, but it can play less of one with more opportunity for counterplay. The decks that aren't power rush therefore have more room for skill expression.
I‘m pretty sure that’s not how RNG works at all.
spartaxoxo wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Why‘s that a problem? The faster a match is over, the better. Rather a short suffering than a match that drags on forever.
The longer a match, the more likely RNG is to even out and the more opportunities for counterplay, resulting in outcomes being less RNG driven. RNG will always play a factor because it's a card game, but it can play less of one with more opportunity for counterplay. The decks that aren't power rush therefore have more room for skill expression.
I‘m pretty sure that’s not how RNG works at all.
It is absolutely how RNG works. The more times you a roll a dice, the more likely you are to get a particular side.
Take a normal 6-sided dice. Let's say you want to a roll a dice. Every roll has 1 in 6 odds that the number will be 5. But the odds that 5 won't appear at all decreases the more times you roll it.
So after 3 rolls it would be
(5/6)^3 the odds you didn't get a 5 on any of those rolls would be roughly 58%
After 25 rolls it would be
(5/6)^25 the odds you didn't get a 5 on any of those rolls would be roughly 1%
A dramatic difference in the terms of lucky rolls.
The longer the match goes on, the easier it is for both players to have assembled a good deck.
In fast games, you have less pulls, and thus less opportunity for recovery. This is one reason I prefer the slower decks. I am much more likely to be to turn a game with skill and recover from poor early start. Not because the system is favoring me or anything, but more pulls with the bad cards thinning out, means more opportunities for me to get good ones.
Seraphayel wrote: »I‘m not entirely sure what you’ve explained is correct. There‘s always the same chance to roll a specific number with a die and that specific chance does not change in regards to how often you roll it. It’s always 1/6 as the odds are always the same (if it‘s a 6-sided die). They only change when you start to remove the numbers you’ve already rolled.
And I’m not even sure what this does mean in regards to ToT. If the RNG benefitted your opponent in the first three rounds, you‘re not equal just because RNG now evens out and benefits you in the next three rounds.
Seraphayel wrote: »In over a thousand ranked games I’ve played, those comebacks you’re speaking of are basically an insignificant number when RNG continues to mess you up not just in the first round. I‘m not doubting any percentages or chances, I‘m doubting that it matters for ToT based on how ToT in general works. If both players had already set decks, I totally can see this happening. But in regards to on how many layers on layers of RNG it‘s build, I doubt it in practice. On paper? Definitely.
Seraphayel wrote: »In over a thousand ranked games I’ve played, those comebacks you’re speaking of are basically an insignificant number when RNG continues to mess you up not just in the first round. I‘m not doubting any percentages or chances, I‘m doubting that it matters for ToT based on how ToT in general works. If both players had already set decks, I totally can see this happening. But in regards to on how many layers on layers of RNG it‘s build, I doubt it in practice. On paper? Definitely.