Someone's gotta think this is a good idea, or I'm never gonna make it as a game designer. lol maybe I didn't explain it clear enough.

Aimeryan wrote: »

I see you where you are going, but it is just seems like an awkward way of trying to solve a "problem" that is either not meant to be solved or is very easy to solve if it is. The "problem" is actually two distinct problems, one which is likely a bug/bad coding that leads to frustration, while the other is a design choice that may be fine if not for the former problem.

There are 10 skills, 5 per bar. The bars under certain circumstances switch very quickly (0.5 seconds). So, under certain circumstances you have access to 10 skills within 0.5 seconds of being able to validly use a skill on a bar (you obviously can not use any skill while currently using another skill, regardless of whether it is on the current bar or the other).

The first problem here is to do with the "certain circumstances" in the above paragraph. The weapon swap (the method of accessing the other bar) will refuse to queue under some conditions, but will do so under others. I can only assume this is either bad coding or a bug. It basically leads to frustration of the game not responding in an intuitive and easy manner.

The second problem is the design choice problem. Assuming the problem above is fixed, you would always have access to the 10 skills within 0.5 seconds of valid access to any skill on either bar - i.e., if the skill is on the other bar and you can currently use a skill, it would only take 0.5 seconds longer (the length of the weapon swap) to use a skill on the other bar than using a skill on the current bar.

There are people, somewhat myself included, that don't want any delay in the use of any of the 10 skills - i.e., those people essentially don't want the skills tied to the weapon swap (it doesn't really make any sense), or they want the weapon swap to be instant (not a fan of this). However, it is up to the developers if they wish to do that.

TL;DR - we already have 10 skills, however, we need the method of accessing them (the weapon swap) to work correctly and easily. After that, well maybe people would still want to look at the issue of skill slot numbers and instant access, maybe they wont.

The problem with weapon swap is well it involves 2 sets of weapons, you may want access to a variety of dual wield skills but still want to use a bow, or staff, or 1hs, with the weapon swap and access to 10 skills you'd have to run the same 2 weapon types when you swap so dual weapons in both weapon slots which can get expensive or time consuming, this would be cost free, instant, and doesn't allow for 10 skills all at once, this just allows you to swap individual slots with an alternative 'favorite' skill, and I don't see how this is awkward in anyway unless you possess the inability to use shift and 1-5 keys at the same time, this allows you to use the same weapon set and access 10 of your favorite skills without having to open up the skill screen and manually drag and drop each skill into their slots and you can do this in combat and you don't have to carry around 2 sets of the same weapon type. With the example in the first post, we have to run the 1-5 skills and shift 1-5 skills on two separate bars and use dual wield weapons in both weapon slots, with this you just need the 1 set of dual wield weapons, and you can have whatever you like as you other weapon. I believe this makes both parties happy, you're still restricted to 5 skills at a time, but have easy access to an alternative 5.

I like the "deck building" approach in mmo's. Give us only 5 slots but have a number of builds preset to use at push of a button. I personally think that this is something we will prob see in ESO eventually. Just like you always see dual/multi spec show up in mmo's in time. I like your idea but think you should def have to unlock more as you level.
ie: lvl10 2 builds / lvl 30 3 builds / lvl 50 4 builds / vet 10 5 builds
have it cost gold also ... maybe even skill points IDK

Badh0rse wrote: »

I like the "deck building" approach in mmo's. Give us only 5 slots but have a number of builds preset to use at push of a button. I personally think that this is something we will prob see in ESO eventually. Just like you always see dual/multi spec show up in mmo's in time. I like your idea but think you should def have to unlock more as you level.
ie: lvl10 2 builds / lvl 30 3 builds / lvl 50 4 builds / vet 10 5 builds
have it cost gold also ... maybe even skill points IDK

Well that's not quite what I was going for, that deck building aspect is already here in the form of weapon swap, my suggestion is just to add 5 alternative skills to both your bars through the use of the shift 1-5 combination to swap out an individual skill on your bar for a different preferred skill in the heat of combat without having to swap to a different weapon set while keeping your skill set limited to to 5 at a time, but the ability to adjust your 'deck' over the course of a fight as new situations arise.

You are trying to solve a "problem" that is a core mechanic of the game design. You are basically trying to work around a designed limitation, that was built that way for a reason. Good luck.

The chose to have it work this way so you specifically could not do what you are proposing, I do not see them making such a fundamental change.

I do see the possibility of them adding additional swap groups in the future.

huntgod_ESO wrote: »

You are trying to solve a "problem" that is a core mechanic of the game design. You are basically trying to work around a designed limitation, that was built that way for a reason. Good luck.

The chose to have it work this way so you specifically could not do what you are proposing, I do not see them making such a fundamental change.

I do see the possibility of them adding additional swap groups in the future.

Oh so they built it this way specifically so players lack versatility, utility, aoe, and the ability to make use of our skills in combat when they matter most? I think the restriction is there so you have to think about what 5 skills you want to use at a time, that aspect is still there, you can still only use 5 buttons at a time, this is not a fundamental change, a fundamental change would be adding 5 new skill slots and letting us use 10 at time, this is 5 at time that you can swap out for more versatility, utility and variation during a fight, which seems much more enjoyable imho then being locked down to 5 boring skills, a toggle, 2 buffs/debuffs, a cc and only having room on my bar for 2 damaging skills.

steven.flemingub17_ESO wrote: »

ArgonianAssassin wrote: »

huntgod_ESO wrote: »

You are trying to solve a "problem" that is a core mechanic of the game design. You are basically trying to work around a designed limitation, that was built that way for a reason. Good luck.

The chose to have it work this way so you specifically could not do what you are proposing, I do not see them making such a fundamental change.

I do see the possibility of them adding additional swap groups in the future.

Oh so they built it this way specifically so players lack versatility, utility, aoe, and the ability to make use of our skills in combat when they matter most? I think the restriction is there so you have to think about what 5 skills you want to use at a time, that aspect is still there, you can still only use 5 buttons at a time, this is not a fundamental change, a fundamental change would be adding 5 new skill slots and letting us use 10 at time, this is 5 at time that you can swap out for more versatility, utility and variation during a fight, which seems much more enjoyable imho then being locked down to 5 boring skills, a toggle, 2 buffs/debuffs, a cc and only having room on my bar for 2 damaging skills.

I'm not sure you see what he is saying with the additional swaps. Additional swaps would basically be the same as your shift+x idea, but likely easier to implement. If you had 4 swaps you would have 20 slots available (going from your example which was using only skill slots), which is kinda the same as what are proposing, only you don't have to first swap, then shift+x to make the skill active. The other advantage of more swap groups is that you get to use a different weapon per swap. So instead of being limited to 2h dps on one, and staff aoe on another, you could also have a sword\board tank swap, and a resto staff healing swap, and so on.

I suppose you could see more weapon swaps as a pro but I see it as a con, oh I just unlocked a 3rd weapon set, guess it's time to go hunting for some new gear, or to go find some mats to make myself a new weapon or I'm missing out on 5 extra skills. I don't think I said anything about first having to swap a skill then pressing shift-x to make it active, you would just drop it into it's slot then press shift-x to swap out that skill maybe that's what you meant and I'm misinterpreting, no different to weapon swapping except that you're just swapping a single skill rather then your weapon + whole bar. In fact I think it'd be preferable to just combine these idea, more weapon sets AND skill swapping, now you get a whole much variety of builds and tactics on the battle field.

steven.flemingub17_ESO wrote: »

I don't think I said anything about first having to swap a skill then pressing shift-x to make it active, you would just drop it into it's slot then press shift-x to swap out that skill maybe that's what you meant and I'm misinterpreting

I was going off your OP and using an example of when you had to get to an inactive but currently slotted skill on a different swap group. Within each group you said you could shift+x to change out a particular skill and turn the current one inactive and the other one active. You also said 20 slots total using the current 2 groups allowed. So using that idea and mechanic, lets say my set up has the group 2 bar with the first skill slot currently slotted with Spiked Armor and shift+1 to make Green dragon blood active instead. If I'm currently on my group 1 bar, and I need to get to Green dragon blood, I have to first swap to group 2, then shift+1 to make GDB active instead of Spiked Armor. This assumes I don't have GDB in the active slot of either group1 or group 2 skill slot. If I am not fully understanding your idea then I apologize, but that's how I'm currently reading it.

The alternative that was proposed was more groups. So to perform the same thing as mentioned above, I would need 3 groups. Group 2 would have Ardent Flame in the first slot, and group 3 would have GDB in the first slot. If I am currently in group 1, I just switch to group 3 directly to get access to GDB. No need to shift+x to make something active. To be comparable to your proposal to have 20 slots potentially available however, I would need 4 groups. Does that make sense?

I suppose you could see more weapon swaps as a pro but I see it as a con, oh I just unlocked a 3rd weapon set, guess it's time to go hunting for some new gear, or to go find some mats to make myself a new weapon or I'm missing out on 5 extra skills

I can kind of see what you mean. Yes, each new swap group has to have a different weapon. It can't be the exact same weapon being reused. You idea does have the merit of being able to use the exact same weapon with up to 10 skills with only 5 active. As opposed to a whole new swap bar and weapon with 5 active.

I think a good approach would be to have up to 10 different swap bar groups (can assign and switch between them anytime by using the shift+x approach), and you have the option to have the same weapon slotted in any of those groups. That way you have total freedom to create any kind of combination you want with whatever weapon you want. Some people might want to create a dozen groups. Some might want only 1. It's totally up to the player to decide works for them and fits more into the "play your way" theme.

Okay it took quite a few read through's to fully understand what you're saying but I think I've got it now, what you suggest is building multiple decks rather than swapping a single card in your deck, so in order to get GDB you would have to swap out your entire bar for that one skill, or swap out to group 2 just for Ardent Flame but changing every skill to the group 2 alternative right? Instead of using shift-x and swapping out a single skill and leaving the others unchanged as I suggest?

Well I suppose you could unlock multiple groups with my idea and the use of shift-x would cycle through other potential alternative skills, so in slot one you'd have Spiked Armor, activating again would swap to GDB, activating once again would swap to Immovable and so on eventually cycling back to Spiked Armor, though I suggest some limitations like only a maximum of 2 alternatives per slot and the alternative cannot be a skill already on your active bar, this way you don't end up cycling through your entire skill set with 1 button.

But yeah, if on weapon swap 1 in slot 1 you have spiked armor and it's alternative is GDB, and you are on weapon swap 2 and don't have GDB on your bar, you would have to switch to weapon swap 1 to gain access to it through shift-1 of Spiked Armor unless on weapon swap 2 slot 1 you have Ransack on and if you wanted to, you could set up GDB to be the alternative as that skill as well, and with my later suggestion you could activate shift-1 again to swap Ransack out for GDB then swap it out again for Spiked Armor. I personally would prefer that to swapping out every skill on my bar. With your suggestion of multiple swap groups you could potentially have access to every single one of your skills that you've unlocked and if that's the case why not just give us WoW style action bars with access to every skill up and down the sides and cut out the middle man, my suggestion would allow just as great a variety of builds while still imposing some limitations while it seems clunky to me that in order to get to your swap group 10 you'd have to stretch your hand from shift-1 or shift-= and that seems, inconvenient, and how do you slot those other 8 weapons? It already seems odd to pull an extra weapon set out of my arse, it'd seem even weirder to pull out 8 different weapon sets from my arse.

I suppose this suggestion works better under the assumption you're using your weapon swaps to perform a different role rather gain access to more abilities for your preferred role. Like I personally, on my Nightblade tank, run a S&B for tanking and single target, and use a bow as my weapon swap for AOE's and CC's, and just general long range DPS.

steven.flemingub17_ESO wrote: »

Okay it took quite a few read through's to fully understand what you're saying but I think I've got it now, what you suggest is building multiple decks rather than swapping a single card in your deck, so in order to get GDB you would have to swap out your entire bar for that one skill, or swap out to group 2 just for Ardent Flame but changing every skill to the group 2 alternative right? Instead of using shift-x and swapping out a single skill and leaving the others unchanged as I suggest?

Yes that's what I'm suggesting. This does allow for unlimited combinations with any weapon, including the same weapon. Nothing wrong with your idea either. You have 2 decks (bars), and not allowing the same weapon to be used in a different swap, and 10 max skill combinations per weapon. Again, the only time things are an issue is when you have to swap from bar 1 to bar 2 and do a shift to get to something that is not slotted anywhere else.

With your suggestion of multiple swap groups you could potentially have access to every single one of your skills that you've unlocked and if that's the case why not just give us WoW style action bars with access to every skill up and down the sides and cut out the middle man

The difference is you can only have one bar "active" at a time and only 5 skills available on that bar active at a time. Wow let you access all the skills you unlocked at the same time. Those are two very different things.

it seems clunky to me that in order to get to your swap group 10 you'd have to stretch your hand from shift-1 or shift-= and that seems, inconvenient

I agree that someone that actually wants to map the 10th swap to shift+0 would be asking for carpal tunnel syndrome. But who says it has to be that mapping? I just said you could, not that you had to. Let them map to whatever key combo work for them. Personally I don't think I'd ever want to go beyond 4 bars that I would switch between, but some people may want to get more crazy.

and how do you slot those other 8 weapons? It already seems odd to pull an extra weapon set out of my arse, it'd seem even weirder to pull out 8 different weapon sets from my arse.

As opposed to somehow being able to carry 80 extra battle axes that were looted off mobs in a backpack no bigger than your arse? If you're going to start down the path of what's realistic or not the entire game is going to come crashing down I'm afraid. And just because you can have 8 different weapons in 8 different groups doesn't mean you should. Like I said in my suggestion you can have the same weapon used in different groups. So I could have my 2hnd sword with 5 dps skills in group 1. And could have the SAME 2hnd sword but with different aoe skills in group 2, etc. There is no reason why I couldn't stick with one weapon and make 8 groups just around it.

I'm not totally thrilled with the limits eso has put on the whole skill and class system in general, but I don't hate it either. I'm just trying to provide some alternatives. I'm glad you made a suggestion and I like where you are going. If eso said changing the UI so it worked like you suggested would happen, I would be totally fine with it since it would be an improvement. I was simply trying to go a bit further.

Okay yeah after your elaboration I suppose I could get behind your idea, and mind you I was against the idea of the inventory system we have here, I was for the Skyrim style carry weight system. And it still seems odd to me to be pulling my bow and S&B from nowhere, wasn't going for the realism approach just that it seems odd. My issue was more with clutter for someone who WANTS 8 different weapons how do you consolidate that? I don't see much difference between access to 10 skill bars at once, and 10 skill bars one at a time that could be switched between as easily as pressing a button(You know, as easily as 0.5 seconds when Zeni finally fixes weapon swapping and making it more responsive.) but that's my personal opinion, maybe I'd feel differently after seeing it implemented in game.

Just my personal opinion on this: I think the 5 skill limitation/weapon swap "feature" was part of the minimalist UI intention of the game. In that sense, they have succeeded.

As the main feature of the UI, they have failed miserably. I hate it, and it seems a lot of others do as well. We're used to having double this amount of skills available to us at all times, so to go down to just 5 and a hot swap is a very stark contrast.

I've been able to make mine work well, thanks to macros w/ a Razer Naga. Like most others, I have AoE tied to a 2H sword on one bar, and single target/1H+Shield on the other. Not ideal, but it's about the best we can do with this wonky system. I would like to see all 10 available at all times, and have weapon swap be stand-a-lone.

FWIW, I'm not overly fond of the Q interface either.

ArgonianAssassin wrote: »

...but back to my original idea for skills, what's your opinion on that? I suppose you'd rather just have all 10 available on your bar at once...

Yeah, I would rather have all 10 available at once.