Scribing, pvp, sets, and "the cycle"
DigiAngel
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Hey all!
Soooooo....after my previous questions about the new Gold Road.....well....feels like scibing should just be in the base game, not paywalled. Why you may ask? Pay to win is why.
Now.....when people say pay to win...especially in a single player (let's say) game, or even just a game that's coop....saying it's "pay to win" (think Diablo 4, for example) is laughable. What do you "win" that you don't already win eventually anyway?? Usually I call those types of purchasing things for power...more like "pay to avoid tedium" or "pay to accelerate" (think like..level skips and what not).
But the pvp ramifications...if you DON'T BUY Gold Road....seems like you're going to be at a huge disadvantage. And that's pay to win...to me at least. Scribing should be in the base game...not locked. I probably won't buy it....for a while at least.
Next up....pvp. Yes...I know pvp isn't a focus for ZOS. But it would be nice to get at least SOME focus on pvp. I put a lot of effort (I'm not going to say work because that would make me sad thinking I "worked" at a game...I already work at work, don't need that here) in making some pvp characters. Only to be ready to get to the Cyro campaign, and see (in the tool tip at least) over an hour long wait. During the weekdays I get maybe 3 to 4 hours of gaming time a day ...and that's it. To have it eaten up by running around doing quests and other non-pvp (IC continues to be an unenjoyable gankfest,solo and BG is meh as it's not using CP) is a real drag...it would be nice to have a couple more campaign instances.
Sets....whoo boy. I've been killed a LOT by Tarnished. I didn't buy the DLC Dungeons (which honestly, the only reason I would, would be just for the set), so here again, I'm out of luck unless I pay up for the set. Yes...I know there are alternatives, but this one appears to be more powerful/instant damage then others. This goes hand in hand with "the cycle". The cycle is:
I've tried to avoid this cycle and I think I've done an ok job so far. But, ironically enough, pvp is where I'm tempted to give in.
Lastly, the event. Heh....I don't care about style pages at all. All my characters are either in Breton Heavy armor or the natural armor they wear, and are all black. That's it. I just don't care. I decided to try two geysers yesterday just for giggles...and yea...I can see what the complaints are about. With the boxes I've been getting with just normal game play I think the biggest things I've received are 3 perfect roe's. That's literally it. I've learned by now, with ZOS, there's always a catch...always. It may be trivial, but there's ALWAYS one there when it comes to goodies. Food for thought!
Soooooo....after my previous questions about the new Gold Road.....well....feels like scibing should just be in the base game, not paywalled. Why you may ask? Pay to win is why.
Now.....when people say pay to win...especially in a single player (let's say) game, or even just a game that's coop....saying it's "pay to win" (think Diablo 4, for example) is laughable. What do you "win" that you don't already win eventually anyway?? Usually I call those types of purchasing things for power...more like "pay to avoid tedium" or "pay to accelerate" (think like..level skips and what not).
But the pvp ramifications...if you DON'T BUY Gold Road....seems like you're going to be at a huge disadvantage. And that's pay to win...to me at least. Scribing should be in the base game...not locked. I probably won't buy it....for a while at least.
Next up....pvp. Yes...I know pvp isn't a focus for ZOS. But it would be nice to get at least SOME focus on pvp. I put a lot of effort (I'm not going to say work because that would make me sad thinking I "worked" at a game...I already work at work, don't need that here) in making some pvp characters. Only to be ready to get to the Cyro campaign, and see (in the tool tip at least) over an hour long wait. During the weekdays I get maybe 3 to 4 hours of gaming time a day ...and that's it. To have it eaten up by running around doing quests and other non-pvp (IC continues to be an unenjoyable gankfest,solo and BG is meh as it's not using CP) is a real drag...it would be nice to have a couple more campaign instances.
Sets....whoo boy. I've been killed a LOT by Tarnished. I didn't buy the DLC Dungeons (which honestly, the only reason I would, would be just for the set), so here again, I'm out of luck unless I pay up for the set. Yes...I know there are alternatives, but this one appears to be more powerful/instant damage then others. This goes hand in hand with "the cycle". The cycle is:
- ZOS releases new/op set/class/other paywalled
- Everyone and their mom buys it and uses it
- ZOS nerfs it in a future update
- Repeat
I've tried to avoid this cycle and I think I've done an ok job so far. But, ironically enough, pvp is where I'm tempted to give in.
Lastly, the event. Heh....I don't care about style pages at all. All my characters are either in Breton Heavy armor or the natural armor they wear, and are all black. That's it. I just don't care. I decided to try two geysers yesterday just for giggles...and yea...I can see what the complaints are about. With the boxes I've been getting with just normal game play I think the biggest things I've received are 3 perfect roe's. That's literally it. I've learned by now, with ZOS, there's always a catch...always. It may be trivial, but there's ALWAYS one there when it comes to goodies. Food for thought!
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beer781993✭✭✭✭Eso was always pay to win. Maybe not so much on PC bc of addons but on consoles the Armory helper let's you swap quickly which means you can port out of a trial, switch items and get pulled in by your group. It's way faster than using your house. The point is you will be faster and ofc place #1 in leaderboards.
How do you call the arcanist class in PVE? Yea, pay to win... Top leaderboard scores last patch and even this patch It's meta.
The banker is in my opinion also pay to win. You can get sth quickly in a leaderboard run. Not the greatest advantage but it's still an advantage.
Mythics ---> pay to win... You can't do top scores without them.
Same in PvP, show me a player in the top 10 rank with base game sets and without a Mythic...
Boxes are ultra easy to get. Just do daily crafting writs with all chars and you get tons of stuff. Millions in gold if you sell at the right time of the year.
Edited by beer781993 on April 20, 2024 12:41PM4 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Name a liveservice game where the meta something or other isn't contained in the newest content?1 -
OsUfi✭✭✭✭✭
✭You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what "pay-to-win" is, and are confusing it with an MMO releasing new content to progress the game. Gold Road is not being sold as just "scribing", it's being sold as an entire expansion, new quests, new gear, new skills, new story, new land mass, new things to do.
If an expansion was purely sold on one single item which gave you an advantage, I could absolutely see your point of view. But that's most certainly not the case with ESO.
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DigiAngel✭✭✭✭✭You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what "pay-to-win" is, and are confusing it with an MMO releasing new content to progress the game. Gold Road is not being sold as just "scribing", it's being sold as an entire expansion, new quests, new gear, new skills, new story, new land mass, new things to do.
If an expansion was purely sold on one single item which gave you an advantage, I could absolutely see your point of view. But that's most certainly not the case with ESO.
Buying power is pay to win....as I understand it. Whether it's included in a mass of other things well...yea I guess that's the line isn't it? I guess it's glass half full/half empty kinda:
Gee this new $40 dollar update has LOADS of new content! It also has this little scriby thing over here.
Gee this new $40 dollar update has this COOL scribing skill line that will power boost my character. And it's got some new content as well.
Either way, money is exchanged, power is received...only or bundled.
That said, pretty sure ZOS will gate scribing behind something...there's always a catch
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Stafford197✭✭✭✭✭You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what "pay-to-win" is, and are confusing it with an MMO releasing new content to progress the game. Gold Road is not being sold as just "scribing", it's being sold as an entire expansion, new quests, new gear, new skills, new story, new land mass, new things to do.
If an expansion was purely sold on one single item which gave you an advantage, I could absolutely see your point of view. But that's most certainly not the case with ESO.
This is not sound logic. If Gold Road had a Mythic ring item which increased all damage done by 1000%, your logic would dictate that ESO is still not pay-to-win.
Pay to win is a spectrum. Scribing is absolutely pay-to-win and cannot be compared to the typical new chapter power creep via new sets. This is especially true if you’re a PvPer, since the primary thing you will experience due to Gold Road is an influx of far more powerful Player opponents who utilize Scribes abilities. Want to be on an even playing field? Pay $40.
There’s nothing wrong with still being super excited for Scribing to launch. I am and I can still acknowledge that Scribing is P2W.0 -
tsaescishoeshiner✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭With the way you define pay-to-win, the only way to prevent it is to release no new sets that are worthwhile in new content. That's the only way to make the purchase give people who enjoy combat new toys and tools to play with.
I see it as pay-to-participate in the complete combat experience in the game. Don't wanna pay to use new sets? That's fine. But it's not unfair of other players to use Mythic items.
Just because there's a logical line between "purchasing DLC" and "acquiring new strong gear" doesn't make it pay-to-win. You have to buy ESO basegame in order to play. And you have to buy newer content in order to keep playing the whole game in all its detail and opportunity. It's like buying cards in a trading card game—they're not pay-to-win even though payment confers a benefit, they're just crazy expensive to play competitively.
The "cycle" is also made up mostly of confirmation bias. Note how there are no major nerfs on the PTS to last year's trial sets. But everytime things from the last year or in the meta get nerfed, it's seen as a ploy to sell the new chapter. Yet when that doesn't happen, those people never say "Oh new evidence, let me apply that to my theory" lol. I think people are looking for signs that they're being taken advantage of or tricked, and so sometimes that's all they see.
That said, Guild Wars 2 has a PvP mode where everyone's on the same playing field as far as gear (I forget if the expansion-only specialitizations are locked in sPvP). So there's certainly room for games to cut back on the need to pay for new content. Except that content is why people play and buy games lol so.
I hope you enjoy the basegame after Gold Road anyway. Seems like we'll have two big updates without new content to buy, so base game win?PC-NA
in-game: @tsaescishoeshiner1 -
OtarTheMad✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭People throw around pay to win so much in this game with each chapter that it’s lost all meaning.
Pay to win, at least to me and some others I know, means that you cannot complete the game, aka win, without that item or thing and that’s just not the case with ESO.
You can complete this game with even a broken, clunky necro class so what exactly am I paying to win? Bragging rights? A bigger “thing” to slap on the table to win a measuring contest? I am confused.
People did all the content before Scribing and will do it after Scribing too… whether they have the chapter or not or use the skills or not.3 -
Stafford197✭✭✭✭✭OtarTheMad wrote: »People throw around pay to win so much in this game with each chapter that it’s lost all meaning.
Pay to win, at least to me and some others I know, means that you cannot complete the game, aka win, without that item or thing and that’s just not the case with ESO.
You can complete this game with even a broken, clunky necro class so what exactly am I paying to win? Bragging rights? A bigger “thing” to slap on the table to win a measuring contest? I am confused.
People did all the content before Scribing and will do it after Scribing too… whether they have the chapter or not or use the skills or not.
So if we get a Mythic which increases damage done by 1000%, your logic is that it is not pay-to-win because you don’t need that item to beat the game. Got it.0 -
OtarTheMad✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Stafford197 wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »People throw around pay to win so much in this game with each chapter that it’s lost all meaning.
Pay to win, at least to me and some others I know, means that you cannot complete the game, aka win, without that item or thing and that’s just not the case with ESO.
You can complete this game with even a broken, clunky necro class so what exactly am I paying to win? Bragging rights? A bigger “thing” to slap on the table to win a measuring contest? I am confused.
People did all the content before Scribing and will do it after Scribing too… whether they have the chapter or not or use the skills or not.
So if we get a Mythic which increases damage done by 1000%, your logic is that it is not pay-to-win because you don’t need that item to beat the game. Got it.
Kind of literally in the name pay to WIN. You and I face the same boss but in different instances, we both kill them but you have that mythic and I don’t… what did you win? Maybe getting to the snacks on your desk faster?
I mean you could call it Pay to kill things faster or pay for options. Thats all I have ever seen new stuff introduced with chapters, they are just options. You don’t HAVE to have them to beat anything in the game.
Even with PvP, just because I have that mythic or Scribing and the person I am fighting does not. That doesn’t mean I automatically win, there is still skill involved and I could get just face planted into Oblivion.
Edited by OtarTheMad on April 20, 2024 7:21PM1 -
Stafford197✭✭✭✭✭OtarTheMad wrote: »Stafford197 wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »People throw around pay to win so much in this game with each chapter that it’s lost all meaning.
Pay to win, at least to me and some others I know, means that you cannot complete the game, aka win, without that item or thing and that’s just not the case with ESO.
You can complete this game with even a broken, clunky necro class so what exactly am I paying to win? Bragging rights? A bigger “thing” to slap on the table to win a measuring contest? I am confused.
People did all the content before Scribing and will do it after Scribing too… whether they have the chapter or not or use the skills or not.
So if we get a Mythic which increases damage done by 1000%, your logic is that it is not pay-to-win because you don’t need that item to beat the game. Got it.
Kind of literally in the name pay to WIN. You and I face the same boss, we both kill them but you have that mythic and I don’t… what did you win? Maybe getting to the snacks on your desk faster?
I mean you could call it Pay to kill things faster or pay for options. Thats all I have ever seen new stuff introduced with chapters, they are just options. You don’t HAVE to have them to beat anything in the game.
Even with PvP, just because I have that mythic or Scribing and the person I am fighting does not. That doesn’t mean I automatically win, there is still skill involved and I could get just face planted into Oblivion.
I understand your perspective, it makes sense but we will likely agree to disagree on this.
The way you describe it would also mean ESO cannot even become P2W no matter what happens, since “winning” at ESO is ambiguous in definition based on the content the player enjoys.
And what about people who pay cash to buy Crowns, sell it for Gold, and then buy carries to accomplish tasks which for them was considered the “win” they wanted but never could have achieved alone - isn’t that pay-to-win from your definition? (I personally wouldn’t call this game pay-to-win based on this)
My position is ESO is not pay-to-win, but also that the concept of pay-to-win as a whole is a spectrum instead of a “Yes It Is” or “No It Isn’t” kind of deal. Chapters introduce power creep which is a fun and normal thing in MMOs. I think arguments for pay-to-win can be made when certain Mythics are there to push players to make a chapter purchase they otherwise might not have since it will get them a big power boost, and Scribing is really just a more extreme version of that scenario. But I also would say ESO has never done anything that is truly a big eyebrow raiser pay-to-win issue.0 -
OtarTheMad✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Stafford197 wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »Stafford197 wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »People throw around pay to win so much in this game with each chapter that it’s lost all meaning.
Pay to win, at least to me and some others I know, means that you cannot complete the game, aka win, without that item or thing and that’s just not the case with ESO.
You can complete this game with even a broken, clunky necro class so what exactly am I paying to win? Bragging rights? A bigger “thing” to slap on the table to win a measuring contest? I am confused.
People did all the content before Scribing and will do it after Scribing too… whether they have the chapter or not or use the skills or not.
So if we get a Mythic which increases damage done by 1000%, your logic is that it is not pay-to-win because you don’t need that item to beat the game. Got it.
Kind of literally in the name pay to WIN. You and I face the same boss, we both kill them but you have that mythic and I don’t… what did you win? Maybe getting to the snacks on your desk faster?
I mean you could call it Pay to kill things faster or pay for options. Thats all I have ever seen new stuff introduced with chapters, they are just options. You don’t HAVE to have them to beat anything in the game.
Even with PvP, just because I have that mythic or Scribing and the person I am fighting does not. That doesn’t mean I automatically win, there is still skill involved and I could get just face planted into Oblivion.
I understand your perspective, it makes sense but we will likely agree to disagree on this.
The way you describe it would also mean ESO cannot even become P2W no matter what happens, since “winning” at ESO is ambiguous in definition based on the content the player enjoys.
And what about people who pay cash to buy Crowns, sell it for Gold, and then buy carries to accomplish tasks which for them was considered the “win” they wanted but never could have achieved alone - isn’t that pay-to-win from your definition? (I personally wouldn’t call this game pay-to-win based on this)
My position is ESO is not pay-to-win, but also that the concept of pay-to-win as a whole is a spectrum instead of a “Yes It Is” or “No It Isn’t” kind of deal. Chapters introduce power creep which is a fun and normal thing in MMOs. I think arguments for pay-to-win can be made when certain Mythics are there to push players to make a chapter purchase they otherwise might not have since it will get them a big power boost, and Scribing is really just a more extreme version of that scenario. But I also would say ESO has never done anything that is truly a big eyebrow raiser pay-to-win issue.
Hey and that’s fine, that we will likely agree to disagree. Nothing wrong with that. I can see your point of view and it makes sense too, just not how I look at it.
I don’t remember the exact details or when but I do remember a time when I felt ZOS was pushing it but they really walk that line well lol.
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