PVP instant deaths

Tommy_The_Gun · March 29

I might be wrong, but looking at your death recap and adding up damage, it seems like you have sub 30K max health. If that is the case, then being this low on max health in Cyro is basically like shouting out loud: Ganker, I ma here, please one shot me !

Your Health bar is the 1st thing that enemy see and the lower your max health is, then chances are some one in stealth who can pick a target will pick lowest max health target possible.

Aurielle · March 29

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I might be wrong, but looking at your death recap and adding up damage, it seems like you have sub 30K max health. If that is the case, then being this low on max health in Cyro is basically like shouting out loud: Ganker, I ma here, please one shot me !

Your Health bar is the 1st thing that enemy see and the lower your max health is, then chances are some one in stealth who can pick a target will pick lowest max health target possible.

Death recap only shows the five most recent skills / procs that killed you.

Parrot1986 · March 29

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I might be wrong, but looking at your death recap and adding up damage, it seems like you have sub 30K max health. If that is the case, then being this low on max health in Cyro is basically like shouting out loud: Ganker, I ma here, please one shot me !

Your Health bar is the 1st thing that enemy see and the lower your max health is, then chances are some one in stealth who can pick a target will pick lowest max health target possible.

Not sure if this is reference to my death recap or another but if mines I’ve got 31-34k health depending on fete stacks and 34k resistances. Can’t recall my crit resist, but do only use 2 pieces impen but regardless that’s hardly going to make a difference with that sort of raw damage output.

KKolly · March 29

Parrot1986 wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I might be wrong, but looking at your death recap and adding up damage, it seems like you have sub 30K max health. If that is the case, then being this low on max health in Cyro is basically like shouting out loud: Ganker, I ma here, please one shot me !

Your Health bar is the 1st thing that enemy see and the lower your max health is, then chances are some one in stealth who can pick a target will pick lowest max health target possible.

Not sure if this is reference to my death recap or another but if mines I’ve got 31-34k health depending on fete stacks and 34k resistances. Can’t recall my crit resist, but do only use 2 pieces impen but regardless that’s hardly going to make a difference with that sort of raw damage output.

I assume they mean the OPs who took 5k Tarnished procs + 30k in assorted damage and are dying because their build is likely lacking.

You are right though, no build will save you from the Tarnished exploit unless youre just running a block tank. You can even die from it inside of a ballgroup that is stacking a group worth of HoTs, which goes to show just how broken it is. (Im all for anti-ballgroup sets, but this is just flat out an anti-fun set as its being used right now. FWIW 5k procs being normal in Cyro is already a very strong ballgroup counter and I like the set where it is ignoring the exploit.)

Aldoss · March 29

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Death 1:
Ok, I got some dmg from jumping but not that much:

As others have pointed out, the death recap is actually a really bad metric for understanding why you died. I'm kind of shocked at how much it leaves out and how it hasn't really been changed.

The recap isn't showing you light or heavy attacks, of which we know there's at least one melee heavy attack there because Maarselok got proc'd.

Additionally, it won't show status hits and we know 2 of them happened because Lethal Arrow applied poisoned and Tarnished applies Sundered, guaranteed.

Without any of that, you took 26,050 dmg and I assume you were on your horse since I see the horse in the screenshot, got knocked off with the bow hits, and that allowed the opponent to get close to you to land the melee heavy attack.

With all of that, this wasn't a gank and it wasn't a one shot, so I'm not sure what you're shocked at. Had you not been low stamina to get knocked off the horse, you would have had a moment to break from the stun. The magnum would have also put you 8m away from the opponent who wouldn't have been able to get Maarselok on you in less than a second.

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Death 2 is more suspicious as I have no idea where I got the "Fallschaden" (damage from falling down) from. I was just walking and running in a small mellee

This one has two names in it and again some status effects being left out. The game absolutely glitches sometimes and causes people to take random fall damage. Really frustrating when that happens, but not something anyone can necessarily exploit against a target.

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Here death 3:

This one is likely the same as the first. They hit you with ranged attacks and were still able to get inside melee range to heavy attack (not shown) and hit an impale execute on you.

Nothing here is suspect to me.

Scaletho · March 29

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

I ventured into cyrodiil and got insta killed three times in a row by the same player and I even did not see him/her. I heard one single sound and me dead. First time I was on a mount and got insta killed like that together with my horse that was killed along the process.

Is this normal?

Ok, my character is not a tank, but usually I manage to at least a few seconds to stay alive before I die. Even gankers don't kill me that fast usually.

I've made three screenshots of the damage screen and I can post it here after removing all names.

Strange thing is, that when I sum up the damage the value is below my health.

My friend, ZOS PVP is more and more for endgame, god mode players. Stay away of this mess.

No more chance: either you kill or mange to survive mere second or two. There are no fair fights anymore. Only ganking or childish aggressiveness.

Ezhh · March 29

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

As I am the OP I'd like to emphasize that i did not claim to have been a certain victim of an exploit although I was not sure about it either. Because of that instantaneousity of the hits that killed me (and my horse). It felt more like getting one hit that killed me. And this looked weird. I however also considered some computer or latency issues as possible reason for me not getting cues about preceeding hits so it looked to me like I only got one but got more in fact.

Though there is an exploit involving the set being used in the examples you posted, the exploit isn't being used in these cases and you are taking the expected/correct amount of damage from the set. (I am not going to explain how the exploit works for obvious reasons.)

You might need to look at how much HP you have and what your resistances are, and whether or not you keep up your buffs. I suspect from the screenshots they are too low to survive well in PvP, and people will realise that and single you out as a target. You say the same player killed you three times in a row, so this is quite obviously the case.

-

Something that may help you understand what's going on: certain skills have a delay to them which means it's sometimes possible to make two skills land more or less together. A lot of "instant" kills rely on this to some degree, but it's definitely not the only (or really even the main) issue here. That's why I'd say look at your hp/resists to be less of a target to begin with.

-

As I think others have said, death recap isn't very reliable. You can't see from it when damage was actually taken, so you could also be encountering some kind of HP desync where you think you are at full health but you are not. Then someone breathes on you and you fall over. If you are on PC, take a look at addons like advanced death recap, or learn to use combat metrics (it must be enabled in the options to log during PvP, but it will let you check when each thing did damage to you, so you can check if it was really an instant death). These things can give a much more realistic idea of what's going on.

AnduinTryggva · March 29

Aldoss wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Death 1:
Ok, I got some dmg from jumping but not that much:

As others have pointed out, the death recap is actually a really bad metric for understanding why you died. I'm kind of shocked at how much it leaves out and how it hasn't really been changed.

The recap isn't showing you light or heavy attacks, of which we know there's at least one melee heavy attack there because Maarselok got proc'd.

Additionally, it won't show status hits and we know 2 of them happened because Lethal Arrow applied poisoned and Tarnished applies Sundered, guaranteed.

Without any of that, you took 26,050 dmg and I assume you were on your horse since I see the horse in the screenshot, got knocked off with the bow hits, and that allowed the opponent to get close to you to land the melee heavy attack.

With all of that, this wasn't a gank and it wasn't a one shot, so I'm not sure what you're shocked at. Had you not been low stamina to get knocked off the horse, you would have had a moment to break from the stun. The magnum would have also put you 8m away from the opponent who wouldn't have been able to get Maarselok on you in less than a second.

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Death 2 is more suspicious as I have no idea where I got the "Fallschaden" (damage from falling down) from. I was just walking and running in a small mellee

This one has two names in it and again some status effects being left out. The game absolutely glitches sometimes and causes people to take random fall damage. Really frustrating when that happens, but not something anyone can necessarily exploit against a target.

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Here death 3:

This one is likely the same as the first. They hit you with ranged attacks and were still able to get inside melee range to heavy attack (not shown) and hit an impale execute on you.

Nothing here is suspect to me.

Thanks for your analysis. I fully agree the death recap is crap as it is now. We need also time stamps for each hit and more information on the inbetween and information about every hit that contributed to a death.

I was not shocked of dieing (so easily) in itself but - and this I cannnot show with screenshots - I received ZERO clue that I was attacked and then I heard a sort of hit sound and I (and my horse in the first case) were dead immediately with the ending of the sound (that's the "instant" part of the thread title. No delay or anything. An accoustic bang and dead.

For me it looked like these skills shown in the death recap hit me all at once. But we know that there is - or should be - a cooldown so you cannot cast several skills simultaneously. In case one, there is no way that the two bow skills could hit me simultaneously.

Vulkunne · March 30

Scaletho wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

I ventured into cyrodiil and got insta killed three times in a row by the same player and I even did not see him/her. I heard one single sound and me dead. First time I was on a mount and got insta killed like that together with my horse that was killed along the process.

Is this normal?

Ok, my character is not a tank, but usually I manage to at least a few seconds to stay alive before I die. Even gankers don't kill me that fast usually.

I've made three screenshots of the damage screen and I can post it here after removing all names.

Strange thing is, that when I sum up the damage the value is below my health.

My friend, ZOS PVP is more and more for endgame, god mode players. Stay away of this mess.

No more chance: either you kill or mange to survive mere second or two. There are no fair fights anymore. Only ganking or childish aggressiveness.

I agree with this but I dunno if I'd call being aggressive 'childish'.

My contribution to this thought is zone and guild officers and others with all this fake authority need to stop running down solos and others who are actually out there trying and in many cases succeeding in what we do. Because when they do this people get tired of their attitudes and leave. Everyone wants a ball group but myself and others have said it to the point the thought is permanently etched in subspace somewhere that a group cannot be in two places at the same time.

This is why small groups of solo, even unorganized groups are so valuable. But there's this hate out against us like this for say one or two solos taking on a ball group but the first steps are always the hardest. Like on AD on Blackreach there's this PvP Guild always talking against Elites but its ok when 'their' Elites do things. And then they put everyone else down whose trying to do something. I dunno, I'm not trying to turn this into an angry rant but I remember a time when PvP had a different vibe to it and these days it seems like its all about the wrong things. Like other games and others things I eventually left after rotten people corrupted them completely, even though some of us were there long before them.

It just doesn't seem fair.

katanagirl1 · March 30

Vulkunne wrote: »

Scaletho wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

I ventured into cyrodiil and got insta killed three times in a row by the same player and I even did not see him/her. I heard one single sound and me dead. First time I was on a mount and got insta killed like that together with my horse that was killed along the process.

Is this normal?

Ok, my character is not a tank, but usually I manage to at least a few seconds to stay alive before I die. Even gankers don't kill me that fast usually.

I've made three screenshots of the damage screen and I can post it here after removing all names.

Strange thing is, that when I sum up the damage the value is below my health.

My friend, ZOS PVP is more and more for endgame, god mode players. Stay away of this mess.

No more chance: either you kill or mange to survive mere second or two. There are no fair fights anymore. Only ganking or childish aggressiveness.

I agree with this but I dunno if I'd call being aggressive 'childish'.

My contribution to this thought is zone and guild officers and others with all this fake authority need to stop running down solos and others who are actually out there trying and in many cases succeeding in what we do. Because when they do this people get tired of their attitudes and leave. Everyone wants a ball group but myself and others have said it to the point the thought is permanently etched in subspace somewhere that a group cannot be in two places at the same time.

This is why small groups of solo, even unorganized groups are so valuable. But there's this hate out against us like this for say one or two solos taking on a ball group but the first steps are always the hardest. Like on AD on Blackreach there's this PvP Guild always talking against Elites but its ok when 'their' Elites do things. And then they put everyone else down whose trying to do something. I dunno, I'm not trying to turn this into an angry rant but I remember a time when PvP had a different vibe to it and these days it seems like its all about the wrong things. Like other games and others things I eventually left after rotten people corrupted them completely, even though some of us were there long before them.

It just doesn't seem fair.

You make a good point. I solo myself, because groups do not show up to defend home keeps, and this is where ball groups are the most problematic.

Many times enough of us show up and eliminate the ball group. Sometimes not. We are told to just leave them alone and they will leave, but generally not before they take the keep and defend it for a significant amount of time. Once they take it, it can be a while before enough players show up to take it back, too.

I admit I am not a “god mode player”, but I am someone who takes PvP seriously and has played in the main campaign almost daily for many years. We can make a difference.

EDIT: typo

merevie · March 30

Direct damage can be reflected.
Undaunted -bone shield morph -anyone can get
Several classes also have reflect skills.
Ancient Dragonguard set will auto-swap between damage/defense according to your health.
There's several monster helms that'll also help.

If even a couple of people around you are reflecting things back, the Tarnished exploiter is in serious trouble.

Vulkunne · March 30

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Scaletho wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

I ventured into cyrodiil and got insta killed three times in a row by the same player and I even did not see him/her. I heard one single sound and me dead. First time I was on a mount and got insta killed like that together with my horse that was killed along the process.

Is this normal?

Ok, my character is not a tank, but usually I manage to at least a few seconds to stay alive before I die. Even gankers don't kill me that fast usually.

I've made three screenshots of the damage screen and I can post it here after removing all names.

Strange thing is, that when I sum up the damage the value is below my health.

My friend, ZOS PVP is more and more for endgame, god mode players. Stay away of this mess.

No more chance: either you kill or mange to survive mere second or two. There are no fair fights anymore. Only ganking or childish aggressiveness.

I agree with this but I dunno if I'd call being aggressive 'childish'.

My contribution to this thought is zone and guild officers and others with all this fake authority need to stop running down solos and others who are actually out there trying and in many cases succeeding in what we do. Because when they do this people get tired of their attitudes and leave. Everyone wants a ball group but myself and others have said it to the point the thought is permanently etched in subspace somewhere that a group cannot be in two places at the same time.

This is why small groups of solo, even unorganized groups are so valuable. But there's this hate out against us like this for say one or two solos taking on a ball group but the first steps are always the hardest. Like on AD on Blackreach there's this PvP Guild always talking against Elites but its ok when 'their' Elites do things. And then they put everyone else down whose trying to do something. I dunno, I'm not trying to turn this into an angry rant but I remember a time when PvP had a different vibe to it and these days it seems like its all about the wrong things. Like other games and others things I eventually left after rotten people corrupted them completely, even though some of us were there long before them.

It just doesn't seem fair.

You make a good point. I solo myself, because groups do not show up to defend home keeps, and this is where ball groups are the most problematic.

Many times enough of us show up and eliminate the ball group. Sometimes not. We are told to just leave them alone and they will leave, but generally not before they take the keep and defend it for a significant amount of time. Once they take it, it can be a while before enough players show up to take it back, too.

I admit I am not a “god mode player”, but I am someone who takes PvP seriously and has played in the main campaign almost daily for many years. We can make a difference.

EDIT: typo

Well said. In fact, this is the very thing sometimes I wish others would say, you know what I mean? Still, we cannot have everything we want, and I thank you for taking a stand on this issue. Hopefully more will do the same, even if we cannot hold on to the things we like about PvP forever, the fact that we know how good things was (or could have been), gives us some ability to push back. However, this is only if we are allowing those things to continue to 'live' thru our actions in spite of it all.

The day we stop caring, is the day the game ends because there will be no one left who knows anything different than what someone else tries to 'enforce' on them, even over TOS. And they show no sign of stopping. Good hunting my friend.