PvP; What is really going on? How to fix it?

Ironside · January 16

In my opinion! PvP Battlegrounds are beyond broken and really turns off a lot of players, but especially new players. All my comments are about Battlegrounds ONLY. I think open world should remain "unchanged".

For the first part, it's a very serious question and I think the answer is latency even though I have a 50-100 ping. I come up on someone and I get deleted in one hit. On the log however, it shows like 7+ hits, all different abilities from light, heavy, to special attacks. Latency? Macros? Hacks? Mods? for real, what is happening? I seriously don't think 50-100 latency is enough to cause this 100% of the time, but I am curious what people think.

The other opinion is, I think gear should be locked in Battleground PvP to non-collectable, non-modifiable, non-ugradable pieces. I think ALL players should be on a 100% even playing field with gear that is equipped in the start of the match or pre-loaded before the match starts. But regardless 100% the same--that way if you die you know it was a skill issue. I don't think the uber elite trail gear should go against new or less privileged players, that just melts them. News flash, it's not fun. Please don't say "just do better" or whatever, that's what low IQ people say and you're better than that.

The other opinion is, Battleground PvP should have skill brackets/ratings EVEN WITHIN NON-RATED! What is stopping the top players in the world from grouping up and just melting every player in every non-rated match? A competitive non-rated match is fun, graveyard camped is not. It wasn't 30 years ago, it still isn't fun. I think there should be a "Rating"for competitive and a "skill" bracket for non-competetive. If you go in a match and K: 40 - D 0 - A: 80. You should not be placed in the following match as the guy who just got K: 0 - D 40 - A: 1 by the other player. Does the other "melted" player need to work on getting better? Yes!!! 100% factually yes. But you can't get better by being melted, it's not possible.

ZOS_Hadeostry · January 16

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic, as it's about Battlegrounds.

Thank you for your understanding

RetPing · January 16

BGs have been neglected and forgotten for many years and probably things will never change
At this pont I've started to think that giving them our opinions is just wasted time.

Laenendil · January 16

Devs do not seem to care about pvp since launch and if they do care they clearly have no clue about it. PVP has always been the neglected part of the game. PVP is kinda dead now, most campaigns are completely empty except on prime time and even then it's always the same names coming back. Kind of the same for battlegrounds.
In both cases newcomers are just rolled on and never come again only leaving a very weak percentage of the playerbase hooked.
We had a lot of great suggestions to improve pvp since launch, never got any implemented.

Necrotech_Master · January 16

its very feasible to have many things trigger off 1 attack

1x proc
up to 2x enchant (if dual wield)
dual wield heavy attack registers as 2 separate hits
status effects (vateshran destro + ele sus is like half a dozen effects at least: vateshran proc, major breach, burning, concussed (burst of dmg + minor vuln), chilled (burst of dmg + minor maim))

certain instant hit procs do have an internal cooldown so they cant proc simultaneously (if it applies effect immediately with no telegraph or delay, only 1 of these procs can happen per second)

if you can time delayed activation procs well, thats even more dmg that can happen though

React · January 16

I get the "you hit me with 10 abilities in one GCD" comment all the time, usually accompanied by "I'm reporting you for cheating." 99% of the time the player whispering this is obviously extremely inexperienced at PVP, and you can't really blame them for not understanding.

Here's what I can fit into one GCD for sure, followed by some potential secondary things.

for sure
2 instances of damage for a DW medium or heavy attack
2 glyph procs (I use absorb stam and shock, typically)
1 concealed weapon
1 bash

potential secondary procs
Sundered status - 1x damage proc
Concussed status - 1x damage proc
Overcharged status - 1x damage proc

Additionally, if you have elemental susceptibility and it happens to proc on its 7 second timer during that same GCD, you would then get

Burning status - 1x dot tick
Chilled status - 1x damage proc
Concussed status- 1x damage proc (this can proc multiple times in the same GCD from different sources)

Even further, if you are running any dots, any abilities like quick cloak or hurricane, etc you could see those things go off in the same global cooldown, possibly even proccing additional instances of status effect damage.

You could see as many as 12-15 inatances of damage in one GCD from a player who knows what theyre doing, possibly even more on specific niche builds.

CrazyKitty · January 16

The fix for PvP performance is more server resources dedicated to the zone. We've seen over and over again how performance improves when they add new servers and server resources, and what happens when they pull back resources, as they just did yet again a couple weeks ago.

So we know for an indisputable fact that what cyrodiil needs is more server resources. ZOS keeps adding zones to the game while never adding any server resources to the game. They just keep spreading the same server resources thinner and thinner and performance suffers, and it suffers the most in the end game content where high APM players gather.

SkaraMinoc · January 17

React wrote: »

I get the "you hit me with 10 abilities in one GCD" comment all the time, usually accompanied by "I'm reporting you for cheating." 99% of the time the player whispering this is obviously extremely inexperienced at PVP, and you can't really blame them for not understanding.

Here's what I can fit into one GCD for sure, followed by some potential secondary things.

for sure
2 instances of damage for a DW medium or heavy attack
2 glyph procs (I use absorb stam and shock, typically)
1 concealed weapon
1 bash

potential secondary procs
Sundered status - 1x damage proc
Concussed status - 1x damage proc
Overcharged status - 1x damage proc

Additionally, if you have elemental susceptibility and it happens to proc on its 7 second timer during that same GCD, you would then get

Burning status - 1x dot tick
Chilled status - 1x damage proc
Concussed status- 1x damage proc (this can proc multiple times in the same GCD from different sources)

Even further, if you are running any dots, any abilities like quick cloak or hurricane, etc you could see those things go off in the same global cooldown, possibly even proccing additional instances of status effect damage.

You could see as many as 12-15 inatances of damage in one GCD from a player who knows what theyre doing, possibly even more on specific niche builds.

This is my bash combo from range.

Overload @ 0 seconds
Crystal Weapon @ 0 seconds
Shield Charge @ 0 seconds
Bash @ 0.4 seconds
Deadlands Demolisher proc
Bash @ 0.8 seconds
Overload @ 0.9 seconds
Crystal Weapon @ 0.9 seconds
Power Slam @ 1 second
Hurricane
Quick Cloak
Backbar Flame/Foulness enchant
Double DoT poison 1
Double DoT poison 2
Poisoned status effect
Sundered status effect
Burning/Diseased status effect
Concussed status effect
Overcharged status effect

WIth Hrothgar+Chilled and Haunting Curse, that's 22 instances of damage in 1 second.

FlopsyPrince · January 17

I suck at PvP and it can be a very trying experience in ESO for me because of that.

I would probably be more open to it and learning if I could play with others who are just as bad as me. Nuking me in seconds may seem fun for some, but it makes it a horrible experience for me, thus it drives me a way.

Too many here say that is "working as intended" which is likely wrong or it would mean ZOS doesn't want many of us to even try PvP.

React · January 17

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

I suck at PvP and it can be a very trying experience in ESO for me because of that.

I would probably be more open to it and learning if I could play with others who are just as bad as me. Nuking me in seconds may seem fun for some, but it makes it a horrible experience for me, thus it drives me a way.

Too many here say that is "working as intended" which is likely wrong or it would mean ZOS doesn't want many of us to even try PvP.

You should try queueing up for BGs. At your skill level, you will get into BGs with players of similar skill. Occasionally you'll run across a high level player on a new character with 0 MMR stomping your lobby, but for the most part I think you'll find it to be a relatively fair experience.

As for these mechanics, they absolutely are working as intended. In fact, apart from status effects being too prevalent/overpowered currently, the old combat system with full animation cancelling was even more fast paced and punishing to inexperienced players than the modern one.

El_Borracho · January 17

BGs is already no CP. You really shouldn't go into one if you are below Level 50, you will get wrecked. If you were to reduce gear to one basic set everyone has to wear, that would only benefit experienced BG players. By A LOT. Making something "more accessible" to newer or inexperienced players, like BGs, only gives experienced players a larger advantage. Proc sets actually even the playing field for players who are new to BGs.

The gear sets commonly found in BGs are pretty basic. Way of Fire, Hrothgar's, Mara's Balm, Rally Cry, Order's Wrath, Wretched Vitality, Deadly Strike, and Dragon's Appetite are the most common I've seen. All are either overland, craftable, or purchasable through guild traders. Burning Spellweave and Rush of Agony are really the only 2 dungeon sets that regularly appear that I can think of off the top of my head. Vateshran staves and Master's weapons can be obtained on normal. Again, not hard to get.

I do like an idea of gating BGs to skill level. I think @Necrotech_Master once suggested a system like ToT which does a decent job of matching similarly-skilled players in ranked matches. But its going to be tough with the very low population in BGs.

moo_2021 · January 18

deadly strike for arcanists, purchasable, though pricey now

clever alchemist seem common among pros who occasionally pop up very high damage, always with high resistance builds. craftable.

I have seen deaths by Scavenging Demise Set that hits like 8k, specific to poison attack

nobody mention oakensoul ring? It only took me 2 days. Needs an addon to notify Volcanic Vents, and Petrified Oak Loop requires a quiet time for a particular safebox that's always spawned in the same location.

RetPing · January 18

Why would you like to change something?
They just said they have "an amazing pvp system" in the global reveal.

Ironside · January 19

I appreciate all of the feedback. I'm probably just not going to play ESO PvP. I'll get my PvP niche somewhere else...

I am now convinced everyone should all be nude, no abilities allowed and all just throwing punches. It would be more fun for everyone.

----

RetPing wrote: »

Why would you like to change something?
They just said they have "an amazing pvp system" in the global reveal.

LOL! I listened to that during the live stream and did an Epic Eyeroll.

moo_2021 · January 20

Ironside wrote: »

I appreciate all of the feedback. I'm probably just not going to play ESO PvP. I'll get my PvP niche somewhere else...

Are you on PC NA? I rarely encounter players like that on PC EU except in group BGs.

The most important rule is NOT to engage anyone by yourself, because you never know how good or bad it is. Even my noob dk or bow nb can easily delete someone who's not using pvp setup. And I can't even time burst combos.

Brakkish · January 26

@Ironside You're not wrong that it could get overwhelming for new players in BGs quickly, but I don't necessarily agree that the first order of action to remedy that must be changes to battlegrounds.

I routinely see within the same match match players destroying and surviving well, and players getting destroyed and respawning 20 secs after the last respawn. That's balance.

It's also evidence that two things can exist in the same space: experienced players and less experienced players - that's your main issue at this juncture.

My advice until you get yourself up to speed and able to better survive is to build tanky, focus on survival first, and worry about killing stuff later if that's still your thing at that point. (I played DPS for years, but I never considered DPS again once I went tank.)

You won't gain the needed experience in the respawn. Once you get more comfortable with your tankier build, layer in more offense until you find your sweet spot between survivability and offensive pressure.

There is no shame in playing tanky, especially in a time where DM only pops ~15% of the time, and all other modes cater to tanky play with objectives.

Also, there's plenty of fun to be had as a tank. Aside from the occasional kill, you get to:

Harass any target on the playing field, unhindered and unchallenged. It's nice to be able to focus someone (like a healer for example, and just get up in their business the entire match).
Bash and Interrupt targets.
Easily dominate objective modes. (doesn't get easier than this)
Spam CC
Heal Bot
Get NBs tangled up and exposed while you shrug off their initial attack (doesn't take long before they choose better targets)
Mock the ineffective damage of someone trying to kill you by sheathing your weapon while they beat on you.
Mock the ineffectiveness of an entire team's combined damage while walking in a circle around the flag as they beat on you.
Mock the ineffective damage of both teams' combined damage as you hold one button, block.
Watch teams give up on attacking you, essentially leaving you to now move about the BG freely and unhindered.
Need a change from standing on flags? Stomp squishies, new players and poorly built builds (there's no shortage of them as this thread recognizes)
Stand at map center and pretend you're a dungeon boss.
This list could be an entire page for me.

And if I can sum up the entire thing with one piece, it's this: Don't be the path of least resistance in a BG.
DD's or "kill counters" will remember you as an EZ kill if you are one, and come straight at you on arrival. Case and point; say you and I are on green team standing on the same flag with me and the entire red team heads our way; guess who's getting focussed?

Most if not everyone who plays a lot will do a quick roster scan pre-match (I have my fav's too!). I guarantee DD's are noting who their targets are and scanning for known squishies (those who just melt, have poor builds, are new etc) and scanning for "not worth my time" players, like tanks.

(and yes I realize there's a vast majority of you reading this thinking "please no, not more tanks in BG's". I get it, you want kills, and tanks are one less target on the battlefield for you. Not sorry

And until tanks are dialed back (if ever, i'm not complaining), there's really no other reason to play anything else IMO. It's godmode. In fact if Tanks VS. DD's in BG's became a thread of it's own - I'd love to chime in with supporting material and commentary how tanks are vastly superior Unless DM comes back and starts popping 90% of the time, then I'll revisit the thought

SandandStars · January 29

staying tight w your team & coordinating w them is critical

stray solo for objectives (which I still do) and youre gonna get zerged hard

most of the time, the team that plays tight dominates

and God forbid one team has a good healer, bc that’s often decisive

RetPing · January 29

Ironside wrote: »

The other opinion is, I think gear should be locked in Battleground PvP to non-collectable, non-modifiable, non-ugradable pieces. I think ALL players should be on a 100% even playing field with gear that is equipped in the start of the match or pre-loaded before the match starts.

This ^
This is how a lot of other games work. BG/Arena have specific PvP sets .
This would also solve the problem of all the broken sets in ESO that make PvP a not very funny joke.

Rhaegar75 · February 11

Ironside wrote: »

In my opinion! PvP Battlegrounds are beyond broken and really turns off a lot of players, but especially new players. All my comments are about Battlegrounds ONLY. I think open world should remain "unchanged".

For the first part, it's a very serious question and I think the answer is latency even though I have a 50-100 ping. I come up on someone and I get deleted in one hit. On the log however, it shows like 7+ hits, all different abilities from light, heavy, to special attacks. Latency? Macros? Hacks? Mods? for real, what is happening? I seriously don't think 50-100 latency is enough to cause this 100% of the time, but I am curious what people think.

The other opinion is, I think gear should be locked in Battleground PvP to non-collectable, non-modifiable, non-ugradable pieces. I think ALL players should be on a 100% even playing field with gear that is equipped in the start of the match or pre-loaded before the match starts. But regardless 100% the same--that way if you die you know it was a skill issue. I don't think the uber elite trail gear should go against new or less privileged players, that just melts them. News flash, it's not fun. Please don't say "just do better" or whatever, that's what low IQ people say and you're better than that.

The other opinion is, Battleground PvP should have skill brackets/ratings EVEN WITHIN NON-RATED! What is stopping the top players in the world from grouping up and just melting every player in every non-rated match? A competitive non-rated match is fun, graveyard camped is not. It wasn't 30 years ago, it still isn't fun. I think there should be a "Rating"for competitive and a "skill" bracket for non-competetive. If you go in a match and K: 40 - D 0 - A: 80. You should not be placed in the following match as the guy who just got K: 0 - D 40 - A: 1 by the other player. Does the other "melted" player need to work on getting better? Yes!!! 100% factually yes. But you can't get better by being melted, it's not possible.

You are making some valid points. I wish the mmr was more dynamic and led to more balanced matches.

Let the Tryhards and streamers play against each others and allow the rest of the so called normal players (no shame in having a full time job and playing casually) in a different league.

PvP is fun when the matches are balanced: I tend to get God of PvP until my char reaches the top MMR when my k/d ratio is 1/1 at best.

Some may say ‘git gud’ and train….😂😂😂😂
Absolutely no chance as I have no time to do so

Hence I really wish I could play more regularly with players who are more/less in the same skill league as me.

@Brakkish gave you some really good suggestions in terms of starting up - I’d go that way

moo_2021 · February 11

RetPing wrote: »

This is my bash combo from range.
Overload @ 0 seconds

Crystal Weapon @ 0 seconds

Shield Charge @ 0 seconds

Bash @ 0.4 seconds

Deadlands Demolisher proc

Bash @ 0.8 seconds

Overload @ 0.9 seconds

Crystal Weapon @ 0.9 seconds

Power Slam @ 1 second

How do you get overload and shield charge to fire together? I tried the same steps but overload always fires like 0.2s after, if it fires at all. Weaving with charge is always weird and often fails.
Does crystal weapon offer any value other than the initial burst? I found that I can do consistently higher dps with just LA -> spammable -> repeat bash (wait for GCD to pass) while costing less stamina, even without overload.

actually I can't keep using the powerful power slam and have to mix a mag spammable (concealed weapon or vampire's) with stam spammable (power slam or class), or there won't be enough stamina to shield charge every 6 seconds.

moo_2021 · February 11

Ironside wrote: »

For the first part, it's a very serious question and I think the answer is latency even though I have a 50-100 ping. I come up on someone and I get deleted in one hit. On the log however, it shows like 7+ hits, all different abilities from light, heavy, to special attacks. Latency? Macros? Hacks? Mods? for real, what is happening? I seriously don't think 50-100 latency is enough to cause this 100% of the time, but I am curious what people think.

This is my opening move. 7 attacks amounted to only 10k on him, but it could have been 20k and into execute range. Stun failed and he's running around a tree, possibly backed by their 2 healers.

I can't do light + heavy together, but if you're not built tanky like that guy (or most of frequent pvp players), have 30k+ HP or stun immunity, this could have been a death sentence before you break free.

A typical 2h swing + ha stun is also a death sentence, except it'd cost nothing and if you survive and go back healing he'd just repeat again.

PS: my gears are crafted + pvp, nothing special. And I'm far from a pro, don't even know how to run in circles while maintaining aim (like that guy I hit).

PS: now you should realize 7 hits are in fact on the very low end.

StarOfElyon · March 27

Ironside wrote: »

In my opinion! PvP Battlegrounds are beyond broken and really turns off a lot of players, but especially new players. All my comments are about Battlegrounds ONLY. I think open world should remain "unchanged".

For the first part, it's a very serious question and I think the answer is latency even though I have a 50-100 ping. I come up on someone and I get deleted in one hit. On the log however, it shows like 7+ hits, all different abilities from light, heavy, to special attacks. Latency? Macros? Hacks? Mods? for real, what is happening? I seriously don't think 50-100 latency is enough to cause this 100% of the time, but I am curious what people think.

The other opinion is, I think gear should be locked in Battleground PvP to non-collectable, non-modifiable, non-ugradable pieces. I think ALL players should be on a 100% even playing field with gear that is equipped in the start of the match or pre-loaded before the match starts. But regardless 100% the same--that way if you die you know it was a skill issue. I don't think the uber elite trail gear should go against new or less privileged players, that just melts them. News flash, it's not fun. Please don't say "just do better" or whatever, that's what low IQ people say and you're better than that.

The other opinion is, Battleground PvP should have skill brackets/ratings EVEN WITHIN NON-RATED! What is stopping the top players in the world from grouping up and just melting every player in every non-rated match? A competitive non-rated match is fun, graveyard camped is not. It wasn't 30 years ago, it still isn't fun. I think there should be a "Rating"for competitive and a "skill" bracket for non-competetive. If you go in a match and K: 40 - D 0 - A: 80. You should not be placed in the following match as the guy who just got K: 0 - D 40 - A: 1 by the other player. Does the other "melted" player need to work on getting better? Yes!!! 100% factually yes. But you can't get better by being melted, it's not possible.

Yeah PvP in this game can be a difficult experience, especially of you're like me and prefer not to use proc sets. To me, it's no wonder so many streamers have quit. I gave update 41 a shot but I didn't enjoy battle grounds at all tonight. Think that'll be enough PvP for me for a good while.