The general thought is Lucent Echoes wins in all the below cases:
1. The fight is mobile.
2. There's multiple targets.
3. You have enough vuln.
4. The EC cro can't maintain >85% uptimes on all 3 weaknesses at all times.

That said, sometimes it's nice to have an extra colo. In which case, make the cro run Alkosh. Free the zendk!

EC Cro?

CrashTest wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

EC Cro?

A Necromancer wearing the Elemental Catalyst (EC) set. It's a raiding thing.

Thank you

Trial-leaders want a setup which is most optimal for the best way to get a triple run, done.

Thus having the best possible outcome.

"Zenimax" has failed, when you exclude classes from the "optimal" setup meaning they don't bring anything worthwhile to the group...

Every class should have a unique named global aura affecting all party members.

Examples:

Templars wisdom
Wardens nature
Nightblades cunning
Dragon knights might
Sorcerer's insight
Necromancers touch
Arcanists knowledge

What they do or are named are up to Zenimax.
But make it enticing to have all classes instead of just stacking one...

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

Rasande_Robin wrote: »

Trial-leaders want a setup which is most optimal for the best way to get a triple run, done.

Thus having the best possible outcome.

"Zenimax" has failed, when you exclude classes from the "optimal" setup meaning they don't bring anything worthwhile to the group...

Every class should have a unique named global aura affecting all party members.

Examples:

Templars wisdom
Wardens nature
Nightblades cunning
Dragon knights might
Sorcerer's insight
Necromancers touch
Arcanists knowledge

What they do or are named are up to Zenimax.
But make it enticing to have all classes instead of just stacking one...

We had that in the past. Each class could bring unique minor buff and some had unique major buffs and debuffs (like necros major vulnerability). When I was starting doin trials few years ago it was very beneficial to include multiple classes of DDs in your roster.

But since then the "everyone should be able to access everything" approach started to dominate and most buffs and debuffs have multiple sources now (with very few exceptions). Class diversity is mostly irrelevant for group optimization, so the most efficient way is to stack as many parsers of the currently strongest class and source buffs and debuffs from sets.

Since major vuln got it's set, necros were run primarily for EC. Now EC will become much less popular, and so do necros. Especially after the recent nerf.

Can’t entirely blame ZOS for that, at least imo, because players have been sending in a ton of feedback about “this class needs X, this class should have Y.” And ZOS listens to feedback, especially in giant numbers. So despite whatever vision they had, they were kind of pushed to make adjustments.

You still have people, a lot, wanting necro to have major buffs like Sorcery and Savagery even though ZOS wants it to be a debuff class, and we also get those buffs from other places pretty easily.

Or, I might add that this would give DPS enough flexibility to not feel the NEED to run backstabber perk (or backstabber + fighting finesse), which may allow them to use a different champion point perk, like occult overload.

Basically, the more sources we have of getting a certain bonus gives us more options in group comp, champion point allocation, etc. Which I see as a good thing. And a 15% crit damage bonus from EC is huge, so I don't see it necessarily being rendered obsolete.

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

im not sure on the super high end meta, but one of the new sets introduced with the new trial, lucent echoes, could be used to replace EC with a tank wearing it, as its a constant always active 11% crit dmg buff (unless the tank dips under 50% hp, then it switches to give them dmg reduction)

my guess is that having a tank or support wear this set would give the whole team 11% crit dmg buff at all times, without needing an EC set in the group (which tops out at 15% crit dmg only if the user can maintain all 3 element EC debuffs)

Or both could be used to add an extra 26% Crit damage with a pretty high uptime, which means less reliance on war horns for support characters. Assuming the group is put together to maximize group crit damage, a DK tank could then use an ultimate like Magma Shell to survive a particularly difficult phase in a fight without loss of group DPS.

Healers could also slot in a healing ultimate or barrier to boost group survivability.

So IMO, this wouldn't necessarily make EC Cro's go out of style at all, it just depends on group composition and strategy.

yeah, as others notes though there is the hard cap on crit dmg

war horns also do more than just boost crit dmg, since they also increase max resources by 10%, which is not an insignificant buff either

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

Rasande_Robin wrote: »

Trial-leaders want a setup which is most optimal for the best way to get a triple run, done.

Thus having the best possible outcome.

"Zenimax" has failed, when you exclude classes from the "optimal" setup meaning they don't bring anything worthwhile to the group...

Every class should have a unique named global aura affecting all party members.

Examples:

Templars wisdom
Wardens nature
Nightblades cunning
Dragon knights might
Sorcerer's insight
Necromancers touch
Arcanists knowledge

What they do or are named are up to Zenimax.
But make it enticing to have all classes instead of just stacking one...

We had that in the past. Each class could bring unique minor buff and some had unique major buffs and debuffs (like necros major vulnerability). When I was starting doin trials few years ago it was very beneficial to include multiple classes of DDs in your roster.

But since then the "everyone should be able to access everything" approach started to dominate and most buffs and debuffs have multiple sources now (with very few exceptions). Class diversity is mostly irrelevant for group optimization, so the most efficient way is to stack as many parsers of the currently strongest class and source buffs and debuffs from sets.

Since major vuln got it's set, necros were run primarily for EC. Now EC will become much less popular, and so do necros. Especially after the recent nerf.

Can’t entirely blame ZOS for that, at least imo, because players have been sending in a ton of feedback about “this class needs X, this class should have Y.” And ZOS listens to feedback, especially in giant numbers. So despite whatever vision they had, they were kind of pushed to make adjustments.

You still have people, a lot, wanting necro to have major buffs like Sorcery and Savagery even though ZOS wants it to be a debuff class, and we also get those buffs from other places pretty easily.

Oh, of course I can

On a serious note though, we provide tons of feedback but ultimately it's zos who's making the decisions. And those decisions (and the reasonings behind them) is something that can and should be continuously discussed. The current state of necros is a very good example of a feedback that was not heard.

And when it comes to the major sorcery argument, it's not really about making necro more similar to other classess, but about making it less dependent on non-class skills to get some basic functionalities that other classess have build in.

Right now if you want to play dot based necro you need to supplement your toolkit with non-class dots.

If you want to play spammable based build, the spammables available in dual wield, fighters guild and even destro staff skill lines will be stronger than your class spammable.

The debuff/support dd playstyle, with lack of unique debuffs, was based on EC and now is being watered down.

And on top of that you don't even have a source of major sorcery xd
C'mon...

I just get the impression from some people I talk to and on here and other places that players think that giving Necro brutality/sorcery and savagery/prophecy will help them immensely and I disagree. ZOS seems like they are taking the slow approach with buffing Necro so we might get those buffs but if they don’t change or buff Skeletal minion, Boneyard, siphon and the spammable then it doesn’t matter, at least to me.

If that happens my Magcro is still going to use the sources of those buffs I have now. At least with Entropy I can control who that dot is on. Even NPC’s can easily avoid siphon and boneyard and with FG ability slotted or inner light I can save magicka with a passive ability on my bar since Magcro has sustain issues.

I don’t want to derail this too much but until ZOS does to Necro what they did to Sorc, which is a big overhaul in one update, doing changes over the span of a year or two will just hurt Necro’s. The death of EC Cro is the prime example.

I do agree that using non-class abilities should really be down to choice instead of “must”. However, I think people will be surprised if ZOS just gives necro those buffs and no other offensive changes, by the fact that it doesn’t help at all truly.

Heck, even Scribing gives me debuffs I feel Necro should have but meh. Thats another day. Plus, scribing so far is fun.

OtarTheMad wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

Rasande_Robin wrote: »

Trial-leaders want a setup which is most optimal for the best way to get a triple run, done.

Thus having the best possible outcome.

"Zenimax" has failed, when you exclude classes from the "optimal" setup meaning they don't bring anything worthwhile to the group...

Every class should have a unique named global aura affecting all party members.

Examples:

Templars wisdom
Wardens nature
Nightblades cunning
Dragon knights might
Sorcerer's insight
Necromancers touch
Arcanists knowledge

What they do or are named are up to Zenimax.
But make it enticing to have all classes instead of just stacking one...

We had that in the past. Each class could bring unique minor buff and some had unique major buffs and debuffs (like necros major vulnerability). When I was starting doin trials few years ago it was very beneficial to include multiple classes of DDs in your roster.

But since then the "everyone should be able to access everything" approach started to dominate and most buffs and debuffs have multiple sources now (with very few exceptions). Class diversity is mostly irrelevant for group optimization, so the most efficient way is to stack as many parsers of the currently strongest class and source buffs and debuffs from sets.

Since major vuln got it's set, necros were run primarily for EC. Now EC will become much less popular, and so do necros. Especially after the recent nerf.

Can’t entirely blame ZOS for that, at least imo, because players have been sending in a ton of feedback about “this class needs X, this class should have Y.” And ZOS listens to feedback, especially in giant numbers. So despite whatever vision they had, they were kind of pushed to make adjustments.

You still have people, a lot, wanting necro to have major buffs like Sorcery and Savagery even though ZOS wants it to be a debuff class, and we also get those buffs from other places pretty easily.

Oh, of course I can

On a serious note though, we provide tons of feedback but ultimately it's zos who's making the decisions. And those decisions (and the reasonings behind them) is something that can and should be continuously discussed. The current state of necros is a very good example of a feedback that was not heard.

And when it comes to the major sorcery argument, it's not really about making necro more similar to other classess, but about making it less dependent on non-class skills to get some basic functionalities that other classess have build in.

Right now if you want to play dot based necro you need to supplement your toolkit with non-class dots.

If you want to play spammable based build, the spammables available in dual wield, fighters guild and even destro staff skill lines will be stronger than your class spammable.

The debuff/support dd playstyle, with lack of unique debuffs, was based on EC and now is being watered down.

And on top of that you don't even have a source of major sorcery xd
C'mon...

I just get the impression from some people I talk to and on here and other places that players think that giving Necro brutality/sorcery and savagery/prophecy will help them immensely and I disagree. ZOS seems like they are taking the slow approach with buffing Necro so we might get those buffs but if they don’t change or buff Skeletal minion, Boneyard, siphon and the spammable then it doesn’t matter, at least to me.

If that happens my Magcro is still going to use the sources of those buffs I have now. At least with Entropy I can control who that dot is on. Even NPC’s can easily avoid siphon and boneyard and with FG ability slotted or inner light I can save magicka with a passive ability on my bar since Magcro has sustain issues.

I don’t want to derail this too much but until ZOS does to Necro what they did to Sorc, which is a big overhaul in one update, doing changes over the span of a year or two will just hurt Necro’s. The death of EC Cro is the prime example.

I do agree that using non-class abilities should really be down to choice instead of “must”. However, I think people will be surprised if ZOS just gives necro those buffs and no other offensive changes, by the fact that it doesn’t help at all truly.

Heck, even Scribing gives me debuffs I feel Necro should have but meh. Thats another day. Plus, scribing so far is fun.

I don't know about immensely, but if necros could use hero pots without the need to slot a very mediocre dot it would help with the damage. Specially in less organized groups. You'd be surprised to see how many tanks don't use Igneous.

And while it won't be much, it is a very low hanging fruit. Considering that the hope for getting some significant buffs is slim, sorcery feels like a request that might have a chance of being actually implemented.