If Necromancer was meant to be a debuff class, then they need more debuffs.

CameraBeardThePirate · May 29

In today's AMA, @ZOS_Gilliam mentioned that part of the balancing decision to give Necromancer the fewest Major/Minor buffs out of the cast was because they were meant to be a "debuff class".

We originally avoided adding too many "buffs" to the class, and went with more debuff options since it felt more thematically appropriate that the class enfeebled their foes rather than empowering themselves and allies - but I think some concessions could be made for the more impactful ones like Brutality/Sorcery/Prophecy/Savagery.

This makes sense thematically, however, it doesn't hold much merit when Necromancer doesn't have a lot of debuffs either. Out of all the classes:

Nightblade - 7 (or 8) Major/Minor debuffs, plus an unnamed % damage taken debuff from Incap
- Major Defile, Minor Vuln, Minor Breach (via guaranteed Sundered status), Major Breach, Major Cowardice, Minor Cowardice, Minor Maim, Minor Magickasteal (this one isn't quite guaranteed, but nearly guaranteed via Debilitate)

Warden - 7 (or 9) Major/Minor Debuffs
- Major Maim, Major Defile, Major Breach, Minor Breach, Minor Vuln, Minor Cowardice, Minor Lifesteal, Minor Maim (not quite guaranteed, though nearly guaranteed thanks to high uptime on Chilled), Minor Brittle (same as Minor Maim, so long as the Warden is using a Frost Staff)

Arcanist - 5 Major/Minor Debuffs, plus an unnamed 5% - 11% damage taken debuff from Flail/Dread
- Minor Breach, Minor Vuln, Minor Brittle, Minor Lifesteal, Minor Maim

Necro - 5 (or 6) Major/Minor Debuffs
- Major Defile, Minor Defile (guaranteed diseased status), Minor Maim, Major Breach, Major Vuln, Minor Vuln (although only via someone else activating a synergy)

Templar - 3 Major/Minor Debuffs
- Major Maim, Major Defile, Minor Breach (via guaranteed Sundered status)

DK - 3 Major/Minor Debuffs, plus an unnamed % flame damage taken debuff via Engulfing
- Major Defile, Major Breach, Minor Maim

Sorc - 1 (lol) Major/Minor debuff, with 1 unnamed armor debuff via Crystal Weapon
- Major Maim

TL;DR: Despite being firmly in the middle of the pack in regards to debuffing enemies Necromancer still has the fewest Major and Minor self buffs. This goes against what @ZOS_Gilliam stated in the AMA on Reddit today, and highlights a pretty big discrepancy in intended class balance and actual efficacy when it comes to Necromancer.

IncultaWolf · May 29

At the minimum necromancer needs major brutality/sorcery attached to the skeletal minion, and have the while slotted on either bar bonus.

Letting players self-activate the agony totem synergy would help the class out a lot, right now we can't apply the minor vulnerability without another player activating the synergy, if you play solo you're out of luck. They can already self activate graverobber, and this would also further give necromancers some class identity.

Always thought it was odd that nightblade was better at debuffing enemies than necromancer.

GrimStyx · May 29

It's actually funny, he doesn't have many reliable debuffs, and if he does have them, most of them are taken from the weapon trees. In addition, he does not even have his own major sorcery/brutality buff, which, in principle, should be included in all classes. If they really want to make him a debuff class, let them increase the duration of all debuffs by 4-6 seconds, in passive, it will at least make sense

IncultaWolf · May 29

Pre-release necromancer seemed to lean more into a debuff class, but they scrapped a lot of the ideas. Originally, scythe had heal absorption attached to it. Perhaps it's time to look into bringing this back?

BasP · May 29

I'm glad to read that "some concessions could be made for the more impactful ones like Brutality/Sorcery/Prophecy/Savagery" at least (as long as such buffs are added to useful skills, that is). But the fact that Necro's don't have a lot of debuffs either is a bit strange considering the vision of the devs.

CameraBeardThePirate · May 29

BasP wrote: »

I'm glad to read that "some concessions could be made for the more impactful ones like Brutality/Sorcery/Prophecy/Savagery" at least (as long as such buffs are added to useful skills, that is). But the fact that Necro's don't have a lot of debuffs either is a bit strange considering the vision of the devs.

Feels more like an excuse than anything. Necros aren't a particularly good debuff class. They have Major Vuln which is pretty big, and in PvP Blighted Blastbones is good to have on your team, but other than that, their main "debuffs" come from a set (Elemental Catalyst) and not their skills.

They're also supposedly a DoT class, yet they only have 2 DoTs + a DoT status effect.

There's a big separation between what the intended design of Necro is, and what Necro's identity is in actuality.

Galeriano2 · May 29

BasP wrote: »

I'm glad to read that "some concessions could be made for the more impactful ones like Brutality/Sorcery/Prophecy/Savagery" at least (as long as such buffs are added to useful skills, that is). But the fact that Necro's don't have a lot of debuffs either is a bit strange considering the vision of the devs.

To be honest necro at release was all about one debuff which was major vulnerability which back than was a 30% dmg taken debuff and necro was the only source of it in the game. That one thing was basically one of the main if not the main selling point of the Elsweyr chapter. Similarly to a arcanist many people did't even like the class especially that at release it was ultra cluncky but that vulnerability debuff was just too strong to pass by same as beam on arcanist is atm.

yadibroz · May 29

Galeriano2 wrote: »

BasP wrote: »

I'm glad to read that "some concessions could be made for the more impactful ones like Brutality/Sorcery/Prophecy/Savagery" at least (as long as such buffs are added to useful skills, that is). But the fact that Necro's don't have a lot of debuffs either is a bit strange considering the vision of the devs.

To be honest necro at release was all about one debuff which was major vulnerability which back than was a 30% dmg taken debuff and necro was the only source of it in the game. That one thing was basically one of the main if not the main selling point of the Elsweyr chapter. Similarly to a arcanist many people did't even like the class especially that at release it was ultra cluncky but that vulnerability debuff was just too strong to pass by same as beam on arcanist is atm.

Just give up, there no way to raise necromancer back, it already dead unfortunately

GrimStyx · May 29

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

BasP wrote: »

I'm glad to read that "some concessions could be made for the more impactful ones like Brutality/Sorcery/Prophecy/Savagery" at least (as long as such buffs are added to useful skills, that is). But the fact that Necro's don't have a lot of debuffs either is a bit strange considering the vision of the devs.

Feels more like an excuse than anything. Necros aren't a particularly good debuff class. They have Major Vuln which is pretty big, and in PvP Blighted Blastbones is good to have on your team, but other than that, their main "debuffs" come from a set (Elemental Catalyst) and not their skills.

They're also supposedly a DoT class, yet they only have 2 DoTs + a DoT status effect.

There's a big separation between what the intended design of Necro is, and what Necro's identity is in actuality.

All of their DoT are AOE ground abilities, well, there is a link from the ground, but the problem is that in Aoe ground you can only hold off a pve trash pack of mobs, or some bosses, in other cases, and especially in pvp content, you simply can't to implement these abilities it turns out, I even tried to slow down the enemy and run around the corpse and the enemy itself so that the link from the corpse would cause damage, well, it looked like a cringe and ineffective

OtarTheMad · May 30

They definitely need more debuffs if they want it to stand out. Giving it back Heal Absorption would be great, put it on an Ult like Animated Blastbones so it’s not OP.

As for buffs, I would honestly rather they focus on fixing some of these abilities first. Offensively, even with those buffs they’d still be in trouble and at the bottom. Someone said putting it on the Skeletal Summons, well for me, as a Magcro, that is not going to get me to slot that ability… that ability is just not good at all. The damage is meh, you can’t control who it attacks, not even a dot which Necro needs, sometimes it just stops attacking randomly.

I’ll take my chances with Entropy morph or Scribing for the buffs.

yadibroz · May 30

OtarTheMad wrote: »

They definitely need more debuffs if they want it to stand out. Giving it back Heal Absorption would be great, put it on an Ult like Animated Blastbones so it’s not OP.

As for buffs, I would honestly rather they focus on fixing some of these abilities first. Offensively, even with those buffs they’d still be in trouble and at the bottom. Someone said putting it on the Skeletal Summons, well for me, as a Magcro, that is not going to get me to slot that ability… that ability is just not good at all. The damage is meh, you can’t control who it attacks, not even a dot which Necro needs, sometimes it just stops attacking randomly.

I’ll take my chances with Entropy morph or Scribing for the buffs.

Just leave it dead as how it supposed to be with no buff

OtarTheMad · May 30

yadibroz wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

They definitely need more debuffs if they want it to stand out. Giving it back Heal Absorption would be great, put it on an Ult like Animated Blastbones so it’s not OP.

As for buffs, I would honestly rather they focus on fixing some of these abilities first. Offensively, even with those buffs they’d still be in trouble and at the bottom. Someone said putting it on the Skeletal Summons, well for me, as a Magcro, that is not going to get me to slot that ability… that ability is just not good at all. The damage is meh, you can’t control who it attacks, not even a dot which Necro needs, sometimes it just stops attacking randomly.

I’ll take my chances with Entropy morph or Scribing for the buffs.

Just leave it dead as how it supposed to be with no buff

A necro class so dead it can’t be Necro’d

ZhuJiuyin · May 30

DK - 3 Major/Minor Debuffs, plus an unnamed % flame damage taken debuff via Engulfing

Don’t forget about the 65 damage that Stone Giant provides that stacks up to five times.

TDVM · May 31

IncultaWolf wrote: »

At the minimum necromancer needs major brutality/sorcery attached to the skeletal minion, and have the while slotted on either bar bonus.

Letting players self-activate the agony totem synergy would help the class out a lot, right now we can't apply the minor vulnerability without another player activating the synergy, if you play solo you're out of luck. They can already self activate graverobber, and this would also further give necromancers some class identity.

Always thought it was odd that nightblade was better at debuffing enemies than necromancer.

If adding major brutality/sorcery, clearly not on a skeleton minion, better to find a skill that will be useful in both pve and pvp, not just pve alone

TDVM · May 31

Overall it would be nice if necro had more debuffs and DoT damage than other classes, if the idea of the class is to weaken enemies, and maybe early ideas in class development that weren't added to the class at release would be a good solution, maybe there was something interesting and useful there. And maybe a redesigned jumping skeleton would be more useful than it is now

KlauthWarthog · May 31

I facepalmed hard enough to startle my cats when I read that.
The combat team really has no idea about what the class actually looks like.

BXR_Lonestar · May 31

If Necro's are supposed to be a support/debuff class, then give them a skill line completely dedicated to curses.

Major vulnerability can be moved to a single target curse similar to elemental susceptibility.

It would be awesome if they had a unique debuff that stacked on top of major/minor breach in an AOE, similar to crimson oath.

Give them a wide-zone curse (20-28 meters) where movement speed is slowed 70% (decrepify)

And give them a curse that reflects damage done and heals your allies.

Seriously, the best Necromancer I have ever played in any game has been the Diablo 2 Necro. It didn't matter if your focus was summonables (skeleton/golum army), curses and poisons, or bone spells, it was just an all around great class to play. ESO's necromancer feels like they just had no vision for the class whatsoever, and now they're confused as to what to do with it.

yadibroz · May 31

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

If Necro's are supposed to be a support/debuff class, then give them a skill line completely dedicated to curses.

Major vulnerability can be moved to a single target curse similar to elemental susceptibility.

It would be awesome if they had a unique debuff that stacked on top of major/minor breach in an AOE, similar to crimson oath.

Give them a wide-zone curse (20-28 meters) where movement speed is slowed 70% (decrepify)

And give them a curse that reflects damage done and heals your allies.

Seriously, the best Necromancer I have ever played in any game has been the Diablo 2 Necro. It didn't matter if your focus was summonables (skeleton/golum army), curses and poisons, or bone spells, it was just an all around great class to play. ESO's necromancer feels like they just had no vision for the class whatsoever, and now they're confused as to what to do with it.

That why zos is the best company ever yay, let celebrate that they been doing a good job yay, no all this entire time they are doing more bad things than good things and it will keep the game from becoming much worse than is and will keep losing players and is sad when is easy to fix it and if I had one chance to be part of the dev, I will follow all players feedbacks and give it to them and make the game better and will make more money for release new things that players want but I guess money is all they want.

GrimStyx · May 31

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

If Necro's are supposed to be a support/debuff class, then give them a skill line completely dedicated to curses.

Major vulnerability can be moved to a single target curse similar to elemental susceptibility.

It would be awesome if they had a unique debuff that stacked on top of major/minor breach in an AOE, similar to crimson oath.

Give them a wide-zone curse (20-28 meters) where movement speed is slowed 70% (decrepify)

And give them a curse that reflects damage done and heals your allies.

Seriously, the best Necromancer I have ever played in any game has been the Diablo 2 Necro. It didn't matter if your focus was summonables (skeleton/golum army), curses and poisons, or bone spells, it was just an all around great class to play. ESO's necromancer feels like they just had no vision for the class whatsoever, and now they're confused as to what to do with it.

In general, I think that the necromancer’s healing branch needs to be remade completely under the curses branch, burst healing can be left there, after all it curses you with disease status in order to heal. The necromancer healer generally looks extremely ridiculous. I didn’t understand at all then this trend of making 3 branches for damage, tank and healing. Let the class be good in two directions, but don’t scatter it and do neither this nor that. Trying to be good at everything means failing at everything

BXR_Lonestar · June 3

In general, I think that the necromancer’s healing branch needs to be remade completely under the curses branch, burst healing can be left there, after all it curses you with disease status in order to heal. The necromancer healer generally looks extremely ridiculous. I didn’t understand at all then this trend of making 3 branches for damage, tank and healing. Let the class be good in two directions, but don’t scatter it and do neither this nor that. Trying to be good at everything means failing at everything

I agree with the sentiment here, as I don't think there is any reason the classes need to be viable in all 3 roles such that they have dedicated tank, healing, and DPS skill lines. The "heal" skill line should be remade to simply be a survivability skill line instead.

tigerWhiskers · June 6

Actually being strong on debuffs would breathe much needed life into necro.
Give us the GLS fixes. Give us at least major prophecy/savagery. But give us the debuffs!

Finedaible · June 6

ZoS can never make up their minds when it comes to class design. They want to cram in so many different themes into each class instead of making more classes that they end up making something devoid of all power fantasy and identity.

Just look at how many themes they tried cramming into Warden: Animal summoning/taming, Ice magic, plant magic - which is seemingly at odds with Ice magic but w/e - Spinner magic, and they are worshippers of Yffre but totally not related to Druids like the Bretons of High Isle who also worship Yffre... Like good lord what ARE they supposed to be? I remember when they said something along the lines that Necromancer was supposed to be an elementalist that summons the undead, but now they are supposedly the debuffer class. I don't think they even know what it is supposed to be at this point when they make really, really weird changes to skills.

TDVM · June 6

If necro will make top 1 in debuffs among other classes, or even major brutality/sorcery he doesn't need as it can be gotten from Scribing.