If DDs and fake healers would go ahead and stop dying in normal dungeons, that would be great

frogthroat · March 19

Please note I am not talking about inexperienced players here. Dying in normal dungeons is fine if you are not used to them.

What I am talking about is DDs and fake healers who pull the trash mobs and/or bosses before a tank can taunt them. I am farming the new dungeons as a tank and after 40ish runs it's only once I have had the time to get my major resolve up before a fake healer or a DD either lightning staff heavy attacks or stampedes past me. And then get one shotted and complain about me not taking the boss. If you can't wait for one GCD that I can poke them with pierce armor, go ahead. I'm in there only for the weapons for my sticker book anyway. But if you do, don't die. Either wait until I have poked the boss once or survive the first hit. Up to you but don't complain if you stampede past me and get one shotted.

I'm not even a tank main but I start to understand why people don't want to tank in this game. Soon my sticker book is full and I will stop tanking these dungeons.

Necrotech_Master · March 19

for me i usually try to make a minigame out of it lol

if the dps or fake heals rush ahead of me while im tanking and they die, i will refuse to rez them, or taunt anything once i actually get there

i consider that their punishment for not playing as a group, or if they are rushing ahead it must mean they want to tank everything lol

if its really bad, like if someone rushes ahead and pulls everyone into the first boss, causing a wipe due to some mechanic, ill just leave the dungeon (had this happen on scalecaller peak once, someone rushed all the way to first boss, died and then while we were all "joining combat in progress" we ended up dying to the mechanic where the bosses were too close to each other with the poison auras, which are still deadly on normal and we all ended up wiping, i immediately left group)

LadyLavina · March 19

frogthroat wrote: »

Please note I am not talking about inexperienced players here. Dying in normal dungeons is fine if you are not used to them.

What I am talking about is DDs and fake healers who pull the trash mobs and/or bosses before a tank can taunt them. I am farming the new dungeons as a tank and after 40ish runs it's only once I have had the time to get my major resolve up before a fake healer or a DD either lightning staff heavy attacks or stampedes past me. And then get one shotted and complain about me not taking the boss. If you can't wait for one GCD that I can poke them with pierce armor, go ahead. I'm in there only for the weapons for my sticker book anyway. But if you do, don't die. Either wait until I have poked the boss once or survive the first hit. Up to you but don't complain if you stampede past me and get one shotted.

I'm not even a tank main but I start to understand why people don't want to tank in this game. Soon my sticker book is full and I will stop tanking these dungeons.

The way I see it for normal dungeons as far as pulling non-bosses goes,

Tank doesn't really need to in most cases (at least for the majority of the vanilla dungeons). I'm usually tank, but I've run with normal dungeon tanks who for whatever reason get all bent out of shape if I'm healing and pull things, even though nobody ever dies when I do/it doesn't screw anything up. (i.e. not a problem)

Basically, if you're going to rush and pull big piles of mobs, make sure you're not getting yourself or others killed in the process.

The tanks who get all uppity if you pull things with non-problematic circumstances surrounding it need to seriously chill.

Soarora · March 19

LadyLavina wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

Please note I am not talking about inexperienced players here. Dying in normal dungeons is fine if you are not used to them.

What I am talking about is DDs and fake healers who pull the trash mobs and/or bosses before a tank can taunt them. I am farming the new dungeons as a tank and after 40ish runs it's only once I have had the time to get my major resolve up before a fake healer or a DD either lightning staff heavy attacks or stampedes past me. And then get one shotted and complain about me not taking the boss. If you can't wait for one GCD that I can poke them with pierce armor, go ahead. I'm in there only for the weapons for my sticker book anyway. But if you do, don't die. Either wait until I have poked the boss once or survive the first hit. Up to you but don't complain if you stampede past me and get one shotted.

I'm not even a tank main but I start to understand why people don't want to tank in this game. Soon my sticker book is full and I will stop tanking these dungeons.

The way I see it for normal dungeons as far as pulling non-bosses goes,

Tank doesn't really need to in most cases (at least for the majority of the vanilla dungeons). I'm usually tank, but I've run with normal dungeon tanks who for whatever reason get all bent out of shape if I'm healing and pull things, even though nobody ever dies when I do/it doesn't screw anything up. (i.e. not a problem)

Basically, if you're going to rush and pull big piles of mobs, make sure you're not getting yourself or others killed in the process.

The tanks who get all uppity if you pull things with non-problematic circumstances surrounding it need to seriously chill.

Pulling before the tank isn't always a life-or-death thing as much as it's a "well now all the trash is running around and I have to work extra hard to stack them, so trash is actually going to die slower" thing.

LadyLavina · March 19

Soarora wrote: »

LadyLavina wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

Please note I am not talking about inexperienced players here. Dying in normal dungeons is fine if you are not used to them.

What I am talking about is DDs and fake healers who pull the trash mobs and/or bosses before a tank can taunt them. I am farming the new dungeons as a tank and after 40ish runs it's only once I have had the time to get my major resolve up before a fake healer or a DD either lightning staff heavy attacks or stampedes past me. And then get one shotted and complain about me not taking the boss. If you can't wait for one GCD that I can poke them with pierce armor, go ahead. I'm in there only for the weapons for my sticker book anyway. But if you do, don't die. Either wait until I have poked the boss once or survive the first hit. Up to you but don't complain if you stampede past me and get one shotted.

I'm not even a tank main but I start to understand why people don't want to tank in this game. Soon my sticker book is full and I will stop tanking these dungeons.

The way I see it for normal dungeons as far as pulling non-bosses goes,

Tank doesn't really need to in most cases (at least for the majority of the vanilla dungeons). I'm usually tank, but I've run with normal dungeon tanks who for whatever reason get all bent out of shape if I'm healing and pull things, even though nobody ever dies when I do/it doesn't screw anything up. (i.e. not a problem)

Basically, if you're going to rush and pull big piles of mobs, make sure you're not getting yourself or others killed in the process.

The tanks who get all uppity if you pull things with non-problematic circumstances surrounding it need to seriously chill.

Pulling before the tank isn't always a life-or-death thing as much as it's a "well now all the trash is running around and I have to work extra hard to stack them, so trash is actually going to die slower" thing.

This true lol, I guess I was looking more at the people simply getting upset that tank wasn't the one to pull.

meaning like the (rare, only encountered it a couple of times) folks who take a "how dare you" stance if tank isn't pulling, those folks typically aren't talking about increased effort, but i fully understand what you mean.

Am glad I'm usually tank and don't have to worry about this frequently xD

Pelanora · March 20

And I'm always at the back because who can even remember the way in these places, to run ahead lol

mocap · March 20

Players must raise HP of their healers to least 30-35k in dungeons. Stop living in 2018 when everyone was running around with 19k HP. It was an absolute massive mistake. This is why many players suffered in HM dungeons back then - in an attempt to increase DPS by a couple percent from resource pool, they die from a single thrash mob hit.

Resources have little effect on anything now, and sustain can be ramped up with enchants and/or heavy attacks.

Also HA DD builds must use 30-35k HP too, since they don't need magicka and sustain at all. And WPD/SPD have little to no effect on HA.

frogthroat · March 20

LadyLavina wrote: »

Basically, if you're going to rush and pull big piles of mobs, make sure you're not getting yourself or others killed in the process.

Yes, this is exactly my point. In normal dungeons, go ahead, pull the mobs. But don't die. Also, keep the mobs you aggroed in a pile so they die faster.

If you can't do both of those things, wait for one GCD that I can at least Void Bash them.

I'm in those two latest dungeons only for the weapons so I want it to go fast as well. If you don't have a pull ability, the mobs you aggroed are running around in all directions and if you die your dps is 0. All because you couldn't wait for one measly GCD. And if you do both of those mistakes, don't whine in group chat.

It doesn't take that long for me to void bash them and taunt the biggest ones. I want DDs and fake healers to show me they don't fail the Stanford Marshmallow Test.

(Not you you, of course. By you I mean the DDs and fake healers in my op.)

CenturionExplorer · March 20

It's like most other mmo's then, i've been dipping my feet a bit into tanking.
Same experience, usually when i see high cp peeps in my group i just do my own thing, they really don't need me. I just tag behind and get the passive experience points.

What works best for me when it comes to practicing rotation is using dummies and then analyze afterwards.
You can later then combine your dungeon knowledge and dummy practice to become a decent tank.

Trying to learn tanking in normal with pugs is just furtile, most are there for the rewards at the end after all.

ApoAlaia · March 20

Never understood that.

Getting an actual tank in a (normal) PUG is a rare privilege these days (best you can hope for is that the person who queued as tank slotted Inner Rage at least).

Why not just run instead of sprinting (thus not forcing the tank to burn through stam just to keep up) and let the tank... well, tank?

A well placed bonk with void bash more than makes up for the marginally slower 'travel time' between packs (and the yoink animation is sooooooo satisfying!).

frogthroat · March 20

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Getting an actual tank in a (normal) PUG is a rare privilege these days

This is the reason why I started this topic. I am not a tank main. I only take my tank out to pug runs when I am farming a dungeon because it's the fastest way to get to dungeons via the finder. But because of these pugs I will stop tanking with pugs the very moment my sticker book is full in these two new dungeons.

45 runs to go. Until now only 1 time everyone waited that I could collect the trash mobs and use my taunt at the boss.

Sakiri · March 22

Dying is fine. Pulling for the tank is rude, but fine, especially when they die. Rez and move on.

There's absolutely no reason to stress out about normal dungeons.

heng14rwb17_ESO · March 22

The skill level of the players must have dropped.
Use to be 4 DD go into dungeon.

frogthroat · March 23

Sakiri wrote: »

Dying is fine. Pulling for the tank is rude, but fine, especially when they die. Rez and move on.

There's absolutely no reason to stress out about normal dungeons.

Depends on what you are looking for. If you want to have tanks in the player pool, this is not the way. I don't stress too much about it, because 35 runs and I'm out.

I actually don't mind the pulling before the tank, as long as you deliver. Kill the mobs and we're good.

But if you stampede past me before I reach the mob/boss, die and then start complaining in the chat... yeah, I can 100% understand why tanks don't want to do pug runs. And even if you don't die, but only scatter all the mobs in different directions, that is deliberately making this slower and shows you don't value other players' time. Again, I can 100% understand why there is a tank shortage.

If it would have been more pleasant I might consider spending more time tanking, but as it is now, nah. I'll just fill my sticker book and go back to what I normally do.

merpins · March 23

The only time I as a DD die in a normal pug is if it's a newer, harder dungeon, and we have a fake healer. After I die once, I slot some kind of passive self heal, or just a regular emergency heal depending on my class, and don't die again, and that's only if I'm playing a class that doesn't have self healing from a spammable. No self heals only works if there is an actual healer, and I only die more than once if the group has no idea what they're doing and I'm on a toon that can't solo. Like my stam warden can't really solo harder dungeons, but my templar can in most dungeons.

It's a problem that's mainly perpetuated by fake tanks an healers. Not to say every DD is perfect, there's a lot that don't really do much. But fake tanks and healers can cause wipes. Just the other day, I was in a Ruins of Mazatun run, and the group kept wiping because both the tank and healer were fake, and I wasn't on a toon that could solo. The pace was super slow, ended up having to cut my losses and drop that group. I can help and teach newer players, but when they aren't trying to listen or two of the four aren't the correct roles, then there's no point. If there was no fake tanking and healing, this problem would basically disappear... For the most part, there'll always be new players that need to learn and people that refuse to learn.

Jaimeh · March 23

In normal PUGs if I'm on a tank I try to run ahead to initiate the pulls because I find most of the fun you get in normal runs as a (true) tank is basically making great stacks fast, but if the DDs are running way further ahead and pulling three rooms at once, I'm not going to mash my fingers to catch up (though I'll still taunt stuff when I get there because mobs being kited all over the place is not fun). I think a lot of inexperienced DDs tend to do these long agggros (or boss pulls) because they might have a lot of mitigation in their build (or run Oaken build) so they feel safe, but sometimes they do get swamped and just wipe, on the other hand most experienced DDs usually kill stuff before they get swamped and don't kite bosses if they aggro them because they know which attacks to dodge and so on.

Hotdog_23 · March 23

Another view. Generally, only DPS nowadays. No problem waiting in line. Just do other stuff while waiting for it to pop up. I generally get a hit within 10 minutes when I queue for normal or vet random.

The number of times I get a real tank on a normal is maybe 25% of the time, and that is being very generous. Vets are about 50–75% of the time. On normal runs, I will go ahead and pull everything to a spot and kill everything. The rare, and I mean rare, times I get a real tank that can group up adds I wait for him, but again, they are quite rare.

Nothing really bothers me, fake tank or healer. I just roll along. The one thing that does bother me is when a tank just refuses to do anything but stand around—no taunt or damage—because I didn’t let them dictate the speed of the dungeon and get prissy about it. When you do get to the boss, you can at least start to do the job you queued for and taunt the boss. If I pull before you, it’s on me to live until you get there.

Stay safe

boi_anachronism_ · March 23

Usually i can get ahead of the dps pretty easily but if you got a nb dps in your group that just aint gonna happen. Between celarity, major Expedition and minor Expedition being in their tool kit no tank gonna outrun em unless you are wearing ring of the wild hunt or something lol

NoTimeToWait · March 23

frogthroat wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

Dying is fine. Pulling for the tank is rude, but fine, especially when they die. Rez and move on.

There's absolutely no reason to stress out about normal dungeons.

Depends on what you are looking for. If you want to have tanks in the player pool, this is not the way. I don't stress too much about it, because 35 runs and I'm out.

I actually don't mind the pulling before the tank, as long as you deliver. Kill the mobs and we're good.

But if you stampede past me before I reach the mob/boss, die and then start complaining in the chat... yeah, I can 100% understand why tanks don't want to do pug runs. And even if you don't die, but only scatter all the mobs in different directions, that is deliberately making this slower and shows you don't value other players' time. Again, I can 100% understand why there is a tank shortage.

If it would have been more pleasant I might consider spending more time tanking, but as it is now, nah. I'll just fill my sticker book and go back to what I normally do.

If you care about clear time, why do you queue normals? Veteran dungeons (unless the latest DLCs) are cleared at around the same speed, even faster if you consider that you are less likely to get underperforming (20k DPS or less) DDs in veteran compared to normal and much more likely to get overperforming 100k+ dps DDs, which speeds up things even more.

In normals, I get people doing quests every third run, and they have the right to do these quests and read as much as they want. So the run will also be slower

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

When you do get to the boss, you can at least start to do the job you queued for and taunt the boss. If I pull before you, it’s on me to live until you get there.

Stay safe

Understandable. Also, don't get prissy if tank waits until you die and a boss resets. Because bosses are often tanked at specific spots or areas and DDs unfortunately can pull the boss too far away when pulling the boss alone

frogthroat · March 27

NoTimeToWait wrote: »

If you care about clear time, why do you queue normals? Veteran dungeons (unless the latest DLCs) are cleared at around the same speed

Doesn't matter any more. Just finished my sticker book, so no pug runs for me. But it was the two latest dungeons I was farming.

My main issue was with the complaining after dying. If you die because you can't wait for one GCD, don't complain.

The clear time is more about the principle. If you are new, or need to do quest, or even if you want to do the puzzles/side bosses I am no longer interested in, no matter. We can do those. We can take it slower. But if you delay this because you can't do even the most basic team play, that is where my issue is.

But like I said, it doesn't matter to me until the next dungeons come. Finished with the sticker book already, so I won't be tanking pug runs any more.

xclassgaming · March 27

even better: if fake tanks and fake heals were outright banned from the game from ruining the experience, that'd be so nice. Fake tanking and fake healing ruins the experience for other people, its one thing to do it in a group of four, go off. but into RNDs or even RVDs its just selffish and should be reportable as griefing and therefore lead to them being banned.

Quethrosar · March 27

or tanks could move faster ! Why should i waste time from my life for slow people ?
we only live so long !

IsharaMeradin · March 27

I will admit. I accidentally queued as a healer the other day. I had gone in a guild group as a healer with healing skills. But forgot to switch it back to damage dealer. The next time I went to run a pug dungeon, I queued without thinking about it. I was going to complain in my guild about the lack of healing in the pug run I had just finished, but then I saw that I was still flagged as healer.

There were some deaths, I did have a skill that could provide healing to the lowest health ally in front of me. But that certainly wasn't enough in the healing department. It was a normal dlc dungeon. No one called me out on it. I wish they had mentioned something earlier in the run, I would have fixed up my skills and actually performed the assigned role.

DrNukenstein · March 27

Fake tanking normals is so easy and makes the world a better place.

If you have a problem with it kick out your next fake tank and wait for a real one.

Jierdanit · March 27

xclassgaming wrote: »

even better: if fake tanks and fake heals were outright banned from the game from ruining the experience, that'd be so nice. Fake tanking and fake healing ruins the experience for other people, its one thing to do it in a group of four, go off. but into RNDs or even RVDs its just selffish and should be reportable as griefing and therefore lead to them being banned.

Literally no normal dungeon needs a healer if the dps aren't completely incompetent.
And tanks are also only needed in very few of them.

Fake tanking and to some extent fake healing in vet dungeons can definitely hurt the group, but in normal dungeons it's almost always better to go 3 dps and tank or even 4 dps.

frogthroat · March 27

Jierdanit wrote: »

in normal dungeons it's almost always better to go 3 dps and tank or even 4 dps.

As a healer main... I agree. Nothing to do in normal dungeons.

oldbobdude · March 28

This topic never dies.