I have a genuine question for the devs about random normal dungeons.

Gray_howling_parrot · May 31

Why are random normal dungeons rewarding the EXACT same thing as a random veteran dungeon?

While you can’t rely on your community to have “manners” and queue up for the roles their designed for, it is equally as important to have artificial guardrails in place or at least things to push you in the direction of your vision. What do I mean by that?

Because ESO is play how you want, you are able to queue up as a fake tank or fake healer because there’s nothing stopping you from doing so. But - why do people even do it? It’s absolutely not to give new players a terrible experience, even though that’s the primary side effect, it’s because it’s the most efficient way to get the primary reward of the activity - daily XP & transmutes. So here is the question:

After 10 years, WHY is the reward for doing a random veteran dungeon the EXACT same as doing a random normal dungeon? 10 transmutes & the SAME XP. I GUARANTEE you many people would do other stuff if it was more worth it. Outside of personal challenge, there’s not many enticing reasons to do a random vet.

WHY NOT make the rewards for a random vet 2.5x that of a random normal? You can get fungal grotto 1 for your random normal or vet lair of maarselok (with a PUG mind you…). The risk should be worth the reward here.

ALSO if you diversify the transmute gain across a variety of activities, like gaining some via endeavors, daily zone quests, random drops from crafting writs, etc, this plain and simple would not occur as much.

Now before those of you who don’t use transmutes often chime in, yes, I’d love to see alternate ways to spend them as well and an increase to the cap. BUT - the point of this post is to try to get an understanding of this fundamental issue with the game as it’s never been commented on to my knowledge.

Gray_howling_parrot · May 31

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_Finn

Has this been discussed with the devs ever? I feel like this is a relatively easy fix (coming from somebody who has no experience or real expertise to say that 🤣). A simple alteration in rewards would go a very long way and really help a situation that has been complained about by the community almost since its inception.

Elsonso · May 31

Cooperharley wrote: »

Why are random normal dungeons rewarding the EXACT same thing as a random veteran dungeon?

While you can’t rely on your community to have “manners” and queue up for the roles their designed for, it is equally as important to have artificial guardrails in place or at least things to push you in the direction of your vision. What do I mean by that?

Because ESO is play how you want, you are able to queue up as a fake tank or fake healer because there’s nothing stopping you from doing so. But - why do people even do it? It’s absolutely not to give new players a terrible experience, even though that’s the primary side effect, it’s because it’s the most efficient way to get the primary reward of the activity - daily XP & transmutes. So here is the question:

After 10 years, WHY is the reward for doing a random veteran dungeon the EXACT same as doing a random normal dungeon? 10 transmutes & the SAME XP. I GUARANTEE you many people would do other stuff if it was more worth it. Outside of personal challenge, there’s not many enticing reasons to do a random vet.

WHY NOT make the rewards for a random vet 2.5x that of a random normal? You can get fungal grotto 1 for your random normal or vet lair of maarselok (with a PUG mind you…). The risk should be worth the reward here.

My opinion is that a lot of gamers are inherently lazy. Fastest and easiest path to the desired reward. Fake roles allow faster access to content, so less waiting. Normal dungeons allow for fast rewards. Shortcuts are not hard to understand. Skipping bosses that don't contribute to the goal, or make the dungeon longer, are also not hard to understand. Speed running ahead of the group because the player can solo the dungeon and only needs the group there for the group reward... also easy to understand. I am not saying that everyone is like that, but this is an observation that I happen to agree with.

This means that lazy gamers will do veteran content ONLY when there is a reason to not do normal content. Some special drop, or as you suggest, a larger reward.

The thing is that if the person is only looking to do one daily dungeon to get a particular reward, is it better to do a fast easy dungeon for less reward, or a longer harder dungeon for more reward. The reward would have to offset the easy nature.

Transmutes tend to collect over time, and if that is good enough to the point where the rate that they collect is less important than the time spent collecting them, the additional reward is not as much of an incentive. The player can be off doing other things, like writs, playing another game, or going outside (sorry, did not mean to scare anyone!

) rather than doing veteran dungeons.

Five minutes for a base game normal dungeon, like Fungal Grotto 1, is better than some DLC or veteran dungeon that may take more than 2.5x the time. I routinely see people in here say they drop from the group for certain types of dungeons, and I figure the reason they do this is that it is faster to queue for another attempt than it is to complete the dungeon that came up. I also see people ask for a way to exclude DLC dungeons from the group finder, and I think this is for the same reason.

So, my thought is that the reward needs to be significantly better. Not just 2.5x, but way better than that for veteran and WAY WAY better for DLC dungeons. Otherwise, people will just comment that it is nice that they did that, but could ZOS please push the 2.5x down to normal so they can benefit, too.

Edit: and of course, we eventually hit the arbitrary cap on transmutes, making the whole increased rewards moot.

Gray_howling_parrot · May 31

Elsonso wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

Why are random normal dungeons rewarding the EXACT same thing as a random veteran dungeon?

While you can’t rely on your community to have “manners” and queue up for the roles their designed for, it is equally as important to have artificial guardrails in place or at least things to push you in the direction of your vision. What do I mean by that?

Because ESO is play how you want, you are able to queue up as a fake tank or fake healer because there’s nothing stopping you from doing so. But - why do people even do it? It’s absolutely not to give new players a terrible experience, even though that’s the primary side effect, it’s because it’s the most efficient way to get the primary reward of the activity - daily XP & transmutes. So here is the question:

After 10 years, WHY is the reward for doing a random veteran dungeon the EXACT same as doing a random normal dungeon? 10 transmutes & the SAME XP. I GUARANTEE you many people would do other stuff if it was more worth it. Outside of personal challenge, there’s not many enticing reasons to do a random vet.

WHY NOT make the rewards for a random vet 2.5x that of a random normal? You can get fungal grotto 1 for your random normal or vet lair of maarselok (with a PUG mind you…). The risk should be worth the reward here.

My opinion is that a lot of gamers are inherently lazy. Fastest and easiest path to the desired reward. Fake roles allow faster access to content, so less waiting. Normal dungeons allow for fast rewards. Shortcuts are not hard to understand. Skipping bosses that don't contribute to the goal, or make the dungeon longer, are also not hard to understand. Speed running ahead of the group because the player can solo the dungeon and only needs the group there for the group reward... also easy to understand. I am not saying that everyone is like that, but this is an observation that I happen to agree with.

This means that lazy gamers will do veteran content ONLY when there is a reason to not do normal content. Some special drop, or as you suggest, a larger reward.

The thing is that if the person is only looking to do one daily dungeon to get a particular reward, is it better to do a fast easy dungeon for less reward, or a longer harder dungeon for more reward. The reward would have to offset the easy nature.

Transmutes tend to collect over time, and if that is good enough to the point where the rate that they collect is less important than the time spent collecting them, the additional reward is not as much of an incentive. The player can be off doing other things, like writs, playing another game, or going outside (sorry, did not mean to scare anyone! ) rather than doing veteran dungeons.

Five minutes for a base game normal dungeon, like Fungal Grotto 1, is better than some DLC or veteran dungeon that may take more than 2.5x the time. I routinely see people in here say they drop from the group for certain types of dungeons, and I figure the reason they do this is that it is faster to queue for another attempt than it is to complete the dungeon that came up. I also see people ask for a way to exclude DLC dungeons from the group finder, and I think this is for the same reason.

So, my thought is that the reward needs to be significantly better. Not just 2.5x, but way better than that for veteran and WAY WAY better for DLC dungeons. Otherwise, people will just comment that it is nice that they did that, but could ZOS please push the 2.5x down to normal so they can benefit, too.

Edit: and of course, we eventually hit the arbitrary cap on transmutes, making the whole increased rewards moot.

Appreciate the insight here, the nuance of what they could implement is always up for discussion, but the question here is why we’ve gone 10 years without any discussion, acknowledgement, etc of a problem that is VERY fixable ultimately

LaintalAy · May 31

Cooperharley wrote: »

WHY NOT make the rewards for a random vet 2.5x that of a random normal? You can get fungal grotto 1 for your random normal or vet lair of maarselok (with a PUG mind you…). The risk should be worth the reward here.

It's possible that they don't want to give you any more rewards than you already get.
It's possible that they see the resulting impact on players' dungeon experience as 'moot'.

Not being insane, I can assure you that rolling Lair of Maarselok in a random, will result in me waiting a further 15 mins for Drake Villa, or if I'm lucky Vault of Madness.

CTBee · May 31

While i'm all for them adding new ways to get transmutes, incentivizing doing random vets over random normals would likely have a negative impact on the community. At best it would end up splitting the player base, among people that can do vets consistently and the people that can't, increasing queue times for both activities. It would likely also cause random normals to become harder and longer since the more experienced players will be doing vets. It would also likely result in fake healers and tanks in random vet queues which would make random vets less enjoyable too.

carl2552 · May 31

I disagree with Bee

Warhawke_80 · May 31

I know something has to happen because we were told that story mode dungeons are going to be a thing eventually...which means they have to restructure the gear for Normal and Veteran Dungeons

Right?

sarahthes · May 31

carl2552 wrote: »

I disagree with Bee

I agree with Bee.

Lazarus_Rising · May 31

A lot of people unfit to do veteran will queue and cause more drama than there is now. Rather have people wipe the whole dungeon and speedrun in normal. Its not optimal but at least everyone gets their reward. The kicking and leaving in vet will be insane if they increase the reward.

Gray_howling_parrot · May 31

CTBee wrote: »

While i'm all for them adding new ways to get transmutes, incentivizing doing random vets over random normals would likely have a negative impact on the community. At best it would end up splitting the player base, among people that can do vets consistently and the people that can't, increasing queue times for both activities. It would likely also cause random normals to become harder and longer since the more experienced players will be doing vets. It would also likely result in fake healers and tanks in random vet queues which would make random vets less enjoyable too.

I don’t agree personally

The natural progression for any MMO is from easier to harder content. It would push veteran players in general, not all veteran players, towards it. Sure. But that’s who the veteran content is designed for! People that want a challenge. Challenging things should be more rewarding than non-challenging things. That’s how everything in life works.

Just because somebody isn’t as good at something doesn’t mean they should be rewarded for doing something at a lower difficulty the same as somebody working to be better and do something at a higher difficulty. That doesn’t make sense. This argument is also counterintuitive because technically the player base is already split then - people do veteran dungeons all the time, it’s just rewarding the random dungeon queue properly. On top of that, there are about 600 posts a day across all social media platforms (exaggeration clearly) about how fake tanks and healers just bum rush everything and ruin the experience. We’re trying to mitigate that here and if you have an alternate suggestion sure! But blank No’s aren’t very helpful to the discussion

I want 2 things here:

1. I want the experience for newer players to be better in normal dungeons so they can experience the awesome content, the story, and learn the game
2. I want to be actually rewarded properly for doing a random veteran dungeon. That’s all it is. Harder SHOULD = better rewards. That’s like saying you’re going to get paid the same to be a doctor and a cashier.

Your last point where it would put more fake tanks and healers is simply incorrect. There absolutely are fake tanks and healers in vets and it’s even more annoying because the content is harder but there’s also significantly less tolerance for it because it’s simply not really doable in most of the veteran content. Fake healer? Sure. Trifectas do 3 dps and a tank all the time but not fake tanks nearly as much. People tolerate that MUCH less in veteran than normal.

Gray_howling_parrot · May 31

Lazarus_Rising wrote: »

A lot of people unfit to do veteran will queue and cause more drama than there is now. Rather have people wipe the whole dungeon and speedrun in normal. Its not optimal but at least everyone gets their reward. The kicking and leaving in vet will be insane if they increase the reward.

People do that currently. It’s part of doing a PUG dungeon. There’d be more volume on both ends though so the incidence I bet would be identical. More experienced players because it’s actually rewarding and more inexperienced players wanting to learn more because of the better rewards

Diminish · May 31

Then people that can't complete random vet dailies or can't find a group for them and are afraid of the group finder will complain that it's an unfair system. Been mentioned numerous times before. You're beating a dead horse.

thadjarvis · May 31

sarahthes wrote: »

carl2552 wrote: »

I disagree with Bee

I agree with Bee.

I disagree with everyone. The whole idea of “fake” tanks and healers is misunderstood.

If ZoS wants people to play well defined roles with support sets in random dungeons than maybe split off vDLC as a separate queue with more rewards and leave the rest (base normal, base vet, dlc normal) as is.

“fake” support misunderstandings:

1) A tank’s role is primarily to take on aggro from enemies that a glass cannon damage dealer with one heal/shield skill cannot survive easily. Other than a few normal DLC dungeons (specific encounters) there is nothing that meets that criteria.

2) Their secondary role is to speed up pulls by gathering adds. That can be a combo of a chain and LoS stacking. However, most others in GF groups deny the “tank” from doing this by CC-ing adds and refusing to follow the tank’s LoS stacking.

3) Third is to increase group damage, which in organized groups is usually buff/debuffs. However, with only 3 others of average damage (by way of GF) it is more effective to do mostly damage slanting to some damage skills that also debuff (like a portal build).

Ie, the tank build for a GF normal dungeon is a DD build with perhaps an extra shield and/or slotting chain that also taunts for the rare bosses that require more than 1 defense skill and block/dodging their heavy attack. Using a trial tank build is actually not helpful to the group to complete the goal: finishing the dungeon and usually for at least half the group…as fast as possible. Fast because, most people in GF dungeons are farming something; ie grinding.

Healer is basically the same but even less requirements because there is absolutely nothing in normal dungeons that a glass cannon with a heal/shield skill can cruise through.

A full tank and healer build simply slows the encounters and forces more time for inexperienced players to guess/click wrong regarding unfamiliar mechanics.

BTW I “fake” tank all the time and all I ever get is some form of a “thank for the carry”; “that was fast”. I put a taunt on when I know the next boss (rare) will not be trivial. Sometimes I’ll chain but if I find I kill everything before the group shows up, it’s a futile effort.

So, if ZoS wants people to play well defined roles with support sets in random dungeons than maybe split off vDLC as a separate queue with more rewards and leave the rest (base normal, base vet, dlc normal) as is.

To make the runs less toxic and minimize drops, the system could only place someone in a particular vet DLC when choosing random if they have already cleared it.

EdjeSwift · May 31

A few points.

1. The Random Dungeon Finder is not always a PUG group, you can literally take a 4 person group and hit the random finder queue and get the full rewards.
2. You can manipulate the dungeon random queue by queuing with people with/without DLC to ensure that certain dungeons never come up. It's akin to using a level 10 to queue randoms to ensure FG1, Cells or Spindle.

Furthermore, isn't the reward for doing Veteran dungeons purple gear and monster helms?

As for your increased rewards suggestion, this wouldn't help with getting those "veterans" back in the queue IMO. I do see a lot of posts from people about needing transmutes, but I also see just as many with people who have a glut of transmutes and geodes to the point where they have thousands in geode/item form. I don't think upping the number of transmutes will have the effect you're looking for. Same as XP, there gets to be a point where XP is just another CP point and becomes irrelevant as a consideration.

I personally haven't queued for a random dungeon for XP or transmutes in years on my "veteran" account, because, as @Elsonso said,

"Transmutes tend to collect over time, and if that is good enough to the point where the rate that they collect is less important than the time spent collecting them, the additional reward is not as much of an incentive. The player can be off doing other things, like writs, playing another game, or going outside (sorry, did not mean to scare anyone! ) rather than doing veteran dungeons."

tsaescishoeshiner · May 31

One benefit of random daily dungeons is that they reduce queue times for players who are trying to queue for specific dungeons.

If random daily veteran dungeons offered a separate reward, I see a few main impacts:

People would spend more time failing content they're underprepared or undercoordinated for
Really good players might spend less time blasting/fake-roling through normal dungeons
People would instantly bail on veteran dungeons that are difficult to pug. This happens on normal, where things are way, way easier

Hostility is sort of common in random normal dungeons--it would be amplified in daily random veterans. I'm not saying this is a reason to NOT have a better reward for daily random veterans, I think it should maybe be encouraged differently. For example, maybe have a bonus reward only if you queue with a player from your guild or friendlist. (We're talking dungeons, so not considering solo players here)

LaintalAy · May 31

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

One benefit of random daily dungeons is that they reduce queue times for players who are trying to queue for specific dungeons.

If random daily veteran dungeons offered a separate reward, I see a few main impacts:
People would spend more time failing content they're underprepared or undercoordinated for

Really good players might spend less time blasting/fake-roling through normal dungeons

People would instantly bail on veteran dungeons that are difficult to pug. This happens on normal, where things are way, way easier

Hostility is sort of common in random normal dungeons--it would be amplified in daily random veterans. I'm not saying this is a reason to NOT have a better reward for daily random veterans, I think it should maybe be encouraged differently. For example, maybe have a bonus reward only if you queue with a player from your guild or friendlist. (We're talking dungeons, so not considering solo players here)

Your points support the need for players to play all dungeons, Norm and Vet, as co-operative, group events; in order to allow for individual player development to progress over time. Too much short-cutting is where all of this goes wrong.

N00BxV1 · May 31

I completely agree with everything @Cooperharley has said.

This has been brought up before, and is just like "beating a dead horse." But I don't care because you can't expect something to ever change if you just ignore it and let it happen. So until something finally changes I will beat that dead horse, then bury it in a cold shallow grave, and then dig it back up just so that I can beat it again...

Stop ruining people's experiences and teaching bad habits in Normal dungeons (that absolutely carries over into Veteran dungeons). Normal dungeons should be where players go to learn, to get quests done etc. It shouldn't be a place where newer players get trampled on by veteran players that are too lazy to do Veteran dungeons.

Give us more rewards for completing harder content like Veteran dungeons. It makes absolutely zero sense that completing the Random Veteran dungeon gives the same rewards as the Random Normal dungeon. Sure you get monster helms from Veteran dungeons, but what else? After you have all of the monster helms then you don't need any more. And the purple gear is a meaningless difference since it's so cheap and easy to just upgrade gear from blue to purple.

I'm well over 2200CP but I could always use more XP since I'm not at the CP cap. Sure we have the Armory now and swapping builds is easy. But maybe I just want to change 1 slottable CP instead of respec'ing or changing the whole build. Plus we only get 2 build slots by default and the additional sots are kinda expensive. And I'm not buying additional build slots on every alt because per-character upgrades is frickin' dumb.

I have thousands worth of Transmute Crystals in the form of reconstructed items across all 20 of my characters. But I could always use more Transmute Crystals since I play multiple builds on all characters and the builds tend to change. Having too many Transmute Crystals but not knowing what to do with them is only a problem if you let it be.

There are already fake tanks/healers in Veteran dungeons so that is a moot point. People will just use what the developers give them and allow them to get away with. So until the developers make some changes that will always be a problem.

The community has always been (and will always be) split so that is also a moot point. And everything that gets added to the game just splits the community even more. Base Game, DLC, Friends, Guilds, PVE, PVP, Normal, Veteran, Dungeons, Arenas, Trials, Battlegrounds, Bastion Nymics, Infinite Archive, Tales of Tribute, Quests, Housing, Trading, etc... == split community.

<snip>

<snipped for Conspiracy Theories and Misinformation>

MudcrabAttack · May 31

When I que for a random vet, it tends to be kind of fun more often than not. If they bring up the daily reward it’s probably going to get way worse as lazy people join the que

Elvenheart · May 31

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

I know something has to happen because we were told that story mode dungeons are going to be a thing eventually...which means they have to restructure the gear for Normal and Veteran Dungeons

Right?

When were we told that story mode dungeons are going to be a thing at some point?

Czeri · May 31

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

When I que for a random vet, it tends to be kind of fun more often than not. If they bring up the daily reward it’s probably going to get way worse as lazy people join the que

This. People will absolutely go after the bigger reward, making the vet PUG experience miserable.

Dagoth_Rac · May 31

Right now, Veteran Random is generally a nice gameplay experience precisely because the rewards are the same as normal. There is really no reason to queue for a random veteran unless you enjoy the challenge. And you tend to find yourself grouped up with other players who are both up to the challenge and accepting that it will be a challenge.

Adding enhanced rewards to veteran will just result in players queuing for random veteran that have no business being in a veteran dungeon, but hope to get carried to a shinier reward.

And even the players who can handle a veteran dungeon may not want to queue for random veteran. Even with lower rewards, some veteran-quality players may prefer to just get a modest amount of XP and transmute by rushing through a random normal. Maybe they won't be logged on very long. Or maybe they have something else scheduled to do in game later and don't want to commit time to a veteran dungeon.

So better veteran random rewards would likely make random normal a little bit better gameplay experience but definitely not resolve all the issues with current random normal. While making random normal queue times longer by splitting up the player base.

And the game has never really rewarded veteran content drastically better than normal. Monster helmets are nice but you can get all 3 weights very quickly so it does not seem to be designed as a long term reward that benefits continued veteran runs. Perfected gear can take a lot longer to acquire, but it is isolated to trials and arenas, not dungeons.

If you completely ignore the queue and just look at the dungeons themselves, veteran has always been more about achievement and challenge, not reward. So I am not sure why the random rewards should be 2.5x better. Maybe a small boost, like a "perfected geode" that has 12 transmute instead of 10. But massively better rewards for veteran is just not how veteran has ever worked in ESO. And the very modest difference in rewards between normal and veteran is something of a unique and identifying feature of ESO.

Desiato · June 1

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Right now, Veteran Random is generally a nice gameplay experience precisely because the rewards are the same as normal. There is really no reason to queue for a random veteran unless you enjoy the challenge. And you tend to find yourself grouped up with other players who are both up to the challenge and accepting that it will be a challenge.

Adding enhanced rewards to veteran will just result in players queuing for random veteran that have no business being in a veteran dungeon, but hope to get carried to a shinier reward.

This is exactly what would happen. It wouldn't solve the problem, it would extend the problem.

The solution to the problem is playing with friends and acquaintances, either from one's friends list, a guild or discord community.

For the decades I've played MMOs, pug life has always been rough. The way to avoid the hardship associated with them is to avoid pugs.

With that said, I play multiple normals a day and there's no significant problem other than a slow run because I go in prepared to handle agro, heal myself and dps, regardless of my role. Worst case scenario, I carry a group -- which happens a lot. I haven't encountered a normal in which I can't handle agro with 23k hp by avoiding red, blocking big hits and healing myself.

Also, a pure trinity group isn't the best way to play a normal. Ideally, you want all roles dpsing to some degree because they're so easy. A healer who only heals and a tank who only tanks isn't preparing for a normal properly. So it's fair for players to have a 'play how they want' attitude.

The bottom line is if you choose to pug, you have to accept the consequences of playing with random people who may have different ideas about how to play ESO than you.

darvaria · June 1

You get the monster helm. That's enough. Plus purple items. This makes gear attainable for everyone. You get the vet trophy and sometimes some achievement. And there is always HM for more. The rewards are just fine as they are.

Ishtarknows · June 1

darvaria wrote: »

You get the monster helm. That's enough. Plus purple items. This makes gear attainable for everyone. You get the vet trophy and sometimes some achievement. And there is always HM for more. The rewards are just fine as they are.

The monster helm is enough?

So after you've run the dungeon 3 times, then what? And the trophies are only for the first completion. Vet DLCs are longer, often have pug breaking mechs and are generally more unforgiving than normals. Why shouldn't there be incentives to repeat the content (while also speeding up someone else's queue time).

And regarding the achievements, nobody in their right mind is going into a pug queue to attempt a trifecta/ no death run.

wolfie1.0. · June 1

Ishtarknows wrote: »

darvaria wrote: »

You get the monster helm. That's enough. Plus purple items. This makes gear attainable for everyone. You get the vet trophy and sometimes some achievement. And there is always HM for more. The rewards are just fine as they are.

The monster helm is enough?

So after you've run the dungeon 3 times, then what? And the trophies are only for the first completion. Vet DLCs are longer, often have pug breaking mechs and are generally more unforgiving than normals. Why shouldn't there be incentives to repeat the content (while also speeding up someone else's queue time).

And regarding the achievements, nobody in their right mind is going into a pug queue to attempt a trifecta/ no death run.

Every vet run is an attempt at a trifecta/no death run, it's the players and sometimes rng that decide if they succeed or not.

moderatelyfatman · June 2

Cooperharley wrote: »

Why are random normal dungeons rewarding the EXACT same thing as a random veteran dungeon?

So here is the question:

After 10 years, WHY is the reward for doing a random veteran dungeon the EXACT same as doing a random normal dungeon? 10 transmutes & the SAME XP. I GUARANTEE you many people would do other stuff if it was more worth it. Outside of personal challenge, there’s not many enticing reasons to do a random vet.

WHY NOT make the rewards for a random vet 2.5x that of a random normal? You can get fungal grotto 1 for your random normal or vet lair of maarselok (with a PUG mind you…). The risk should be worth the reward here.

Please no! It's already bad enough with the extra keys now that we are gettin more CP200 players wanting to do HM dlc dungeons without knowing the mechs. I've also noticed a rise in fake healers and tanks in vet dlc dungeons as well. I'm particularly upset with the latter because it is nearly impossible to complete some of the harder dlc dungeons with just normal dps builds.

If you make the random vet rewards so much higher then you will make this situation even worse. At most, I'd suggest adding a single Undaunted key to incentivise good players to do random vets but not so much that you have the situation above.

Kainarel · June 2

If you do a pledge dungeon on veteran + hard mode, they give you two keys and a blue crystal geode.

I guess it would be nice to have slightly better reward for random vet... Nothing too big to make that experience, as some stated above, "miserable" for vet pugs, but still, something slightly better.

And I'd be very happy if I stopped receiving that Laurel style thing in rewards. Can anyone explain to me why it's so special that it requires typing destroy to get rid of it? Why not allowing to sell it or just delete it? It puzzles me.

tincanman · June 2

Cooperharley wrote: »

Why are random normal dungeons rewarding the EXACT same thing as a random veteran dungeon?....

To ensure the vet queues are filled with veteran players(mostly) who are capable of doing the content or players who are bored with normal dungeons and looking to improve their experience and ready and willing to advance their knowledge/skill.

If vet rewards were increased, the vet queues would be full of useless 'skill-disadvantaged', unprepared players either completely ignorant they were being carried (if they weren't kicked) or just completely ignorant, mostly but not exclusively due to the bad habits they'd picked up doing (random)normals or overland where you can 'play how you want' all you want and no one cares.

tincanman · June 2

Cooperharley wrote: »

...Has this been discussed with the devs ever? I...

There was a comment by gilliamtherogue on twitch a few years back essentially echoing what many on forum have said: it's a non-problem. The random tool was provided to give access to group content(dungeons) and the rewards introduced to ensure the queues were filled and, in both regards, it has been, glitches aside, completely successful.

dev response is implicitly given in the fairly recent extension/addition of/to the group tool to pretty much enable you to create any kind of group you want - including story-mode, cp-limited (alas, no level limit so sub 50th characters cannot easily pre-create a group that includes, for example level 10-44), trials etc.

edit: incidentally the group/dungeon finder hasn't been in the game for 10 years nor the associated daily rewards which were added much later when zos had to fix the broken earlier iterations of the tool.

tincanman · June 2

Obligatory: if you solo queue into a random group that's exactly what you will get and not a single player in that group owes any other player anything.

If there is a 'problem', it's exclusively a player generated one in having false expectations regarding what RANDOM truly means and has the obvious player solution is pre-forming your group (or enough of one so you and your 'group' can control the run) so the only random element ultimately experienced is the dungeon selected.

Once players start playing with friends/guildies or other pre-formed groups of like-minded individuals, occasionally back-filling a slot from the random tool, they will wonder why they took so long to do so and how much MORE fun can be found by taking responsibility for your own game-time and experience.

And, hopefully, these kind of threads will naturally diminish in frequency, too.