Joy_Division wrote: »

So whatever happened to the Population test we had 6 months ago?

I suppose nothing and nothing will come about it.

It is possible ZOS wants to examine that test, but they just haven’t gotten around to it yet. In 2018, Zenimax reassigned the one developer they had on PvP to the combat team. Did you know the last Battleground map was added in update 21? Gold Road will be update 42 for reference. 2024 is the year marks Elder Scrolls Online as game that existed with no dedicated PvP developer (2019-present) longer than it did with a PvP developer (2014-2018). Can we please have some indication that PvP and Cyrodiil is still part of ESO?

Last week I decided to do what I have not done in years. Log in good old Gray Host PC NA every night I had leisure time. The experience was basically the same as when I last played regularly, telling me that no matter what changes ZOS makes, the game-play patterns remain constant: 1v1 fights that are drawn-out stalemates, a population cap so low there is only one fight happening at any given time, the disproportionate power/presence of “ball groups” (what the community usually refers to the better organized groups of 12 players).

This is about as far away from an inviting environment as it gets to what we’ll call the general population, by which I mean the sorts of casual weekend warriors, working parents who don’t have the time to study PvP, PvE oriented players who do occasionally want to dip their toes into PvP, etc., you get the idea. It seems as if Cyrodiil is on autopilot. Perhaps because of the mistaken impression that since the ques for primetime Gray Host are excessively long (My AD que was 112 on Friday), that must mean all is well. Nope. It’s the same 200 players all trying to get into the same campaign, but waiting because the population cap is so low. This is probably the most uninviting aspect of Cyrodiil: why would a new player wait two hours just to play? They won’t and they don’t. And, no, the general population is not going to que up for Ravenwatch or whatever. Can we give up on that fantasy? It’s been ten years now.

How can ZOS make Cyrodiil a more inviting environment to its overall playerbase? Raising the population cap. It has to happen. Doing so will make the Cyrodiil experience more varied, more fun, and more accessible to the ESO community at large.

Come on Joy, you are just saying that. How will raising the population actually make a difference? Because it will not only bring about more fights, but most importantly, create more opportunities in which players of equal caliber will fight each other instead of getting their ass constantly handed to them by those people who do prioritize studying PvP.

Have we ever considered why Cyrodiil is so uninviting to the general population?

By mathematical definition, half of Cyrodiil’s population is below average. Are we honestly going to believe they are going to take the initiative, hop on their horse for 5 minutes, and actively seek out enemy players to fight at a random resource? Are we joking? Even if they wanted or tried to, after getting deleted by better players (or more often multiple players), they are going to realize it’s a waste of time and either do one of two things: 1) not come back to Cyrodiil believing that it’s not for them (and they will be correct in that ZOS has done nothing to encourage PvP activities for them) or 2) wait in a frontline keep with their map open for a fight to come to them in which they can enjoy the safety of other alliance players and maybe actually kill an opposing player. When you have a tiny population with half of them sitting around in Castle Roe with their maps open, there aren’t any fights on the map. Putting a flag in Bruma or adding outposts on the map’s periphery isn’t going to change that.

Just as a thought experiment, what options are available for the DC who is better than 31% of the population (let’s call them DC 31) to do when staring at their map at Fort Aleswell? They could just randomly ride to the enemy controlled Bleakers. And do what? Set up a ballista? Pointless. They could bypass and take Chalman mine! Assuming they don’t get destroyed on the way and can take out the NPCs, what are they going to do when the 3 or 4 EP in Chalman looking at their map respond? Right, inc. 1vX clip on Youtube. Or DC 31 could teleport to Glademist because a group of three “tower humpers” just took the farm. Oh, right. Now instead of 1vXing three EP who were not confident in their skills at Chalman, DC 31 is now going to recapture the farm against three pros for the glory of Covenant! (Except possession of said farm is utterly irrelevant for 59 out of every 60 minutes). Not happening. DC 31 and her mighty templar could sit in stealth between Bleakers and Aleswell and gank the approaching EP! LOLOLOLOLOLOL. Do we see the problem here? The way Cyrodiil is designed means in this all-too-common situation, there is nothing DC 31 can do to meaningfully contribute to their alliance, let alone have a realistic shot of actually killing an enemy player by themselves. In each of these scenarios, DC 31 is pitted in a fight they are not going to win. That’s why so many players at Aleswell wait with their map open. They are passive. The game provides nothing for them to do. They are 100% dependent on their alliance mates to accomplish anything. Congratulations, we now know why herds exist on the African Serengeti.

Joy, they are just going to have to go out there and hone their skills. Exactly, Cyrodiil is an uninviting environment to the general population who have not done so yet. Joy, they can just group up with other players. Exactly, they have to fulfill prerequisites and do things from the start that other people believe are necessary in order to have any fun in Cyrodiil. And let’s be honest about these LFG pick-up-groups. What exactly are these 12 players going to do? If they try to do anything but PvDoor an undefended keep, all I need are just 2 or 3 other decent players and they’ll never take it. 12 random pugs don’t have the firepower, numbers, self-reliance, or confidence to concentrate their efforts to track and secure kills against good PvPers while also flipping the flags before other players start showing up. And anytime these looking-for-group 12 mans run into a real organized group, it’s basically mass execution. They lose 12-0 every time, with the majority getting deleted at the first contact. They aren’t even a speed bump. They are roadkill. We’ve seen this for years now. Let’s stop kidding ourselves. The PUG groups absolutely needed the full 24 from the old group size to even have a shot of being useful on a competitive map. Currently Cyrodiil is basically telling these players the problem is them. Git gud bruh. Or type LFG and pretend that somehow makes them competitive

It's actually worse than that. As Cyrodiil’s play pattern goes, DC 31 is constantly pitted against higher tier players. DC 31 is only responding to fights and those fights most of the time are initiated by skilled players confident enough in their abilities. These solo players, small-scale groups, and organized ball groups attack objectives knowing the passive players looking for a fight will respond. So our hypothetical DC 31 spends a lot more time fighting players who are far better than them rather than fighting against their AD 28 or EP 35 counterparts, which is ass backwards.

For 10 years, we have implored ZOS to add mechanics to Cyrodiil to give these players some useful way of contributing, to get fights spread out on the map, to just make the things to do in Cyrodiil more varied, more interesting, more accessible. But all we got are capturable towns (which once again are the playground of players confident in their skills) and destroyable bridges and gates (which upon destruction removes one of the few places where actual and continuous PvP did happen). Zos has gone about it all wrong by thinking that the game’s mechanics are the reason PvP is uninviting. How does removing procs, or adding the Plaguebreak set, or changing the AvAvA scoring system, or giving us another PvP currency to buy stuff provide more opportunities for below average players – again by mathematical definition half of Cyrodiil’s population – to meaningfully contribute to their alliance’s success or get the personal satisfaction of killing opposing players? They don’t. Those measures implemented by ZOS were attempts to make the combat experiences less annoying and give us more rewards. They don’t actually address the core issue: the DC 31 is basically a passive spectator and doesn’t fight players of their own caliber enough.

When is Cyrodiil is the most fun?

When old school PvPers speak glowingly of the early days of PvP, it is fair to say that is a lot of nostalgia. We had skills that could completely shut down other players like Blinding Flashes and the old Reflective Scales. The bugs were far more prevalent and debilitating (like not being able to enter a postern door, infinite loading screens every night, etc.). The performance was definitely worse, and slideshows were all too common. What made that era fun was because so few of us knew what we were doing and there were so many of us, there were always fights going on and most of the time we would be fighting players of comparable skill. It was an ideal environment for the general population. We were just as useless as DC 31 is today, nevertheless the situation was totally different. We were hardly ever passive because there were so many fights, and we were killing enough other players to have a sense of accomplishment.

The only time new Cyrodiil recreates that sort of gameplay is when organic fights emerge somewhere on the map that attracts a lot of players. That is the only consistent situation in which DC 31 will fight players of comparable ability. So, we need more of them. Aside from a flashing icon on the screen that screams “Hey, there is an actual fight here and one in which you don’t have to spend more time chasing people in a tower” (which is why we go to them as much as we express faux indignation on these forums about stacking Cyrodiil’s population), they only happen when there are enough passive players at the same spot to feel emboldened to move to an objective that is close by. That is why these sorts of fights happen much more often on the Emperor Ring corridors by outposts (Aleswell – Bleakers – Chalman, Blue Road Keep – Sejanus – Alessia, Roe – Nikel – Ash) than say objectives that are technically adjacent (Roe – Alessia or Blue Road Keep – Chalman) that are too far apart to support a continuous influx of players. When ZOS lowered the population caps, it completely undercut this needed and naturally occurring dynamic because:

• There are less alliance mates for DC 31 to feel confident they might actually accomplish something
• Only dedicated PvP players will wait in a two-hour que so there are not many players comparable to DC 31 in the first place.

ZOS needs to understand that changing campaign rules, introducing new proc sets, or even buffing a favored class is not going to make it so a below average players will want to wait over an hour to log in just to get farmed by PvP oriented players who are willing to wait in that que. The basic question to ask when considering any reform or change in Cyrodiil should be: will this help to encourage fights between ESO’s playerbase from the generation population?

Raise. The. Population. Cap.

I can already hear it. But Joy, what about the lag? Yes, I know. What about the stale, boring, ball group dominant, one single fight happening on a huge map, half decade neglected, stagnant Cyrodiil that is 100% uninviting to the general population who plays this game? I played during the population test and most of the time I had fun. I stopped playing for months afterward because Cyrodiil with a pop cap of about 80, which plays more like 40, is boring.

We don’t know what the population cap is. Some people think it is as low as 60. It was once 600! Per faction! Zos has announced numerous times in the past that they lowered the cap. Ultimately, I don’t think it matters whether it is 60, 80, or even 100. It’s a pointless debate because all of those numbers are way too small for a large map, leading to the same effect, everything in this thread:

1. que is too long
2. density is too sparse to create spontaneous fights
3. not enough alliance mates to embolden DC 31
4. one single ball group will have a disproportionate effect on the map because it takes too large a percentage of the population to finally kill them.

I do not feel like arguing this point because it doesn’t matter. Whatever the cap is, it is too small.

It is ridiculous I’ve got to wait in a two-hour weekend que to play with some friends I miss just to get into these drawn-out stalemates, chase people around a resource tower, and constantly run into the same ball group because nothing else is happening on the map. Instead of finding excuses for preserving an uninviting PvP experience that will never grow, do something. And remember before you go redesigning Cyrodiil in search for something: ZOS has no dedicated PvP developer and has not added or even reformed anything in Cyrodiil for years.

Just. Raise. The. Population. Cap.

Other easy things ZOS can do with no dedicated PvP developer.

Revert the destroyable bridges and gates
This was worth trying on the theory that somehow a disorganized population not in a formal command structure would spontaneously arrange themselves to exploit some grand strategy. But it’s been years. That’s not happening. We don’t use the other bridges or goat paths because they are too far away, there are no fights there, and we (well, not me) were under the delusion that AD 31 was a combination of Napoleon and Achilles, a strategic genius who was so gifted a fighter that they did not need the presence of their alliance mates to actually do something in Cyrodiil. When that bridge is destroyed, it ends the very sort of spontaneous PvP we need (and very much liked). AD 31 ports to Nikel, opens their map, and waits. “But I love it when I siege Alessia bridge and people drown in the Slaughterfish!” So, 5 minutes of satisfaction once a week at the expense of eliminating the very sort of fights that we are trying to facilitate? Sorry, not worth it. Besides, there isn’t anybody to drown at the Chalman or Ash Gates.

For you history nerds, it is actually difficult to destroy the well-constructed sophisticated engineering that goes into bridges such as the one by Alessia. During WWII, the Germans used explosives (civilian grade, but still explosives), artillery, scuba divers, rockets, bombing aircraft, etc., but the Ludendorff Bridge at Remagen stood for ten days, long enough for US forces to cross the Rhine River in strength

.

What would have been the more interesting experiment to try is to make the gates and bridges capturable objectives. I get it Bruma and Winter’s Peak aren’t exactly attracting much attention, but there are more fights there. The reason the periphery of the map doesn’t get much action is because it is just that: the periphery of a very large map with so few people on it. If you put objectives in the middle of the map that people can see from the very keeps in which they are waiting for action, that is a completely different scenario. We could have encouraged a similar mechanic of forcing a faction to maintain supply lines, but by actually PvPing rather than removing PvP.

Make the campaign worth winning
There is little reason or benefit to win the very campaign ZOS went to all the trouble of literally locking our characters in. So, we are forced to play a campaign and there is nothing done to reward us for winning it. Is this a joke? 6,250 gold and 5 repair kits for an entire month. Great, I can buy one Columbine to replace the hundreds I used actually trying to win the campaign. I have no idea if I even won the campaign I just played it. There isn’t an on-screen display announcing the winner. None of the NPCs remark how well (or not) we are doing (or did). There isn’t any system of record keeping previous campaigns in game on ZOS’s official site, or even on the forums. I only remember the outcome of one campaign in ten years, the very first PC NA Wabbajack (90 days, EP won). Put up a banner for each 30-game campaign won by the alliance somewhere in the home base. Make it purchasable as a home decoration for people really gung-*** about winning. Start a sticky thread in the all-but-dead Alliance War subforum and start keeping track. Do something. If there are going to campaign locks, instead of pretending that will all of a sudden that make us care, implement tangible rewards so that not being able to play with our friends is worthwhile.

Put just enough effort into Cyrodiil that the talented content creators currently who PvP will be motivated to do consultant, marketing, and instructional work ZOS should be doing FOR FREE (or at least, believing they’ll get enough clicks, likes, and views to make a few dollars).
As I have already stated in this thread, nothing about Cyrodiil is made for, let alone friendly to, the general population that plays the Elder Scrolls Online. Let’s say our hypothetical DC 31 wanted to be a more active participant in PvP. They are going to need a lot of patience and a lot of honest introspection (not to mention research) as to why they die so quickly. There is nothing in the game, sponsored websites, or official forums to tell them this information. Ideally, the best place for them to figure much of this out is through their own experience fighting players of their similar caliber. Raise the population caps! They are not going to get that experience in the current format where they are constantly pitted against better players and organized groups. Just by raising the population caps would signal to the ESO community that maybe future plans (which we have no clue about because there isn’t any communication) involve something more than leaving PvP on autopilot.

What else can we do?

• Sponsor a contest to create a tutorial or FAQ or “Things I wish I knew” type project and have this information accessible on ZOS’s website and a sticky to the forums. Have multiple winners awarded crowns or maybe a mount or house.
• Speaking of the forums, actually update them and use them. Look at the “ALLIANCE WAR & IMPERIAL CITY” forum. What’s there? We have two stickies, one about the population cap testing that is all but moribund and one about the perpetual, can’t make our minds up proc set situation, for a campaign hardly anyone plays. There are Community Rules. And then there is my favorite, the FAQ from APRIL 2014. In it we have this nugget:

  Q: Are you all done building Cyrodiil or will there be any PvP updates?
  A: There will be plenty of updates to Cyrodiil as the game lives on. There are already plans for the first few patches!

  So, what were those plans?
  
  Maintaining these outdated/defunct threads is a bad optic and just reinforces the notion that PvP is on autopilot.
• Periodically host PvP events. 1v1, 4v4, 12v12 contests. Show us that you are invested. Make it official so that there are awards for prosperity (here’s another sticky for the forums). Perhaps most useful of all, because it will be ZOS’s standard rules, they can see with their own eyes and have the actual data what builds, classes, and abilities are the better players who are winning fights are using.

There are plenty of things that ZOS can do even without a dedicated PvP player. Even though I would count myself as one of those sweaty 200 people who are willing to wait in a hour+ long que, it was a mistake to try and cater the Cyrdoiil experience to us. It has just made Cyrodiil uninviting to the general population and PvP is far more interesting and enjoyable when they are a part of it.

Please raise the population caps.

GooGa592 wrote: »

[snip]

LostScot wrote: »

Firstly I apologise for what will be a brief reply in contrast to your well-reasoned post.

For me, Cyrodiil was never the same after Imperial City was introduced to the game. Due to repurposing of hardware or changes to the client/server communications, Cyrodiil went from supporting populations of 1000+ easily before, to being a lag-fest with only a hundred players. Many players reported frequent lag spikes causing pauses of up to 10 seconds that made normal PvP problematic.

Couple that with changes that effectively focused on PvE combat, or outright 'nerfs' as some players cried fowl (hey Templars, remember the good old days when the class had it's time in the limelight?), PvP popularity quickly declined.

With that, the joys of large-scale PvP we had enjoyed became memories. The nostalgia was born.