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Ball groups ruining fun in Cyrodil
r34lian
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From couple of days DC is running ball groups and basically they just farm and not do objective. They're ruining the fun and experience then add the status of server and frequent disconnect. It is not fun 
2000 CP • 18 Maxed Characters • 6 Altmers • 7 Redguards • Necromancer Orc • Warden Dunmer • DK Nord • DK Imperial • Templar Breton
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RetPing✭✭✭✭✭A ball group is just a single blob. Just ignore them and go somewhere else.
They only crave easy kills, if you dont give them those they will bore and go away.16 -
Aerin✭✭✭I've talked about this in another topic. It makes absolutely no sense to put PvE skills in PvP maps simply so that these players can be massacred by PvP players. Zenimax seems to think it's fun for PvP players to kill players who have no interest in PvP whatsoever. Frankly, I don't understand this choice! I know several PvP servers where players are penalized and some even end up having their accounts banned for "farming" other players just to climb the PvP ranking or to get more kills and be seen as PvP gods when in reality, they just farmed players who weren't even moving. Here in ESO, it's the opposite. Zenimax forces PvP players to farm PvE players who have no interest whatsoever. And in the end, everyone is satisfied! PvP players are all happy because they killed completely noob players, and Zenimax is happy because, according to them, PvP zones are full of action and fights! Lol What sense does this make!?
Of course, many PvP players will say: 'We also don't like PvE and we're forced to go to PvE.' That's correct and I understand. But it's up to PvP players to request that everything necessary for PvP be implemented in actions, areas, or maps exclusively for PvP.
Killing players in PvP zones who have no interest in PvP is frustrating for those who die and should be for everyone who engages in and enjoys PvP. Unfortunately, the majority of players consider themselves superior to others in PvP just because they managed to kill (farm) 100 in a single day. Powerful stuff!13 -
Michaelkeir✭✭✭✭✭From couple of days DC is running ball groups and basically they just farm and not do objective. They're ruining the fun and experience then add the status of server and frequent disconnect. It is not fun
Run a Bomb build. I’ve seen 1 or 2 bombers destroy whole ball groups in seconds. Hell I was on the receiving end and I just found it fascinating that they could demolish that many people in but a few seconds. Decided to roll my mag-nb into one.
Unless you talking about those groups of 3-4 people running around a keep that keeps line of sighting to build up their ultimate and turn around and sync their ultimates up to destroy those attacking. Heck those 3-4 people usually end up bombing those same ball groups of 15-20 people.
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Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I've talked about this in another topic. It makes absolutely no sense to put PvE skills in PvP maps simply so that these players can be massacred by PvP players. Zenimax seems to think it's fun for PvP players to kill players who have no interest in PvP whatsoever. Frankly, I don't understand this choice! I know several PvP servers where players are penalized and some even end up having their accounts banned for "farming" other players just to climb the PvP ranking or to get more kills and be seen as PvP gods when in reality, they just farmed players who weren't even moving. Here in ESO, it's the opposite. Zenimax forces PvP players to farm PvE players who have no interest whatsoever. And in the end, everyone is satisfied! PvP players are all happy because they killed completely noob players, and Zenimax is happy because, according to them, PvP zones are full of action and fights! Lol What sense does this make!?
Of course, many PvP players will say: 'We also don't like PvE and we're forced to go to PvE.' That's correct and I understand. But it's up to PvP players to request that everything necessary for PvP be implemented in actions, areas, or maps exclusively for PvP.
Killing players in PvP zones who have no interest in PvP is frustrating for those who die and should be for everyone who engages in and enjoys PvP. Unfortunately, the majority of players consider themselves superior to others in PvP just because they managed to kill (farm) 100 in a single day. Powerful stuff!
This has nothing to do with the subject of this thread. Many PVPers who enjoy objective-focused gameplay and playing the campaign also dislike ball groups, because said ball groups have a tendency to just farm kills/AP without contributing meaningfully to the campaign, using set/skill combinations that cause maximum irritation (see: Dark Convergence plus necro/arcanist ults). PVEers aren’t in Cyrodiil dealing with ball groups for the 48 weeks of the year that aren’t devoted to MYM — PVPers are. Your complaints are better made in one of the many entitled PVE vs PVP threads that always pop up during this event.Edited by Aurielle on February 25, 2024 12:43PM17 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Michaelkeir wrote: »From couple of days DC is running ball groups and basically they just farm and not do objective. They're ruining the fun and experience then add the status of server and frequent disconnect. It is not fun
Run a Bomb build. I’ve seen 1 or 2 bombers destroy whole ball groups in seconds. Hell I was on the receiving end and I just found it fascinating that they could demolish that many people in but a few seconds. Decided to roll my mag-nb into one.
Unless you talking about those groups of 3-4 people running around a keep that keeps line of sighting to build up their ultimate and turn around and sync their ultimates up to destroy those attacking. Heck those 3-4 people usually end up bombing those same ball groups of 15-20 people.
For every successful bomb attempt on a good ball group, there are probably dozens of failed attempts. Bombers have great success against large groups that are coordinated in the sense that they’re all in groups and using a single voice chat, but have less success against true good and experienced ball groups using carefully selected armor sets and class/skill combinations with insane amounts of constant cross healing. If all it took to effectively control ball groups was a few well-placed bombs, ball groups would not be as vilified as they are, as each faction has a number of very strong bombers in all campaigns.
The only truly effective counter to a good ball group (edit: assuming there aren’t enough non-ball groups online to counter them by faction stacking) is to either (a) avoid them or (b) fight them with a strong, coordinated anti-ball group. If you’re doing option b, then you aren’t really playing campaign objectives either — your sole purpose is to just harass ball groups. There aren’t enough of those groups out there, alas. Maybe we’d have more of them if ZOS increased the pop caps, so that Cyrodiil wasn’t just coordinated ball groups vs coordinated objective/campaign groups, but that’s another issue completely…
Edited by Aurielle on February 25, 2024 1:07PM4 -
Four_Fingers✭✭✭✭✭
✭Our organized group, which you call inaccurately a "ball" group has no interest in event questers, not enough AP.
We do focus on large alliance stacking zergs and other ball group rivals, that is where the AP is.
Cyrodiil was designed for group play and is one of the most fun aspects of it.
And contrary to the misinformation that is spread we capture keeps and contribute to alliance campaign efforts.
As to spamming abilities, only noob groups do that as it is a total waste of resources.
The 4-man tower farming groups are not "ball" groups.
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Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Four_Fingers wrote: »Our organized group, which you call inaccurately a "ball" group has no interest in event questers, not enough AP.
We do focus on large alliance stacking zergs and other ball group rivals, that is where the AP is.
Cyrodiil was designed for group play and is one of the most fun aspects of it.
And contrary to the misinformation that is spread we capture keeps and contribute to alliance campaign efforts.
As to spamming abilities, only noob groups do that as it is a total waste of resources.
The 4-man tower farming groups are not "ball" groups.
I expect OP is referring to the 12 player ball groups that never siege, never defend or capture important keeps, and instead spend the majority of their time running around on keep walls or running around in circles inside keeps, baiting or forcibly pulling players into kill zones solely to aggravate them and farm AP until there’s no one left to kill, or until people give up and go elsewhere. These ball groups often give a wide berth to other ball groups in the opposing alliances (even an opposing ball group inside the same keep…) to target the less organized players they’ve chosen to farm.
A coordinated, organized group that actually plays the campaign is just a tight, well-composed group, not a ball group. Organized groups do unfortunately (and unfairly) get lumped in with ball groups. They can be hard to distinguish sometimes, as they use some of the same set combos commonly used by ball groups.
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r34lian✭✭✭✭✭
✭Four_Fingers wrote: »Our organized group, which you call inaccurately a "ball" group has no interest in event questers, not enough AP.
We do focus on large alliance stacking zergs and other ball group rivals, that is where the AP is.
Cyrodiil was designed for group play and is one of the most fun aspects of it.
And contrary to the misinformation that is spread we capture keeps and contribute to alliance campaign efforts.
As to spamming abilities, only noob groups do that as it is a total waste of resources.
The 4-man tower farming groups are not "ball" groups.
I expect OP is referring to the 12 player ball groups that never siege, never defend or capture important keeps, and instead spend the majority of their time running around on keep walls or running around in circles inside keeps, baiting or forcibly pulling players into kill zones solely to aggravate them and farm AP until there’s no one left to kill, or until people give up and go elsewhere. These ball groups often give a wide berth to other ball groups in the opposing alliances (even an opposing ball group inside the same keep…) to target the less organized players they’ve chosen to farm.
A coordinated, organized group that actually plays the campaign is just a tight, well-composed group, not a ball group. Organized groups do unfortunately (and unfairly) get lumped in with ball groups. They can be hard to distinguish sometimes, as they use some of the same set combos commonly used by ball groups.
exactly2000 CP • 18 Maxed Characters • 6 Altmers • 7 Redguards • Necromancer Orc • Warden Dunmer • DK Nord • DK Imperial • Templar Breton0 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
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The problem is that Ball Groups follow players. They go where players are to farm AP. So, if go to capture keep, or defend a keep to get AP, chances are Ball Group will arrive sooner or later (easy to tell, as stuff becomes laggy if Ball Group is near). The bigger the fight or AP deff tick the grater chance of Ball Group showing up. And it is not like you can easily kill them. Ball Groups tend to abuse stacking mechanics (healing & synergy) so they are close to unkillable. Even well placed multiple sieges hitting at once tend to not work vs them. So, your only option is to either go somewhere else, or maybe hide till they will go away, but your time getting the AP is wasted either way.A ball group is just a single blob. Just ignore them and go somewhere else.
They only crave easy kills, if you dont give them those they will bore and go away.11 -
RetPing✭✭✭✭✭Four_Fingers wrote: »Siege hurts, trust me.
And having healers and group builds is not abuse.
Hots stacking. Broken mechanic.
No exploit. Just very bad game design.
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AnduinTryggva✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭From couple of days DC is running ball groups and basically they just farm and not do objective. They're ruining the fun and experience then add the status of server and frequent disconnect. It is not fun
EP is also quite famous for some of their player farming ball groups all based on dark convergence set.
I don't understand why ZOS does not provide a countermeasure against such things when they put in such sets.0 -
RetPing✭✭✭✭✭Four_Fingers wrote: »Yep just like damage dealers stacking DOTs.
Hots are smart. You cast echoing vigor or regen and they will automatically go to people near you.
Dots are mostly single player or aoe.
So they are totally different.
Ball group relay on a broken mechanic and only their member say different
I dont understand why you seem to need to
defend it, the mechanic is broken but as I said is no exploit so enjoy it. No need to be on the defensive.
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Stridig✭✭✭✭✭
✭Four_Fingers wrote: »Yep just like damage dealers stacking DOTs.
If it were "just like damage dealers stacking DOT's" why don't we see ball groups running around spamming embers then heal dumping in choke points?Edited by Stridig on February 25, 2024 6:43PMEnemy to many
Friend to all4 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭AnduinTryggva wrote: »From couple of days DC is running ball groups and basically they just farm and not do objective. They're ruining the fun and experience then add the status of server and frequent disconnect. It is not fun
EP is also quite famous for some of their player farming ball groups all based on dark convergence set.
I don't understand why ZOS does not provide a countermeasure against such things when they put in such sets.
Sad thing is, Dark Convergence was supposed to counter ballgroups. Whenever ZOS adds a ball group counter designed to take out players who are closely stacked together, the ball groups just end up using the set that was designed to counter them.
A set that deals increasing amounts of damage to multiple closely grouped targets based on the number of hots they have on them at any given time could possibly work… but the sheer number of inevitable complaints (from ball groups and non-ball groups alike) would probably break the forums.5 -
Four_Fingers✭✭✭✭✭
✭Who says DKs in the group don't?
Using isn't spamming by the way.
You guys claim you don't see a lot of things.
I welcome nerfing heal stacking just to hear your next excuse why you can't beat an organized group.
But if they do nerf heal stacking be prepared for incoming countless complaint threads of Trial and Dungeon PvE groups.Edited by Four_Fingers on February 25, 2024 7:10PM3 -
Vulkunne✭✭✭✭✭
✭The problem here is the uhh fast moving tornado group that wrecks virtually everything in its path has no real comparative equal outside of perhaps something of the same jib. As it were, pugs (like casual players, new folks, myself and most everyone else) stand virtually little chance against these groups ability to collectively pool their skills and resources. Doesn't mean they can't be killed by one of us however telling people we need to coordinate our efforts against these fast-moving organized war machines is really kind of reaching. [Snip]
And that's the issue, is the kind of coordination required to bring down these ball groups really does not exist outside of elements of another ball group that can come from people who already possess the experience and gear. With that said, ball groups can be stopped and sometimes the key to their undoing can be one person standing up to them, whether that be a bomber or someone on cold fire ballista, hitting them relentlessly giving no quarter and not taking no for an answer.
But saying we all need to 'coordinate' I think is a poor excuse and is just kin to blaming the victimes for not being uhhh 'coordinated' enough to do something about their own problems. I'm just tired of a few people saying that in zone chat when after saying they do nothing to help or oganize a response, nothing. In fact, instead of telling the rest of us we're not coordinated enough it might be more helpful for those folks to actually try to help us remove the ball group itself.
[Edited for Inappropriate Content]Edited by ZOS_Volpe on March 6, 2024 3:42PMToday Victory is mine. Long live the Empire.8 -
RaikaNA✭✭✭✭✭
✭Michaelkeir wrote: »From couple of days DC is running ball groups and basically they just farm and not do objective. They're ruining the fun and experience then add the status of server and frequent disconnect. It is not fun
Run a Bomb build. I’ve seen 1 or 2 bombers destroy whole ball groups in seconds. Hell I was on the receiving end and I just found it fascinating that they could demolish that many people in but a few seconds. Decided to roll my mag-nb into one.
Unless you talking about those groups of 3-4 people running around a keep that keeps line of sighting to build up their ultimate and turn around and sync their ultimates up to destroy those attacking. Heck those 3-4 people usually end up bombing those same ball groups of 15-20 people.
The problem with that is that ball groups became tankier and stronger over the years. ZOS releases sets without thinking of the consequences. .. perfect example of plaguebreak, dark convergence, and rush of agony. Also Ballgroups these days are walking around with 36kHP and up... I've seen some walking around with 40k HP. Strange how you can have your cake and eat it too... what kind of sets gives you both max tankiness and raw damage at the same time? I've been playing the game since the launch date, and so far I can't find any set combo that gives me both.
It is becoming quite difficult to bomb a ball group as a solo player. Perhabs if you had a 4 man with 2 dedicated bombers and 2 dedicated Sorc negate spammers... yeah you may stand a chance.Edited by RaikaNA on February 26, 2024 3:14AM7 -
RetPing✭✭✭✭✭Four_Fingers wrote: »Who says DKs in the group don't?
Using isn't spamming by the way.
You guys claim you don't see a lot of things.
I welcome nerfing heal stacking just to hear your next excuse why you can't beat an organized group.
But if they do nerf heal stacking be prepared for incoming countless complaint threads of Trial and Dungeon PvE groups.
You seem to always want to change what people say to defend the broken mechanic ball group crutch on.
We asked many time to limit heal stacking WITH BATTLE SPIRIT.Edited by RetPing on February 26, 2024 7:31AM4 -
Estin✭✭✭✭✭
✭They should make it so you can only have 1 echoing vigor effect on you while battle spirit is active. Seeing those groups of 8-12 players who become tightly knit and spam echoing vigor every 3-4 seconds so they're immortal is pretty BS. They can eventually die, but it takes too long to get rid of them. Not to mention they're one of the reasons why cyrodiil is so laggy. I don't know why this has never been addressed, and I'm hoping it's not because they can't do it or because the PvPers at ZOS use the same method. Hopefully the PvP update in Q4 tackles cross healing. There's no skill involved in it.3 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭sh4d0wh4z3 wrote: »They should make it so you can only have 1 echoing vigor effect on you while battle spirit is active. Seeing those groups of 8-12 players who become tightly knit and spam echoing vigor every 3-4 seconds so they're immortal is pretty BS. They can eventually die, but it takes too long to get rid of them. Not to mention they're one of the reasons why cyrodiil is so laggy. I don't know why this has never been addressed, and I'm hoping it's not because they can't do it or because the PvPers at ZOS use the same method. Hopefully the PvP update in Q4 tackles cross healing. There's no skill involved in it.
I agree with you re: limiting stacks of HOTs, disagree re: limiting cross healing. Cross healing is definitely part of the problem, but it’s sort of a necessary evil. Without cross healing, one has to be grouped at all times to help other players who are getting piled on. That’s not always realistic. There are often times of the day when no one is running groups in my various guilds, so I have to just follow the action on the map. Not being able to heal others (or be healed) outside of a group gives excessive advantage to any guild groups or ball groups out there with dedicated healers.
But yeah, there’s really no reason why anyone needs so many multiple stacks of Vigor, Regen, etc. active on them at all times. Easy solution is to have battle spirit limit HOT stacks active on a player to two per skill. This means more dying all around, but this isn’t a bad thing, as it affects everyone. It also doesn’t break the functionality of certain skill morphs (which is what would happen if you could only have one HOT stack active per skill).
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Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Michaelkeir wrote: »From couple of days DC is running ball groups and basically they just farm and not do objective. They're ruining the fun and experience then add the status of server and frequent disconnect. It is not fun
Run a Bomb build. I’ve seen 1 or 2 bombers destroy whole ball groups in seconds. Hell I was on the receiving end and I just found it fascinating that they could demolish that many people in but a few seconds. Decided to roll my mag-nb into one.
Unless you talking about those groups of 3-4 people running around a keep that keeps line of sighting to build up their ultimate and turn around and sync their ultimates up to destroy those attacking. Heck those 3-4 people usually end up bombing those same ball groups of 15-20 people.
and there are organized groups that can take out these so-called ball groups. It is a matter of the players and groups building for success and having a leader directing them. Ofc, being on comms is a must to be a well-organized group.
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Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
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The reduction of stacking of "same type" healing / positive effects to 2 or 3 would solve a lot of issues and it would be pretty much a nerf that only Ball Groups would feel.Four_Fingers wrote: »Who says DKs in the group don't?
Using isn't spamming by the way.
You guys claim you don't see a lot of things.
I welcome nerfing heal stacking just to hear your next excuse why you can't beat an organized group.
But if they do nerf heal stacking be prepared for incoming countless complaint threads of Trial and Dungeon PvE groups.
You seem to always want to change what people say to defend the broken mechanic ball group crutch on.
We asked many time to limit heal stacking WITH BATTLE SPIRIT.
The thing is this imho something that will never happen. I am playing this game since 2014 and so far, the only nerf to ball groups that occurred was the max group size reduction. But this had more to do with Cyro population limit being ninja nerfed. I mean imagine making 2 full groups and it is 2/3 of alliance population lol.
Other than that, over the years, since 2014 it were pretty much only ball groups buffs. There wasn't a single "direct" nerf that would target - nerf only PvP group enviroment. What is weird is there are already certain mechanics that are ment to reduce effectiveness of things so they would not be too strong in a group. Sets like Pale Order or Rallying Cry are actually weaker the larger the group is. So it is not like ZOS does not know how to code this or something. For whatever reason they are simply unwilling to do so. And this is weird since for the most part when certain playstyle becomes too strong it gets nerfed (Like Snipe ranged ganking for example). But Ball Group playstyle for whatever reason is "privileged", despite being grossly op & dominant. If it was not adressed since 2014, I think it will never be, as apparently, maybe ZOS considers Ball Groups to be their target PvP audience and they are balancing the game for them.Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on February 26, 2024 2:03PM4 -
Neoauspex✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lady_Light wrote: »Siege, find a sorc to negate, and... azureblight.
First two work, azureblight doesn't unfortunately. Wish it did0 -
loosej✭✭✭✭✭I also don't think that heal stacking is going anywhere. However, knowing there's something coming for PvP in Q4, and knowing how zos likes to fix things by adding more options, here's my hope:- a new game mode, something between a battleground and Cyrodiil
- 12v12 (please no 12v12v12), separate queue for premades and pugs
- each side starts with 1 keep, some outposts in the center of the map that give buffs, siege enabled
- mounts disabled, all travel on foot (bypasses the in-combat bug)
- maybe add a mechanic where groups of guards spawn in the keep and start moving towards the enemy keep, fighting along the way, seems to work well in other games
- winner is the side that claims all keeps
Consistency: It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup (source: despair.com)1 -
Roztlin45✭✭✭✭✭Dark Convergence + Fear = AP farming and game-breaking. People have been farming AP for a while now, racking up hundreds of thousands of AP to convert to gold. I have seen them take the game down for extra points in trials yet this gets ignored. LOL extremely hard to counter this set and combo.4 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dark Convergence + Fear = AP farming and game-breaking. People have been farming AP for a while now, racking up hundreds of thousands of AP to convert to gold. I have seen them take the game down for extra points in trials yet this gets ignored. LOL extremely hard to counter this set and combo.
Calling Dark Convergence game breaking is a bit of an exaggeration. Is it annoying? You bet! Dark Convergence can be countered quite easily with the Nibenay Bay Battlereeve set and by simply breaking free, blocking/walking out of the circle. The issue is that more people have to just suck it up and wear Nibenay, and not everyone is willing to drop their preferred monster set to equip it. All my PVP characters wear it, and I wish more would. We’d all see faaaar fewer Vicious Death recaps.1 -
Roztlin45✭✭✭✭✭Dark Convergence + Fear = AP farming and game-breaking. People have been farming AP for a while now, racking up hundreds of thousands of AP to convert to gold. I have seen them take the game down for extra points in trials yet this gets ignored. LOL extremely hard to counter this set and combo.
Calling Dark Convergence game breaking is a bit of an exaggeration. Is it annoying? You bet! Dark Convergence can be countered quite easily with the Nibenay Bay Battlereeve set and by simply breaking free, blocking/walking out of the circle. The issue is that more people have to just suck it up and wear Nibenay, and not everyone is willing to drop their preferred monster set to equip it. All my PVP characters wear it, and I wish more would. We’d all see faaaar fewer Vicious Death recaps.
I guess it is so easy to counter that TONs of bomb video shows dozens of dead bodies over and over. 90% of the time it works to kill everyone and if in a group almost every time. I understand that people want to defend it so AP farming can resume unabated. The only reason I care is that it is a real turn-off to people just entering the PVP environment.1
