Barbed Trap vs. Warden Bull/Betty Netch 5%

DigiAngel · June 4

Topic. I have a Lightening Sergeants Heavy Attack Oakensoul Warden build that has two things that require close combat:

Noble Duelist
Barbed Trap

But sometimes ranged is the order of the day....so I got to thinking with the change, maybe slotting:

Bull Netch
Deadly Strike

Might be good for pure ranged? Anyone try this out? Thank you.

El_Borracho · June 4

You don't need Bull Netch for Major Brutality or Trap for Minor Force because both are included in the Oakensoul Ring. You could do what some do and LA/HA in melee range and move back. You have 15 seconds. Or switch to Deadly. In some situations, it can be just as good if not better

Necrotech_Master · June 4

noble duelist isnt exactly compareable to deadly because noble buffs the heavy attack by a fixed amount, where deadly is a % increase

there are other options for heavy attack buffing that can allow staying ranged

might help to know what the rest of the build is to make a better decision lol

both trap and netch have buffs that an oakensoul doesnt need (barb gives minor force, which is provided by oaken/netch gives major brutality/sorcery which is also covered by oaken)

the netch would probably be easier to use as you just hit it, it also would give you a small heal and a cleanse, and you could use it to restore stats for your "off resource"

for example, since your a lightning staff build, you dont need the netch restoring magicka, you could have it restore stamina to help support other actions such as sprinting/dodging/cc breaks

DigiAngel · June 4

Thank you both. Ya I tried Deadly vs Noble and I didn't get as good of a dps. As I understand it, Barbed was used just for the Hemorrhage. I'll do some testing and report my findings thank you!

Necrotech_Master · June 4

the hemorrhage chance on barbed got dropped way down, so its not likely to re-proc before the status effect expires, and hemorrhaging is not worth it if you cant maintain 3 stacks (i think it only guarantees 1 stack of hemorrhage on the initial hit of trap but the rest of it has normal chance to proc the status effect)

so likely you could find a better dot to replace trap if that was your main goal

personally ive never liked the trap skill, it always felt weak to me lol

DigiAngel · June 4

Well here are the results:

Deadly with Barb

Deadly with Betty/Bull

Noble with Barb

Noble with Betty/Bull

All right behind the Atronoch, all using ult when available. Eh...honestly...I don't see much of a difference unless someone else has better eyes then I do?

yadibroz · June 5

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

the hemorrhage chance on barbed got dropped way down, so its not likely to re-proc before the status effect expires, and hemorrhaging is not worth it if you cant maintain 3 stacks (i think it only guarantees 1 stack of hemorrhage on the initial hit of trap but the rest of it has normal chance to proc the status effect)

so likely you could find a better dot to replace trap if that was your main goal

personally ive never liked the trap skill, it always felt weak to me lol

Barbed need to increase the radius

Necrotech_Master · June 5

DigiAngel wrote: »

Well here are the results:

All right behind the Atronoch, all using ult when available. Eh...honestly...I don't see much of a difference unless someone else has better eyes then I do?

you are right there is almost no difference

with deadly your losing a bit of avg dps (about 2k less than nobles) on the lightning attack heavy, but your making up for it with other sources of dmg since deadly affects all dots (which includes a part of the heavy), nobles makes the heavy attack stronger but thats the only thing its buffing

personally i think that nobles is a bit limiting, only buffing heavy attack and requiring melee range, so i would probably recommend the deadly set over that

seems kind of up to you on the trap or netch, though personally i dont like trap, and netch isnt as useful on an oaken build except for off resource sustain/purge

DigiAngel · June 5

Thank you. Yes...I haven't been able to find anything besides maybe Elemental Susceptibility for a long DOT...and even that was replacing arctic blast since arctic blast makes no impact at range. Maybe something in the Mages Guild kit...I'll keep digging and post my results.

Necrotech_Master · June 5

it might be better to replace arctic with polar wind, as its still incredibly useful for a heal

skill wise im guessing you would have wall of elements (to keep off balance and the dot, i prefer unstable wall morph)

from your parses already you have deep fissure and fetcher infection

screaming cliff racer is OK, but not ideal for a HA build because light and heavy attacks cap out on how much weapon/spell dmg they use for dealing dmg, the other morph adds the bleed but might be harder to sustain being stam

if you wanted another dot, i would probably do winters revenge, as that is a decent ground dot, as well as being able to proc chilled which is also strong on a warden

DigiAngel · June 5

Thank you much. No unstable wall surprisingly

Just the racer, fissure, fetcher, arctic blast and beast trap. Blissfully I have this build in the armory so I'll try and mess around tonight...just trying to get a solid ranged build down for dicey vet content.

DigiAngel · June 6

Good tip on the Cutting Racer...here's the moded build with noble, sergeants:

Necrotech_Master · June 6

the bleed on the cutting dive is pretty potent, about twice as effective as barbed trap and can be used from range lol

i would probably still recommend changing trap to either winters revenge, or unstable wall (winters revenge would be better i think if your not using an ice staff due to the high chill chance)

DigiAngel · June 6

Thank you much...I did try winters in a real trial...it was surprising how often the skill just failed to fire right after fissure. I'll give unstable a go later today and report my findings. I thought getting this detailed and doing this much testing would be a slog, but it's actually pretty enjoyable

Necrotech_Master · June 6

winters revenge was usually the first skill i would lay down, the only issue i had with it was you have to target location to drop it, so unless you have the option to auto cast on target, you have to hit the skill and then click to place it

i personally prefer unstable wall and winters revenge because its better aoe

and yeah, this is basically what theorycrafting is lol, i find it quite enjoyable too and have different experimental builds on several toons lol

DigiAngel · June 6

Ah...yea I'll try that first instead of laying down fissure. And yes..auto-cast on for speed. Updates to come for sure

DigiAngel · June 6

Well I landed on this using Deadly:

This was as "ranged" as I could get with the fissure range. DPS was lower with noble at close range. So...thank you...this will be my ranged build, but so far, noble + barbed + cutting racer win the day for closer ranged at 77K as shown above. I did notice that most skills queue properly and fire after the heavy attack, but winter I have to wait longer after starting a new heavy attack, otherwise it just simply doesn't fire. Thanks again...this has been very helpful.

Necrotech_Master · June 7

if winter is acting weird with your attack chain, you could try to switch to unstable wall and see if that makes a difference

it wont be able to proc chilled though if your on a lightning staff, but it can help proc concussed more (which does deal more dmg to enemies who are already concussed if you proc it in rapid succession)

it also has the advantage of being laid down instantly than using the targeting circle (which is why i think that doesnt "queue" properly)

DigiAngel · June 7

I actually had both going...unstable no problem, winter was the only funky one. Nice to finally land on a melee and range set

Necrotech_Master · June 7

yeah looking at your cmx again i see blockade of storms lol

personally i prefer unstable wall because the burst dmg from it happens at the end or upon recast even though its a slightly smaller area

the avg dps of the unstable wall is a bit higher than blockade, because the 5 extra ticks of dmg from blockade are still lower than the burst which applies at the 10 sec mark

so in terms of dps unstable is a bit better because it applies basically the same dmg in 10 sec vs 15 sec lol

DigiAngel · June 7

Ah..ok I was looking at the longer duration instead...I figured longer the better, but I'll give unstable a whirl tonight..I think I can afford the 800 gold morph fee

Necrotech_Master · June 7

it can be better if you like the better area and dont have to recast as much, but unstable wall with the way it works (exploding on recast or expire) effectively can turn it into a quick use aoe spammable (its not exactly cost efficient to do this but its effective for short bursts)

the other thing to note is if you are using a maelstrom destro, it buffs both the dot ticks and the burst of unstable wall

DigiAngel · June 7

Thanks...as it's an oaken build, just sergeants and noble/deadly, so not a lot of wiggle room. Will post comparisons later

BXR_Lonestar · June 11

DigiAngel wrote: »

Topic. I have a Lightening Sergeants Heavy Attack Oakensoul Warden build that has two things that require close combat:
Noble Duelist

Barbed Trap

But sometimes ranged is the order of the day....so I got to thinking with the change, maybe slotting:
Bull Netch

Deadly Strike

Might be good for pure ranged? Anyone try this out? Thank you.

Swap noble duelist out for Order's Wrath. I have mine crafted 4 piece medium, 1 piece light, with 1 piece Valkyn Skoria for my monster helm so I can get the minimum penetration needed and still be over 50% crit chance. This will allow you more flexibility in combat by not needing to be up close and personal, and this setup outdamages my seargant + storm master setup.

DigiAngel · June 16

Thank you...I'll give that a shot.

kyle.wilson · June 16

The new light set from Lucent Citadel should be able to beat orders wrath on that build.

The warden bees would be better than trap because you'll also get the passive 4% crit damage increase across the board.

Pelanora · June 17

The warden bees would be the bees knees!

kyle.wilson wrote: »

The warden bees would be better than trap because you'll also get the passive 4% crit damage increase across the board.